Steve Pugh

Discussion in 'HTML' started by Richard, Nov 12, 2003.

  1. Richard

    Richard Guest

    Why do you always put down somebody's use of something you don't personally
    like?
    Such as using mm instead of px or em's.
    What browsers do not understand what a mm is?
    If it's not displayed correctly using mm, it's the fault of the writer of
    the browser who failed to implement it correctly.
    Who are you to decide what a person will do their website?
     
    Richard, Nov 12, 2003
    #1
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  2. Richard

    Chris Morris Guest

    "Richard" <> writes:
    > Why do you always put down somebody's use of something you don't personally
    > like?


    Well, if you don't personally like it because it's a bad idea, it's
    reasonable. For example, I don't like websites that break, therefore
    writing websites that break should be advised against.

    > Such as using mm instead of px or em's.


    Using em or (for some uses px) is the better option for screen media,
    because browsers support them better. Using mm for print media may in
    some cases be better.

    > What browsers do not understand what a mm is?


    Which browsers do? Very few if any get the monitor size (which won't
    be available even via the OS a lot of the time), which is necessary to
    scale mm on screen (and related, such as projection, tv) to be an
    actual mm.

    Quite a few support it for print, I expect.

    > If it's not displayed correctly using mm, it's the fault of the writer of
    > the browser who failed to implement it correctly.


    Well, if you want to write websites that don't work in common web browsers,
    go right ahead.

    > Who are you to decide what a person will do their website?


    Feel free at all times to ignore good advice (like "use code that
    browsers can understand") but don't complain when it does break.

    --
    Chris
     
    Chris Morris, Nov 12, 2003
    #2
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  3. Richard wrote:

    > Why do you always put down somebody's use of something you don't personally
    > like?


    I'll put my two cents in, even though I'm not Steve Pugh.

    If not one made comments based on what they personally liked or
    disliked, no one would say anything. All comments are based on opinion.

    > Such as using mm instead of px or em's.


    Mms are a physical size (they have to do with the measure of real
    objects). Computers use pixels to measure things, and the physical size
    of a pixel depends on the monitor size, resolution, and other things.

    To render millimeters, centimeters, points, and inches on a screen, a
    browser needs to know how to translate them into pixels. Most can be
    configured to do so, but most visitors don't.

    Even if the browser is configured correctly, they will not resize with
    text. If the element contains text and has its width or height set with
    absolute units, it will break for certain text sizes.

    > Who are you to decide what a person will do their website?


    No one. Usenet is about opinions, and it's your choice if you want to
    follow his.
     
    Leif K-Brooks, Nov 12, 2003
    #3
  4. Richard

    PeterMcC Guest

    Richard wrote:
    > Why do you always put down somebody's use of something you don't
    > personally like?
    > Such as using mm instead of px or em's.
    > What browsers do not understand what a mm is?
    > If it's not displayed correctly using mm, it's the fault of the
    > writer of the browser who failed to implement it correctly.
    > Who are you to decide what a person will do their website?


    Might I suggest that this would be more appropriate by email?

    --
    PeterMcC
    If you feel that any of the above is incorrect,
    inappropriate or offensive in any way,
    please ignore it and accept my apologies.
     
    PeterMcC, Nov 12, 2003
    #4
  5. Richard

    Steve Pugh Guest

    Chris Morris <> wrote:
    >"Richard" <> writes:
    >>
    >> Why do you always put down somebody's use of something you don't personally
    >> like?


    Hi Richard, for some reason your posts don't show up on my news server
    any more. Maybe someone from Pipex doesn't like you.
    So part from the parts Chris has quoted I have no idea what you've
    said to/about me.

    >> Such as using mm instead of px or em's.

    >
    >Using em or (for some uses px) is the better option for screen media,
    >because browsers support them better. Using mm for print media may in
    >some cases be better.


    I'll second what Chris says.

    mm are a physical measure 20mm should equal 20mm when you hold a ruler
    up to the screen or along a print out. It rarely does.

    Pixels (assuming the common browser definition of px = screen pixel
    rather than the CSS spec definition) are useful for items that have an
    inherent size in pixels, such as bitmap images.

    em are useful for items that are derived from the font size, such as
    margins and padding.

    >> What browsers do not understand what a mm is?


    Really understand? Very few.

    Most play silly games with physical units (mm, inches, points, picas,
    etc.) and convert them to pixels not based on the actual screen
    resolution (i.e. the number of pixels in a measurable distance on the
    screen) but by a virtual resolution (normally 96dpi - in other words
    they assume there an inch is 96 pixels long regardless of how many
    pixels it actually is).

    But that's actually beside the point, even if all browsers did get
    physical units correct, or even if they all got them wrong in the same
    way they would still not be suitable for use on the screen. A margin
    of 1 inch might be fine on a desktop, but would be ludicrous on a
    palmtop.

    You will of course remember this screenshot from when you were using
    mm in your stargate page: http://steve.pugh.net/test/n7-screenshot.jpg

    That misalignment was down to your use of mm (or was it cm) units.
    The relationship between physical units and pixels was different on
    your computer than it was on mine. By mixing physical units and pixels
    you made sure that the page would fall apart for some number of users.

    >> If it's not displayed correctly using mm, it's the fault of the writer of
    >> the browser who failed to implement it correctly.


    Chances are that most authors who usephysical units don't understand
    what they should mean, let alone what they may do on actual browsers.

    >> Who are you to decide what a person will do their website?


    You seem to think I'm more important than I am. I'm just giving advice
    based on knowledge and experience.

    No need to reply, I almost certainly won't be able to see it.

    Steve

    --
    "My theories appal you, my heresies outrage you,
    I never answer letters and you don't like my tie." - The Doctor

    Steve Pugh <> <http://steve.pugh.net/>
     
    Steve Pugh, Nov 12, 2003
    #5
  6. PeterMcC wrote:

    > Might I suggest that this would be more appropriate by email?


    Probably, but where's the fun in that?

    --
    frostie
    http://brightonfixedodds.net
     
    Robert Frost-Bridges, Nov 12, 2003
    #6
  7. Richard

    Andy Dingley Guest

    On Wed, 12 Nov 2003 10:42:03 -0600, "Richard"
    <> wrote:

    >Why do you always put down somebody's use of something you don't personally
    >like?


    Because it's wrong. It's not "subjectively alternatively valid", it's
    just wrong. This isn't post modernism, it's a technical subject

    >Such as using mm instead of px or em's.


    >What browsers do not understand what a mm is?


    You're expressing a lack of clue here. The problem with mm is not
    because they're "not understood", it's because they're well
    understood, and they have a well-defined behaviour that's not useful
    (in most cases). Now if you don't understand this, go read the
    newgroup, because it has been explained a great many times already.


    --
    Die Gotterspammerung - Junkmail of the Gods
     
    Andy Dingley, Nov 12, 2003
    #7
  8. Richard

    Andrew Tang Guest

    "Richard" <> wrote in message
    news:...
    > Why do you always put down somebody's use of something you don't

    personally
    > like?
    > Such as using mm instead of px or em's.
    > What browsers do not understand what a mm is?
    > If it's not displayed correctly using mm, it's the fault of the writer of
    > the browser who failed to implement it correctly.
    > Who are you to decide what a person will do their website?


    I wouldn't worry too much about it. I do agree with all the other replies
    posted but I don't think that's the point here. I think its mainly how the
    suggestion is worded usually, and sometimes it can be misinterpreted as
    cold, and sometimes a bit condenscending or patronising.
    I've certainly done that (at both spetrums) accidently and wasn't my
    intention. I guess we have to be aware of how we phrase our answers, so I
    wouldn't take it too personally. As Steve Pugh saids himself, you making him
    to be far more important than he really is (no offense Steve :) ).

    And relax.

    Andy
     
    Andrew Tang, Nov 13, 2003
    #8
  9. Richard

    informant Guest

    "Richard" <> wrote in message
    news:...
    > Why do you always put down somebody's use of something you don't

    personally
    > like?


    Maybe he knows what he's talking about, unlike the K00k from Wisconsin.

    > Such as using mm instead of px or em's.
    > What browsers do not understand what a mm is?
    > If it's not displayed correctly using mm, it's the fault of the writer of
    > the browser who failed to implement it correctly.


    Dolt.

    > Who are you to decide what a person will do their website?


    Pipe down, Mr. Bullis.


    Path:
    sn-us!sn-xit-06!sn-xit-08!supernews.com!38.144.126.75.MISMATCH!feed1.newsrea
    der.com!newsreader.com!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news.
    he.net!cyclone-sf.pbi.net!129.250.175.17!pln-w!spln!dex!extra.newsguy.com!ne
    wsp.newsguy.com!enews3
    From: "Richard" <>
    Newsgroups: alt.html
    Subject: Steve Pugh
    Date: Wed, 12 Nov 2003 10:42:03 -0600
    Organization: http://extra.newsguy.com
    Lines: 10
    Message-ID: <>
    NNTP-Posting-Host: p-862.newsdawg.com
    X-Priority: 3
    X-MSMail-Priority: Normal
    X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1106
    X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106
    X-No-Archive: yes
    FL-Build: Fidolook 2002 (SL) 6.0.2600.78 - 24/10/2002 21:18:29
    Xref: sn-us alt.html:437647
     
    informant, Nov 14, 2003
    #9
  10. Richard

    informant Guest

    "Chris Morris" <> wrote in message
    news:...
    > "Richard" <> writes:
    > > Why do you always put down somebody's use of something you don't

    personally
    > > like?

    >
    > Well, if you don't personally like it because it's a bad idea, it's
    > reasonable. For example, I don't like websites that break, therefore
    > writing websites that break should be advised against.


    Good advice, hence Bullis is against it.

    > > Such as using mm instead of px or em's.

    >
    > Using em or (for some uses px) is the better option for screen media,
    > because browsers support them better. Using mm for print media may in
    > some cases be better.
    >
    > > What browsers do not understand what a mm is?

    >
    > Which browsers do? Very few if any get the monitor size (which won't
    > be available even via the OS a lot of the time), which is necessary to
    > scale mm on screen (and related, such as projection, tv) to be an
    > actual mm.
    >
    > Quite a few support it for print, I expect.
    >
    > > If it's not displayed correctly using mm, it's the fault of the writer

    of
    > > the browser who failed to implement it correctly.

    >
    > Well, if you want to write websites that don't work in common web

    browsers,
    > go right ahead.


    Oh boy. That's all Bullis needs. Permission to write crap.

    > > Who are you to decide what a person will do their website?

    >
    > Feel free at all times to ignore good advice


    The Richard Bullis Mantra.

    >(like "use code that
    > browsers can understand") but don't complain when it does break.
     
    informant, Nov 14, 2003
    #10
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