Still Loving Python

Discussion in 'Python' started by Kamilche, Dec 13, 2005.

  1. Kamilche

    Kamilche Guest

    I switched to Python a couple years ago, and haven't looked back. I've
    used Python for many applications, including several commercial plugins
    for Poser. I don't post on here much, because I don't need to; working
    in Python is so obvious and easy, it's rare that I get stumped by the
    limitations and need help from others. I sometimes read the group to
    help others, but not very often. I just wanted to let you all know that
    I'm still here, and even though I'm not vocal, I DO still use Python on
    a daily basis.

    Python still suffers from the lack of a good GUI, which I believe is
    slowing its acceptance by the programming community at large. (I know
    about tKinter, no need to post links to it, thanks.)

    --Kamilche
     
    Kamilche, Dec 13, 2005
    #1
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  2. Il 2005-12-13, Kamilche <> ha scritto:
    > Python still suffers from the lack of a good GUI, which I believe is
    > slowing its acceptance by the programming community at large. (I know
    > about tKinter, no need to post links to it, thanks.)


    Let me say I'm not agree, I'm developing a lot of GUI based stuff in PyGTK
    and I'll never look back. The API is not perfect but suits our needs. I'm
    a Gnome lover and hence having Gnome-style GUIs it's awesome. Add the plus
    that is easy and powerful and you have a good toolkit to work on. I think
    that the same thing can be said about the QT-side (not sure about wx,
    don't like it at all).

    Python *does* have GUI, you only have to decide which one you prefer.

    ps. the customer wants Windows as a platform, we develop on Linux using
    PyGTK, postgre and sql server for some old data. This is the true power of
    cross-platform :)


    --
    Lawrence - http://www.oluyede.org/blog
    "Anyone can freely use whatever he wants but the light at the end
    of the tunnel for most of his problems is Python"
     
    Lawrence Oluyede, Dec 13, 2005
    #2
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  3. Kamilche

    Ivan Voras Guest

    Lawrence Oluyede wrote:
    > Python *does* have GUI, you only have to decide which one you prefer.
    >
    > ps. the customer wants Windows as a platform, we develop on Linux using
    > PyGTK, postgre and sql server for some old data. This is the true power of
    > cross-platform :)


    Maybe the OP really wants a GUI builder.

    More than 5 years ago, i programmed in Visual Basic and Delphi and I
    still miss the wonderful ease of graphically creating the user interface
    in WYSIWYG mode. If you haven't tried it, you don't know what you're
    missing :)

    I only know about Glade and similar GUI builders (Boa) and they are not
    even close to the robustness & ease of use. Are there any easy GUI
    builders for any Python-supported toolkits?
     
    Ivan Voras, Dec 13, 2005
    #3
  4. Il 2005-12-13, Ivan Voras <> ha scritto:
    > More than 5 years ago, i programmed in Visual Basic and Delphi and I
    > still miss the wonderful ease of graphically creating the user interface
    > in WYSIWYG mode. If you haven't tried it, you don't know what you're
    > missing :)


    I used Delphi for some time. It's one of the best environments I've ever
    used. The point is that every toolkit works in a different way. You
    cannot have one toolkit to rule them all.

    > I only know about Glade and similar GUI builders (Boa) and they are not
    > even close to the robustness & ease of use.


    Boa is not my tool. Glade + Pygtk (or better Gazpacho) are.

    > Are there any easy GUI
    > builders for any Python-supported toolkits?


    No


    --
    Lawrence - http://www.oluyede.org/blog
    "Anyone can freely use whatever he wants but the light at the end
    of the tunnel for most of his problems is Python"
     
    Lawrence Oluyede, Dec 13, 2005
    #4
  5. Kamilche

    Benji York Guest

    Ivan Voras wrote:
    > Are there any easy GUI builders for any Python-supported toolkits?


    wxDesigner is a really good commercial product, it's pretty inexpensive,
    too. http://www.roebling.de/
    --
    Benji York
     
    Benji York, Dec 13, 2005
    #5
  6. On Tue, 13 Dec 2005 17:35:40 +0100, Ivan Voras wrote:

    > Maybe the OP really wants a GUI builder.


    > More than 5 years ago, i programmed in Visual Basic and Delphi and I
    > still miss the wonderful ease of graphically creating the user interface
    > in WYSIWYG mode. If you haven't tried it, you don't know what you're
    > missing :)


    Do you miss the 75+ attributes classes and globals as well ? I'm still
    forced to work with Delphi from time to time (though whenever I can do
    something in Python instead, I do) and it makes me want to throw up. Sure,
    the designer is nice, but when you look at the generated code...

    Sorry for the harsh tone, I just think GUI builders are *evil*. Except
    maybe for QT Designer, which has a nice model where you implement
    callbacks by subclassing the generated classes. At least you don't have to
    look at the generated code.

    Anyway, if the OP is looking for a 'Python Delphi', I think Boa
    constructor is just that. I can't stand it :)
     
    =?iso-8859-1?q?J=E9r=F4me_Laheurte?=, Dec 13, 2005
    #6
  7. Kamilche

    Steve Holden Guest

    Lawrence Oluyede wrote:
    > Il 2005-12-13, Ivan Voras <> ha scritto:
    >
    >>More than 5 years ago, i programmed in Visual Basic and Delphi and I
    >>still miss the wonderful ease of graphically creating the user interface
    >>in WYSIWYG mode. If you haven't tried it, you don't know what you're
    >>missing :)

    >
    >
    > I used Delphi for some time. It's one of the best environments I've ever
    > used. The point is that every toolkit works in a different way. You
    > cannot have one toolkit to rule them all.
    >
    >
    >>I only know about Glade and similar GUI builders (Boa) and they are not
    >>even close to the robustness & ease of use.

    >
    >
    > Boa is not my tool. Glade + Pygtk (or better Gazpacho) are.
    >
    >
    >>Are there any easy GUI
    >>builders for any Python-supported toolkits?

    >
    >
    > No
    >
    >

    There's wxDesigner. It costs money, but IMHO it's well worth the
    relatively modest price.

    regards
    Steve
    --
    Steve Holden +44 150 684 7255 +1 800 494 3119
    Holden Web LLC www.holdenweb.com
    PyCon TX 2006 www.python.org/pycon/
     
    Steve Holden, Dec 13, 2005
    #7
  8. Kamilche

    gene tani Guest

    Lawrence Oluyede wrote:
    > Il 2005-12-13, Kamilche <> ha scritto:
    > > Python still suffers from the lack of a good GUI, which I believe is
    > > slowing its acceptance by the programming community at large. (I know
    > > about tKinter, no need to post links to it, thanks.)

    >
    > Let me say I'm not agree, I'm developing a lot of GUI based stuff in PyGTK
    > and I'll never look back. The API is not perfect but suits our needs. I'm
    > a Gnome lover and hence having Gnome-style GUIs it's awesome. Add the plus
    > that is easy and powerful and you have a good toolkit to work on. I think
    > that the same thing can be said about the QT-side (not sure about wx,
    > don't like it at all).
    >
    > Python *does* have GUI, you only have to decide which one you prefer.
    >
    > ps. the customer wants Windows as a platform, we develop on Linux using
    > PyGTK, postgre and sql server for some old data. This is the true power of
    > cross-platform :)
    >
    >
    > --
    > Lawrence - http://www.oluyede.org/blog
    > "Anyone can freely use whatever he wants but the light at the end
    > of the tunnel for most of his problems is Python"


    Here are some surveys of the landscape
    http://pythonology.org/howto
    http://aspn.activestate.com/ASPN/Cookbook/Python?kwd=User
    http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Programming:Python_GUI_Programming

    http://www.awaretek.com/tutorials.html#gui
    http://python.codezoo.com/pub/category/197
    http://directory.google.com/Top/Computers/Programming/Languages/Python/Modules/GUI/
     
    gene tani, Dec 13, 2005
    #8
  9. Kamilche

    Ravi Teja Guest

    Nothing beats Delphi for the raw design speed and choices for GUI
    development. .NET is another good option. The good news is you don't
    have to loose their benefits just because we chose Python. Python for
    Delphi works quite well to get you the best of both worlds. I develop
    the app in Python as a library first (Python is great for quick
    prototyping), make my GUI in Delphi and simply call my library from it.
    Bundling Python manually into an installer can be a chore but you will
    get used to it. Once IronPython is complete, it should do the same for
    ..NET. I currently use Boo in a similar fashion.

    For simpler UIs, libglade does a great job of seperating concerns.

    > Are there any easy GUI
    > builders for any Python-supported toolkits?


    Most UI toolkits have sort of builders
    GTK - Glade
    wxWindows - wxGlade
    Fox - Fox Dialog Editor
    FLTK - Fluid
    TkInter - SpecTcl (I think I remember it exporting to Python)

    Ofcourse, none are as robust as Delphi's.
     
    Ravi Teja, Dec 13, 2005
    #9
  10. Kamilche

    Mike Meyer Guest

    Jérôme Laheurte <> writes:
    > On Tue, 13 Dec 2005 17:35:40 +0100, Ivan Voras wrote:
    >> Maybe the OP really wants a GUI builder.
    >> More than 5 years ago, i programmed in Visual Basic and Delphi and I
    >> still miss the wonderful ease of graphically creating the user interface
    >> in WYSIWYG mode. If you haven't tried it, you don't know what you're
    >> missing :)

    > Sorry for the harsh tone, I just think GUI builders are *evil*.


    I agree. I've tried a number of different gui builders. I find it much
    faster to type something like:

    ui.add_button("New", self.new)
    ui.add_button("Open", self.open)
    ui.add_button("Save", self.save)
    ui.add_button("Save As", self.save_as)

    Than have to drag four menu buttons from a pallette, then open the
    properties of each one to edit the text of the button and the callback
    entry (or whatever dance they need so you can enter the required
    text).

    > Anyway, if the OP is looking for a 'Python Delphi', I think Boa
    > constructor is just that. I can't stand it :)


    Never tried it. My experiences with GUI builders has convinced me I
    don't want anything to do with them.

    <mike
    --
    Mike Meyer <> http://www.mired.org/home/mwm/
    Independent WWW/Perforce/FreeBSD/Unix consultant, email for more information.
     
    Mike Meyer, Dec 13, 2005
    #10
  11. Kamilche

    Peter Maas Guest

    Mike Meyer schrieb:
    > I agree. I've tried a number of different gui builders. I find it much
    > faster to type something like:
    >
    > ui.add_button("New", self.new)
    > ui.add_button("Open", self.open)
    > ui.add_button("Save", self.save)
    > ui.add_button("Save As", self.save_as)
    >
    > Than have to drag four menu buttons from a pallette, then open the
    > properties of each one to edit the text of the button and the callback
    > entry (or whatever dance they need so you can enter the required
    > text).


    If you design a moderately complex UI a designer will be faster. It's
    not the speed of typing vs. dragging that matters. You see the result
    instantly and don't have to start your program, look, type code, start
    again and so on. A GUI builder is more pleasant to work with, at least
    with a good one like Delphi or Qt designer.

    It's not a good idea to do everything in code. I find it tiresome to
    create menus and toolbars by writing code. It's not as bad as creating
    an image by typing addpixel(x,y,color) a million times but it comes
    close.

    Creating visual resources visually is the direct way, creating them in
    code is a detour. Code is too lengthy and too versatile for such a
    job.

    --
    Peter Maas, Aachen, Germany
     
    Peter Maas, Dec 13, 2005
    #11
  12. I just wanted to mention that, according to the latest news from
    Ironpython's mailing list, an Ironpython plug-in for Visual Studio is
    on the works. Read on:

    Aaron Marten wrote:
    > Hi Giles,
    > I'm on the Visual Studio SDK team here at Microsoft. In
    > co-operation with the IronPython team, we're currently working on
    > integrating IronPython into Visual Studio as a sample to ship in our
    > SDK. We've just released a CTP with the first version of this here:
    >
    > http://affiliate.vsipmembers.com/downloads/41/UserFileDownload.ashx
    >
    > I also blogged a bit about the Dec CTP release of the Visual Studio

    SDK
    > here:
    > http://blogs.msdn.com/aaronmar/archive/2005/12/09/502202.aspx
    >
    > Note that right now, the integration code is in an incomplete state,

    but
    > we do have the beginnings of a project system and language service
    > working. Note that right now, the integration is only available as a
    > preview sample in the Visual Studio SDK, so you'll have to agree to

    our
    > license to get the code.
    >
    > Thanks!
    > Aaron Marten (Microsoft)
     
    Luis M. Gonzalez, Dec 13, 2005
    #12
  13. Kamilche

    DH Guest

    Ivan Voras wrote:
    > Maybe the OP really wants a GUI builder.
    >
    > More than 5 years ago, i programmed in Visual Basic and Delphi and I
    > still miss the wonderful ease of graphically creating the user interface
    > in WYSIWYG mode. If you haven't tried it, you don't know what you're
    > missing :)
    >
    > I only know about Glade and similar GUI builders (Boa) and they are not
    > even close to the robustness & ease of use. Are there any easy GUI
    > builders for any Python-supported toolkits?


    Search for QT Designer. It's the best designer you're going to find by far.
    http://www.riverbankcomputing.co.uk/pyqt/
    http://www.opendocs.org/pyqt/
    http://www.pragmaticprogrammer.com/titles/ctrubyqt/

    It's a shame though because pygtk and wxpython are probably better gui
    apis for python, but their gui builders are no where near as nice.
    QT Designer lets you drop in controls as you are designing, and THEN
    apply layout constraints, instead of the reverse like in other gui
    builders.
     
    DH, Dec 13, 2005
    #13
  14. Kamilche

    Mike Meyer Guest

    Peter Maas <> writes:
    > Mike Meyer schrieb:
    >> I agree. I've tried a number of different gui builders. I find it much
    >> faster to type something like:
    >> ui.add_button("New", self.new)
    >> ui.add_button("Open", self.open)
    >> ui.add_button("Save", self.save)
    >> ui.add_button("Save As", self.save_as)
    >> Than have to drag four menu buttons from a pallette, then open the
    >> properties of each one to edit the text of the button and the callback
    >> entry (or whatever dance they need so you can enter the required
    >> text).

    > If you design a moderately complex UI a designer will be faster. It's
    > not the speed of typing vs. dragging that matters. You see the result
    > instantly and don't have to start your program, look, type code, start
    > again and so on.


    But you only need to do that if you're wanting near-absolute control
    over what's displayed. Once you provide reasonable accessability and
    configuration features - letting the user specifiy fonts, which
    buttons show up, which toolbars you're going to have, what's in the
    menus, etc. In this case, "look" is trivial, and it seldom requires a
    second pass.

    > A GUI builder is more pleasant to work with, at least
    > with a good one like Delphi or Qt designer.


    That is your opinion, and I'm sure it's true for you. It isn't true
    for me.

    > It's not a good idea to do everything in code. I find it tiresome to
    > create menus and toolbars by writing code.


    Maybe you're doing something wrong? Or maybe it is tiresome for you,
    and you should be using something else.

    > Creating visual resources visually is the direct way, creating them in
    > code is a detour. Code is too lengthy and too versatile for such a
    > job.


    Your application creates code in the end, so that's the direct
    route. A visual representation of a modern app is a relatively static
    version of the real interface, and thus at best an approximation.

    Worse yet, there's a good chance your visual tool stores the
    information needed to recreate either the visual version or the code
    in either a binary format, or a proprietary one, or both. In the
    former case, standard code analysis tools are nearly useless. In the
    latter case, they own your code. While that price might be worth it if
    you place enough value onj being able to manipulate images instead of
    code, either is enough to make me avoid a tool.

    <mike
    --
    Mike Meyer <> http://www.mired.org/home/mwm/
    Independent WWW/Perforce/FreeBSD/Unix consultant, email for more information.
     
    Mike Meyer, Dec 14, 2005
    #14
  15. Kamilche

    Ivan Voras Guest

    Mike Meyer wrote:

    >>A GUI builder is more pleasant to work with, at least
    >>with a good one like Delphi or Qt designer.

    >
    > That is your opinion, and I'm sure it's true for you. It isn't true
    > for me.


    Not trying to start a war here, but I consider this discussion something
    like using regular expressions vs coding string matchers by hand. Of
    course a "real language" is Turing-complete and thus without doubt more
    powerful than regular expressions, and certainly there are people who
    always code string parsers in their language of choice, but for those
    who know how to use it, regular expressions simplify the work a lot.
    It's more "natural" to see:

    if str.matches("\d\d\d\d"):...

    than to code

    if str[0] in digits && str[1] in digits && str[2] in digits && str[3] in
    digits: ...

    And in C, it's even more uglier. The point is: somebody had to code the
    RE parser and at the end, it will all fall back to the code written in
    C, for both RE and visual designer generated code.

    People are visual creatures and GUI designers are simply easier to work
    with. :)
     
    Ivan Voras, Dec 14, 2005
    #15
  16. Kamilche

    Peter Decker Guest

    On 12/13/05, Mike Meyer <> wrote:

    > > A GUI builder is more pleasant to work with, at least
    > > with a good one like Delphi or Qt designer.

    >
    > That is your opinion, and I'm sure it's true for you. It isn't true
    > for me.


    Why, then, do you disparage those who like to do things differently?
    Why label visual tools as "evil"? Why this need to have everyone do
    things the way you do?

    This sounds a lot like the tabs vs. spaces argument, or the emacs vs.
    every other editor argument, in that one side seems to feel that "to
    each his own", while the other side has a religious zealotry about
    them that compels them to want to enforce their preferences on
    everyone.

    You like to write code? Great! Someone else like to use a visual
    designer? Great! Just realize that UI created with visual tools can be
    crap, and so can UIs written with raw code. Making fun of people whose
    preferences are different than yours only makes you look insecure.

    --

    # p.d.
     
    Peter Decker, Dec 14, 2005
    #16
  17. Kamilche

    Mike Meyer Guest

    Peter Decker <> writes:
    >> > A GUI builder is more pleasant to work with, at least
    >> > with a good one like Delphi or Qt designer.

    >> That is your opinion, and I'm sure it's true for you. It isn't true
    >> for me.

    > Why, then, do you disparage those who like to do things differently?
    > Why label visual tools as "evil"?


    I didn't label them as "evil" - I agreed with someone who did that
    :).

    > Why this need to have everyone do things the way you do?


    Whatever makes you think I have this need? I said I hated them. I'm
    pretty sure I didn't say everyone should have to use them.

    <mike
    --
    Mike Meyer <> http://www.mired.org/home/mwm/
    Independent WWW/Perforce/FreeBSD/Unix consultant, email for more information.
     
    Mike Meyer, Dec 14, 2005
    #17
  18. Jérôme Laheurte <> wrote:
    ...
    > Sorry for the harsh tone, I just think GUI builders are *evil*. Except
    > maybe for QT Designer, which has a nice model where you implement
    > callbacks by subclassing the generated classes. At least you don't have to
    > look at the generated code.


    Try Interface Builder on a Mac: it builds interfaces as _data_ files,
    not "generated code". You can then use the same UI from Objective C,
    Java, Python (w/PyObjC), AppleScript... interface-painters which
    generate code are a really bad idea. (I'm sure Apple's IB is not the
    only interface-painter which encodes the UI as a datafile, easily
    interpreted at startup by a suitable library for whatever language
    you're using to flesh it out -- it's such an obviously RIGHT idea!).


    Alex
     
    Alex Martelli, Dec 14, 2005
    #18
  19. Kamilche

    Kamilche Guest

    Yeah, I have a system like that on my product. It's a data file loaded
    at code startup time, which results in a UI - no need to cut code to
    change the interface. It's saved me a lot of time.

    I also have a problem with 'designers'. If the GUI designer is as easy
    as making an interface was in VB6, I would like it and use it. If it's
    complicated morass of sticky goo that I have to wade through at the
    start of the program, like tKinter, I'd rather use pure code, or data
    files.
     
    Kamilche, Dec 14, 2005
    #19
  20. Kamilche

    Paul Rubin Guest

    (Alex Martelli) writes:
    > Try Interface Builder on a Mac: it builds interfaces as _data_ files,
    > not "generated code". You can then use the same UI from Objective C,
    > Java, Python (w/PyObjC), AppleScript... interface-painters which
    > generate code are a really bad idea.


    Glade also does something like that.

    We see the same thing in HTML. Lots of people including serious
    designers use wysiwyg HTML layout programs. For fancy layouts they're
    almost indispensible. I hand-code my HTML but I keep it simple.
     
    Paul Rubin, Dec 14, 2005
    #20
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