Strange behaviour

Discussion in 'HTML' started by =?ISO-8859-1?Q?=22Gabri=EBl=40Home=22?=, Dec 20, 2005.

  1. Hi Folks,

    I've been working on this for quite a long time now..

    http://www.amdemo.com/testsite consists of 2 frames (top & main). I
    center the Flash element in the top frame and the table in the bottom
    frame. As long as the browser (FireFox or IE, doesn't matter) is not
    maximized the menu and the table are directly under each other. But then
    you maximize the bottom frame is 1 pixel left of the top frame in alignment.

    Does anyone know what this behaviour can be? And how to solve it?

    Please check http://www.amdemo.com/testsite and let me know!

    Thanks a lot!

    Greets,
    Gab
    =?ISO-8859-1?Q?=22Gabri=EBl=40Home=22?=, Dec 20, 2005
    #1
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  2. =?ISO-8859-1?Q?=22Gabri=EBl=40Home=22?=

    David Graham Guest

    "Gabriël@Home" <> wrote in message
    news:...
    > Hi Folks,
    >
    > I've been working on this for quite a long time now..
    >
    > http://www.amdemo.com/testsite consists of 2 frames (top & main). I
    > center the Flash element in the top frame and the table in the bottom
    > frame. As long as the browser (FireFox or IE, doesn't matter) is not
    > maximized the menu and the table are directly under each other. But then
    > you maximize the bottom frame is 1 pixel left of the top frame in

    alignment.
    >
    > Does anyone know what this behaviour can be? And how to solve it?
    >
    > Please check http://www.amdemo.com/testsite and let me know!
    >
    > Thanks a lot!
    >
    > Greets,
    > Gab

    Hi
    I'm no expert but I think others in this group will point out why frames are
    bad (if tthey are not tired doing so already).
    Try
    body, table {margin: 0;}
    in the css for main.html
    and
    body {margin: 0;}
    for top.html

    Not sure how you play with the CSS for a frameset, perhaps you just do the
    individual pages in the frameset as I have done above. Others will know
    If no good above throw in padding: 0; as well for luck!
    HTH
    David
    David Graham, Dec 21, 2005
    #2
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  3. David Graham wrote:
    > "Gabriël@Home" <> wrote in message
    > news:...
    >
    >>Hi Folks,
    >>
    >>I've been working on this for quite a long time now..
    >>
    >>http://www.amdemo.com/testsite consists of 2 frames (top & main). I
    >>center the Flash element in the top frame and the table in the bottom
    >>frame. As long as the browser (FireFox or IE, doesn't matter) is not
    >>maximized the menu and the table are directly under each other. But then
    >>you maximize the bottom frame is 1 pixel left of the top frame in

    >
    > alignment.
    >
    >>Does anyone know what this behaviour can be? And how to solve it?
    >>
    >>Please check http://www.amdemo.com/testsite and let me know!
    >>
    >>Thanks a lot!
    >>
    >>Greets,
    >>Gab

    >
    > Hi
    > I'm no expert but I think others in this group will point out why frames are
    > bad (if tthey are not tired doing so already).
    > Try
    > body, table {margin: 0;}
    > in the css for main.html
    > and
    > body {margin: 0;}
    > for top.html
    >
    > Not sure how you play with the CSS for a frameset, perhaps you just do the
    > individual pages in the frameset as I have done above. Others will know
    > If no good above throw in padding: 0; as well for luck!
    > HTH
    > David
    >
    >
    >

    Please give me a link of why frames are bad...

    The problem is that my top is Flash and I don't want it to be reloaded
    on every page change
    =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Gabri=EBl?=, Dec 21, 2005
    #3
  4. =?ISO-8859-1?Q?=22Gabri=EBl=40Home=22?=

    David Graham Guest

    "Gabriël" <> wrote in message
    news:43a933d2$0$21691$...
    > David Graham wrote:
    > > "Gabriël@Home" <> wrote in message
    > > news:...
    > >
    > >>Hi Folks,
    > >>
    > >>I've been working on this for quite a long time now..
    > >>
    > >>http://www.amdemo.com/testsite consists of 2 frames (top & main). I
    > >>center the Flash element in the top frame and the table in the bottom
    > >>frame. As long as the browser (FireFox or IE, doesn't matter) is not
    > >>maximized the menu and the table are directly under each other. But then
    > >>you maximize the bottom frame is 1 pixel left of the top frame in

    > >
    > > alignment.
    > >
    > >>Does anyone know what this behaviour can be? And how to solve it?
    > >>
    > >>Please check http://www.amdemo.com/testsite and let me know!
    > >>
    > >>Thanks a lot!
    > >>
    > >>Greets,
    > >>Gab

    > >
    > > Hi
    > > I'm no expert but I think others in this group will point out why frames

    are
    > > bad (if tthey are not tired doing so already).
    > > Try
    > > body, table {margin: 0;}
    > > in the css for main.html
    > > and
    > > body {margin: 0;}
    > > for top.html
    > >
    > > Not sure how you play with the CSS for a frameset, perhaps you just do

    the
    > > individual pages in the frameset as I have done above. Others will know
    > > If no good above throw in padding: 0; as well for luck!
    > > HTH
    > > David
    > >
    > >
    > >

    > Please give me a link of why frames are bad...


    A search in google will bring back lots of pages on this. Did my suggestion
    help?
    Some of the bad effects of frames that I can remember are:
    1. Search engines find them difficult or impossible to index (not sure why)
    2. Bookmarking a page bookmarks the frameset not the page the user is on so
    they don't get back to what they expected when they use the bookmark.
    3. Users may follow a link to your site that takes them to one of your pages
    on it's own i.e. not contained within the Frameset so they could be missing
    vital stuff like the navigation page (frame)
    4. Accesibility issues - not possible for text only or screen readers to
    make sense of them (I think)

    The list is a lot longer than this though!

    > The problem is that my top is Flash and I don't want it to be reloaded
    > on every page change


    Not sure, but wouldn't the .swf be downloaded once to a local cache on the
    users disc (temporary internet files folder) so subsequent requests would be
    quicker.
    HTH
    David
    David Graham, Dec 21, 2005
    #4
  5. =?ISO-8859-1?Q?=22Gabri=EBl=40Home=22?=

    David Graham Guest

    "Gabriël" <> wrote in message
    news:43a933d2$0$21691$...
    > David Graham wrote:
    > > "Gabriël@Home" <> wrote in message
    > > news:...
    > >
    > >>Hi Folks,
    > >>
    > >>I've been working on this for quite a long time now..
    > >>
    > >>http://www.amdemo.com/testsite consists of 2 frames (top & main). I
    > >>center the Flash element in the top frame and the table in the bottom
    > >>frame. As long as the browser (FireFox or IE, doesn't matter) is not
    > >>maximized the menu and the table are directly under each other. But then
    > >>you maximize the bottom frame is 1 pixel left of the top frame in

    > >
    > > alignment.
    > >
    > >>Does anyone know what this behaviour can be? And how to solve it?
    > >>
    > >>Please check http://www.amdemo.com/testsite and let me know!
    > >>
    > >>Thanks a lot!
    > >>
    > >>Greets,
    > >>Gab

    > >
    > > Hi
    > > I'm no expert but I think others in this group will point out why frames

    are
    > > bad (if tthey are not tired doing so already).
    > > Try
    > > body, table {margin: 0;}
    > > in the css for main.html
    > > and
    > > body {margin: 0;}
    > > for top.html
    > >
    > > Not sure how you play with the CSS for a frameset, perhaps you just do

    the
    > > individual pages in the frameset as I have done above. Others will know
    > > If no good above throw in padding: 0; as well for luck!
    > > HTH
    > > David
    > >
    > >
    > >

    > Please give me a link of why frames are bad...
    >
    > The problem is that my top is Flash and I don't want it to be reloaded
    > on every page change


    I made a site which uses a cookie so that the Flash plays only once in a
    popup (people in here hate popups as well) - subsequent visits to the site
    see no Flash because of the cookie.
    http://www.catalysys.co.uk

    Only just taken up the web design thing after not doing it for ages so I
    can't remember how I did most things - need to relearn it all. Thank
    goodness I have made extensive notes.
    David
    David Graham, Dec 21, 2005
    #5
  6. =?ISO-8859-1?Q?=22Gabri=EBl=40Home=22?=

    David Graham Guest

    > > The problem is that my top is Flash and I don't want it to be reloaded
    > > on every page change

    >

    Also, couldn't you put a play once only on the flash movie - not an
    actionscript expert either but I'm sure others will know.
    HTH
    David
    David Graham, Dec 21, 2005
    #6
  7. =?ISO-8859-1?Q?=22Gabri=EBl=40Home=22?=

    Chaddy2222 Guest

    Gabriël wrote:

    > David Graham wrote:
    > > "Gabriël@Home" <> wrote in message
    > > news:...
    > >
    > >>Hi Folks,
    > >>
    > >>I've been working on this for quite a long time now..
    > >>
    > >>http://www.amdemo.com/testsite consists of 2 frames (top & main). I
    > >>center the Flash element in the top frame and the table in the bottom
    > >>frame. As long as the browser (FireFox or IE, doesn't matter) is not
    > >>maximized the menu and the table are directly under each other. But then
    > >>you maximize the bottom frame is 1 pixel left of the top frame in

    > >
    > > alignment.
    > >
    > >>Does anyone know what this behaviour can be? And how to solve it?
    > >>
    > >>Please check http://www.amdemo.com/testsite and let me know!
    > >>
    > >>Thanks a lot!
    > >>
    > >>Greets,
    > >>Gab

    > >
    > > Hi
    > > I'm no expert but I think others in this group will point out why frames are
    > > bad (if tthey are not tired doing so already).
    > > Try
    > > body, table {margin: 0;}
    > > in the css for main.html
    > > and
    > > body {margin: 0;}
    > > for top.html
    > >
    > > Not sure how you play with the CSS for a frameset, perhaps you just do the
    > > individual pages in the frameset as I have done above. Others will know
    > > If no good above throw in padding: 0; as well for luck!
    > > HTH
    > > David
    > >
    > >
    > >

    > Please give me a link of why frames are bad...

    Well. You did ask for it!. So here is but a few of the reasons why
    frames are very bad.
    http://freewebdesign.cjb.cc/design-tips1.html
    I also list two alternitives with what you could do / use instead of
    frames.

    >
    > The problem is that my top is Flash and I don't want it to be reloaded
    > on every page change

    Ahh. If your Flash area contains the navigation. Get rid of that as
    well. It's useless!.
    http://freewebdesign.cjb.cc/design-tips4.html That article I wrote
    will give you an example or two on why that is the case.
    --
    Regards Chad. http://freewebdesign.cjb.cc
    Chaddy2222, Dec 21, 2005
    #7
  8. =?ISO-8859-1?Q?=22Gabri=EBl=40Home=22?=

    Neredbojias Guest

    With neither quill nor qualm, =?ISO-8859-1?Q?=22Gabri=EBl=40Home=22?=
    quothed:

    > Hi Folks,
    >
    > I've been working on this for quite a long time now..
    >
    > http://www.amdemo.com/testsite consists of 2 frames (top & main). I
    > center the Flash element in the top frame and the table in the bottom
    > frame. As long as the browser (FireFox or IE, doesn't matter) is not
    > maximized the menu and the table are directly under each other. But then
    > you maximize the bottom frame is 1 pixel left of the top frame in alignment.
    >
    > Does anyone know what this behaviour can be? And how to solve it?
    >
    > Please check http://www.amdemo.com/testsite and let me know!


    In IE (XP) I get the offset whether the browser is maximized or not. In
    Mozilla I don't get it at all.

    Take the align="center" out of <table> and center it with css (or
    <center> if you must.) Don't ever use align="center" in a table or div.

    --
    Neredbojias
    Contrary to popular belief, it is believable.
    Neredbojias, Dec 21, 2005
    #8
  9. Chaddy2222 wrote:
    > Gabriël wrote:
    >
    >
    >>David Graham wrote:
    >>
    >>>"Gabriël@Home" <> wrote in message
    >>>news:...
    >>>
    >>>
    >>>>Hi Folks,
    >>>>
    >>>>I've been working on this for quite a long time now..
    >>>>
    >>>>http://www.amdemo.com/testsite consists of 2 frames (top & main). I
    >>>>center the Flash element in the top frame and the table in the bottom
    >>>>frame. As long as the browser (FireFox or IE, doesn't matter) is not
    >>>>maximized the menu and the table are directly under each other. But then
    >>>>you maximize the bottom frame is 1 pixel left of the top frame in
    >>>
    >>>alignment.
    >>>
    >>>
    >>>>Does anyone know what this behaviour can be? And how to solve it?
    >>>>
    >>>>Please check http://www.amdemo.com/testsite and let me know!
    >>>>
    >>>>Thanks a lot!
    >>>>
    >>>>Greets,
    >>>>Gab
    >>>
    >>>Hi
    >>>I'm no expert but I think others in this group will point out why frames are
    >>>bad (if tthey are not tired doing so already).
    >>>Try
    >>> body, table {margin: 0;}
    >>> in the css for main.html
    >>>and
    >>>body {margin: 0;}
    >>>for top.html
    >>>
    >>>Not sure how you play with the CSS for a frameset, perhaps you just do the
    >>>individual pages in the frameset as I have done above. Others will know
    >>>If no good above throw in padding: 0; as well for luck!
    >>>HTH
    >>>David
    >>>
    >>>
    >>>

    >>
    >>Please give me a link of why frames are bad...

    >
    > Well. You did ask for it!. So here is but a few of the reasons why
    > frames are very bad.
    > http://freewebdesign.cjb.cc/design-tips1.html
    > I also list two alternitives with what you could do / use instead of
    > frames.
    >
    >
    >>The problem is that my top is Flash and I don't want it to be reloaded
    >>on every page change

    >
    > Ahh. If your Flash area contains the navigation. Get rid of that as
    > well. It's useless!.
    > http://freewebdesign.cjb.cc/design-tips4.html That article I wrote
    > will give you an example or two on why that is the case.


    I think it's bit on the priority you're after. It's the design & look
    and feel my clients and their visitors care about, not how they index in
    google (or for a bit, but I make sure everything is reachable via text
    links), so that's no option to remove..

    Technicly I agree, but from a commercial point of view I don't.
    =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Gabri=EBl?=, Dec 21, 2005
    #9
  10. Neredbojias wrote:
    > With neither quill nor qualm, =?ISO-8859-1?Q?=22Gabri=EBl=40Home=22?=
    > quothed:
    >
    >
    >>Hi Folks,
    >>
    >>I've been working on this for quite a long time now..
    >>
    >>http://www.amdemo.com/testsite consists of 2 frames (top & main). I
    >>center the Flash element in the top frame and the table in the bottom
    >>frame. As long as the browser (FireFox or IE, doesn't matter) is not
    >>maximized the menu and the table are directly under each other. But then
    >>you maximize the bottom frame is 1 pixel left of the top frame in alignment.
    >>
    >>Does anyone know what this behaviour can be? And how to solve it?
    >>
    >>Please check http://www.amdemo.com/testsite and let me know!

    >
    >
    > In IE (XP) I get the offset whether the browser is maximized or not. In
    > Mozilla I don't get it at all.
    >
    > Take the align="center" out of <table> and center it with css (or
    > <center> if you must.) Don't ever use align="center" in a table or div.
    >

    It seems I've really been up to date for a long time...

    I hear never use tables, but use div's and now I can't use
    align="center" anymore... please, why? :)
    =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Gabri=EBl?=, Dec 21, 2005
    #10
  11. Gabriël wrote:
    <snip>
    > I hear never use tables, but use div's and now I can't use
    > align="center" anymore... please, why? :)


    presentation, that is what your style sheet is for

    ELEMENT || CLASS || ID { text-align: center; }

    --
    Take care,

    Jonathan
    -------------------
    LITTLE WORKS STUDIO
    http://www.LittleWorksStudio.com
    Jonathan N. Little, Dec 21, 2005
    #11
  12. =?ISO-8859-1?Q?=22Gabri=EBl=40Home=22?=

    Mark Parnell Guest

    Deciding to do something for the good of humanity, Gabriël
    <> spouted in alt.html:

    > Please give me a link of why frames are bad...


    Problems with frames:
    http://www.htmlhelp.com/design/frames/whatswrong.html
    http://html-faq.com/htmlframes/?framesareevil
    http://dorward.me.uk/www/frames/
    http://allmyfaqs.net/faq.pl?Problems_with_using_frames

    Search Engines and Frames:
    http://www.google.com/webmasters/2.html (see under "Your pages use
    frames")
    http://searchenginewatch.com/webmasters/article.php/2167901

    Using Frames Properly:
    http://www.markparnell.com.au/articles/frames.php

    > The problem is that my top is Flash


    That's easily fixed. :)

    --
    Mark Parnell
    =====================================================
    Att. Google Groups users - this is your last warning:
    http://www.safalra.com/special/googlegroupsreply/
    Mark Parnell, Dec 21, 2005
    #12
  13. =?ISO-8859-1?Q?=22Gabri=EBl=40Home=22?=

    Mark Parnell Guest

    Deciding to do something for the good of humanity, Gabriël
    <> spouted in alt.html:

    > It's the design & look
    > and feel my clients and their visitors care about,


    You've spoken to every one of their visitors/potential visitors?
    Personally, I'd much rather a site that works than one that looks nice.
    One that does both is even better, of course. :)

    > not how they index in
    > google


    IIRC Google can index (some) Flash these days, but I'm not sure, and
    *can* doesn't mean *will*. The issue here is more one of visitors
    actually being able to use the site.

    > Technicly I agree, but from a commercial point of view I don't.


    So your clients think it makes commercial sense to lose potential
    clients? It's their decision I guess.

    --
    Mark Parnell
    =====================================================
    Att. Google Groups users - this is your last warning:
    http://www.safalra.com/special/googlegroupsreply/
    Mark Parnell, Dec 21, 2005
    #13
  14. =?ISO-8859-1?Q?=22Gabri=EBl=40Home=22?=

    Chaddy2222 Guest

    Mark Parnell wrote:

    > Deciding to do something for the good of humanity, Gabriël
    > <> spouted in alt.html:
    >
    > > It's the design & look
    > > and feel my clients and their visitors care about,

    >
    > You've spoken to every one of their visitors/potential visitors?
    > Personally, I'd much rather a site that works than one that looks nice.

    Yep. I could not agree more. http://www.bca.org.au is a prime example.
    > One that does both is even better, of course. :-Yep.


    >
    > > not how they index in
    > > google

    >
    > IIRC Google can index (some) Flash these days, but I'm not sure, and
    > *can* doesn't mean *will*. The issue here is more one of visitors
    > actually being able to use the site.

    Yes. certonly.
    >
    > > Technicly I agree, but from a commercial point of view I don't.

    >
    > So your clients think it makes commercial sense to lose potential
    > clients?

    ha hahaha. My thaughts exactly.
    It's their decision I guess.
    Yes. I suppose it is.

    >

    --
    Regards Chad. http://freewebdesign.cjb.cc
    > =====================================================
    > Att. Google Groups users - this is your last warning:
    > http://www.safalra.com/special/googlegroupsreply/
    Chaddy2222, Dec 22, 2005
    #14
  15. =?ISO-8859-1?Q?=22Gabri=EBl=40Home=22?=

    Chaddy2222 Guest

    Gabriël wrote:

    > Chaddy2222 wrote:
    > > Gabriël wrote:
    > >
    > >
    > >>David Graham wrote:
    > >>
    > >>>"Gabriël@Home" <> wrote in message
    > >>>news:...
    > >>>
    > >>>
    > >>>>Hi Folks,
    > >>>>
    > >>>>I've been working on this for quite a long time now..
    > >>>>
    > >>>>http://www.amdemo.com/testsite consists of 2 frames (top & main). I
    > >>>>center the Flash element in the top frame and the table in the bottom
    > >>>>frame. As long as the browser (FireFox or IE, doesn't matter) is not
    > >>>>maximized the menu and the table are directly under each other. But then
    > >>>>you maximize the bottom frame is 1 pixel left of the top frame in
    > >>>
    > >>>alignment.
    > >>>
    > >>>
    > >>>>Does anyone know what this behaviour can be? And how to solve it?
    > >>>>
    > >>>>Please check http://www.amdemo.com/testsite and let me know!
    > >>>>
    > >>>>Thanks a lot!
    > >>>>
    > >>>>Greets,
    > >>>>Gab
    > >>>
    > >>>Hi
    > >>>I'm no expert but I think others in this group will point out why frames are
    > >>>bad (if tthey are not tired doing so already).
    > >>>Try
    > >>> body, table {margin: 0;}
    > >>> in the css for main.html
    > >>>and
    > >>>body {margin: 0;}
    > >>>for top.html
    > >>>
    > >>>Not sure how you play with the CSS for a frameset, perhaps you just dothe
    > >>>individual pages in the frameset as I have done above. Others will know
    > >>>If no good above throw in padding: 0; as well for luck!
    > >>>HTH
    > >>>David
    > >>>
    > >>>
    > >>>
    > >>
    > >>Please give me a link of why frames are bad...

    > >
    > > Well. You did ask for it!. So here is but a few of the reasons why
    > > frames are very bad.
    > > http://freewebdesign.cjb.cc/design-tips1.html
    > > I also list two alternitives with what you could do / use instead of
    > > frames.
    > >
    > >
    > >>The problem is that my top is Flash and I don't want it to be reloaded
    > >>on every page change

    > >
    > > Ahh. If your Flash area contains the navigation. Get rid of that as
    > > well. It's useless!.
    > > http://freewebdesign.cjb.cc/design-tips4.html That article I wrote
    > > will give you an example or two on why that is the case.

    >
    > I think it's bit on the priority you're after. It's the design & look
    > and feel my clients and their visitors care about,

    If that's the case. Then it's in your best interest to get rid of the
    frames.
    not how they index in
    > google

    Then how the hell do you expect people to find your site. Considering
    the Mighty Google is one of the most (if not the most used SE's in the
    world) I would be doing everything poesable to try and get indexed. Not
    the other way around.
    (or for a bit, but I make sure everything is reachable via text
    > links)

    Pointless really. If you are going to use frames you might as well put
    a bit more effort in and make your whole bloody site inaccessible!.
    The point is. it's still harder for the SE's to find your content if
    it's hidden in a frame.
    so that's no option to remove..
    What. The frameset or the Flash, which I might point out that 10% of
    your visitors won't even see.
    --
    Regards Chad. http://freewebdesign.cjb.cc
    >
    > Technicly I agree, but from a commercial point of view I don't.
    Chaddy2222, Dec 22, 2005
    #15
  16. =?ISO-8859-1?Q?=22Gabri=EBl=40Home=22?=

    Neredbojias Guest

    With neither quill nor qualm, =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Gabri=EBl?= quothed:

    > It seems I've really been up to date for a long time...
    >
    > I hear never use tables, but use div's and now I can't use
    > align="center" anymore... please, why? :)


    It doesn't work right, at least anymore (-if it ever did.)

    --
    Neredbojias
    Contrary to popular belief, it is believable.
    Neredbojias, Dec 22, 2005
    #16
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