Struggle with The Move to .NET

[Guest]

I have been building web apps for about 7 years with (mostly) script and some
COM. I am comfortable with OOP and have taken several Microsoft-designed
ASP.NET courses including their ASP to ASP.NET course (which in my opinion is
a waste of time for anyone with more that a passing familiarity with ASP) and
the ASP.NET Bootcamp (more useful but still didn't solve my problem).

Most of my development is Intranet (IE 5.5+) based and, admittedly, I
frequently build functionality with ASP that is more appropriate in COM or
ASP.NET but my issue is that I now have a great deal of reusable code
(infrastructure, if you will) and complex techniques that allow me to be VERY
productive with ASP. ASP.NET promises great reduction in development time
but, for me, it may mean months of significantly longer development cycles
because I hardly know how to begin to create in .NET the pages and modules
that are second nature to me in classic.

Transitioning content and code from ASP to ASP.NET is one thing but does
anyone have suggestions for speeding the transition of skill and productivity?

Michael Geist
MCSD (6)

 

[Scott M.]

I think, for someone like you who has good exposure to programming skills
(particularly VB 6.0), that if you focus on learning/understanding the .NET
Framework and OOP concepts, you will make the transition easier. You say
you have OO experience, but is it in something other than VB? As you know,
VB 6.0 wasn't truly OO and now VB.NET is.

 

[Jeff Dillon]

Practice?

Can you ask a specific question?

Jeff

 

[Ken Dopierala Jr.]

Hi Michael,

You have come to the right place. This newsgroup is your biggest advantage
second only to your determination to make the move. I would suggest just
jumping in and start writing code. As you come across issues and questions,
post them here. As you can see, rarely does a question go unanswered.
Also, if you want to save time, search for an answer before posting. Many
of the things you will ask about have been answered. Until you learn all
the terminology though it may be difficult to search for your answer. So go
ahead and post away! We'll help you! Ken.

 

[Shaun Wilde]

Personally if your ASP code is well structured you should find it easy to
port over

However what I think will happen is that you will use that existing codebase
to act as the basis for a new codebase you will quickly build up.

Enjoy the adventure - for .NET 2 cometh

 

[Ken Cox [Microsoft MVP]]

Like you, I was an ASP Classic person. I was a bit hesitant to get into
ASP.NET when the beta came out because it seemed so foreign and "advanced".

The way to get a handle on it is to take a small project that you've already
coded in ASP and work through it in ASP.NET. Before long, things will start
to fall into place.

When I read about programming or watch someone explain it, I rarely get it
on the spot. Things seem to "click" when I sit down to work it out for
myself.

Of course there are lots of people in this newsgroup who will gladly help
you over the humps. Knowing ASP, you already have a good headstart on your
own.

Ken
MVP [ASP.NET]

 

[Scott M.]

Practice?

Another great piece of advice Jeff. You really have a strong grasp of what
the OP is struggling with.

Can you ask a specific question?

There mere fact that you are saying this indicates that you don't understand
the specific question that is being asked. Jeff, if you don't have anything
constructive to contribute, why do you bother to respond? Why must you
continue to degrade and insult people here with your off the cuff remarks?

 

[Guest]

Hi Scott,

I agree that I don't think Jeff understood my question and answering it with
a question isn't exactly helpful but here are some specific senarios. This
issue isn't so much that that I have any major roadblocks but that I have so
many small pieces that I have to replace. For instance, I have a server side
function that builds sequel statements based on my convention for the name
property of form elements and I have client side script that validates based
on my convention for the ID property of form elements. As you know ASP.NET
form controls don't expose a name property. I have heard something about
user-defined properties but haven't seen examples yet.

Another example: on some of my web apps I apply what I refer to as 'dynamic
style sheets'. The user has the option of different color shemes for the
app. In classic I achieve this with a (folder) variable in the embedded file
path for the css and the images. In .NET maybe all I need is a single line
in the code behind but I find that the way to go about separating mixed
ASP/HTML like this isn't always obvious for me.

Some others: server side includes for headers, footers, and user
identification. A lot of client script, some generated with server side
script. Tables (grids) and forms dynamically created using ADOX table props.

I am not a regular newsgroup user (if you can't tell) but I have got to say
that I don't understand newsgroupees that don't seem to have anything better
to do than look for opportunities to jump on someone's mistake or
misstatement. If Jeff is one of those types, its a little sad but it didn't
bother me.

Thanks

 

[Guest]

Thanks Ken.

It sounds like I just need to jump in the pool and start swimming.

If you have any specific suggestions or concepts for some of the examples in
my reply to Scott above, I'd be grateful.

Like you, I was an ASP Classic person. I was a bit hesitant to get into
ASP.NET when the beta came out because it seemed so foreign and "advanced".

The way to get a handle on it is to take a small project that you've already
coded in ASP and work through it in ASP.NET. Before long, things will start
to fall into place.

When I read about programming or watch someone explain it, I rarely get it
on the spot. Things seem to "click" when I sit down to work it out for
myself.

Of course there are lots of people in this newsgroup who will gladly help
you over the humps. Knowing ASP, you already have a good headstart on your
own.

Ken
MVP [ASP.NET]

I have been building web apps for about 7 years with (mostly) script and
some
COM. I am comfortable with OOP and have taken several Microsoft-designed
ASP.NET courses including their ASP to ASP.NET course (which in my opinion
is
a waste of time for anyone with more that a passing familiarity with ASP)
and
the ASP.NET Bootcamp (more useful but still didn't solve my problem).

Most of my development is Intranet (IE 5.5+) based and, admittedly, I
frequently build functionality with ASP that is more appropriate in COM or
ASP.NET but my issue is that I now have a great deal of reusable code
(infrastructure, if you will) and complex techniques that allow me to be
VERY
productive with ASP. ASP.NET promises great reduction in development time
but, for me, it may mean months of significantly longer development cycles
because I hardly know how to begin to create in .NET the pages and modules
that are second nature to me in classic.

Transitioning content and code from ASP to ASP.NET is one thing but does
anyone have suggestions for speeding the transition of skill and
productivity?

Michael Geist
MCSD (6)

 

[Jeff Dillon]

Lighten up, and welcome to the newsgroups

Jeff

Another great piece of advice Jeff. You really have a strong grasp of what
the OP is struggling with.


There mere fact that you are saying this indicates that you don't understand
the specific question that is being asked. Jeff, if you don't have anything
constructive to contribute, why do you bother to respond? Why must you
continue to degrade and insult people here with your off the cuff remarks?

 

[Scott M.]

As you know ASP.NET

form controls don't expose a name property. I have heard something about
user-defined properties but haven't seen examples yet.

But they do support the more widely used "ID" property (which is also
supported in classic ASP). To quickly convert your classic ASP form
elements to ASP.NET form elements (elements that can be programmed with
VB.NET on the server and respond to server-side events) simply add
"runat=server" and "id=elementName" to the HTML element. So, if you had an
old textbox:

<INPUT TYPE="Text" NAME="txtSomething">

you could turn it into an ASP.NET HTML Server Control by writing:

<INPUT TYPE="Text" NAME="txtSomething" ID="txtSomething" RUNAT="Server">

(note that you can have both the Name and the ID property without issue -
they can even have the same values)

ASP.NET also has validation controls, so you may find that validating form
fields is now a no brainer.

Another example: on some of my web apps I apply what I refer to as
'dynamic
style sheets'. The user has the option of different color shemes for the
app. In classic I achieve this with a (folder) variable in the embedded
file
path for the css and the images. In .NET maybe all I need is a single
line
in the code behind but I find that the way to go about separating mixed
ASP/HTML like this isn't always obvious for me.

The ASP.NET "Page" object is programmable at the server level. Although I
haven't done what you describe, I believe it would simply be a matter of
adding a line in the Page_Load event handler of the code-behind that
associates the correct css file with the page instance (me). You may be
able to do this by sending the HTML <LINK> tag back to the client or by
using a Literal server control. The key point here is that you gain access
to what will eventually be client-side elements if they are declared as
server-side elements first.

Some others: server side includes for headers, footers, and user
identification. A lot of client script, some generated with server side
script. Tables (grids) and forms dynamically created using ADOX table
props.

In ASP.NET, we replace SSI's with "User Controls", which serve the same
purpose as SSI's but use a .NET language to create them.

I am not a regular newsgroup user (if you can't tell) but I have got to
say
that I don't understand newsgroupees that don't seem to have anything
better
to do than look for opportunities to jump on someone's mistake or
misstatement. If Jeff is one of those types, its a little sad but it
didn't
bother me.

Thanks

Your welcome. Good luck and come on back and post your other questions as
they come up. Don't be afraid to post source code as well so we can really
understand what it is you are doing.

-Scott

 

[Scott M.]

Lighten up, and welcome to the newsgroups

I really don't understand what this is supposed to mean. Don't bother
explaining it.

 

[Ken Cox [Microsoft MVP]]

As you know ASP.NET

form controls don't expose a name property. I have heard something about
user-defined properties but haven't seen examples yet.

If you post some code, I'm sure someone will show you the ASP.NET technique.
(Best to start a new thread for each issue.)

Another example: on some of my web apps I apply what I refer to as
'dynamic
style sheets'. The user has the option of different color shemes for the
app. In classic I achieve this with a (folder) variable in the embedded
file
path for the css and the images. In .NET maybe all I need is a single
line
in the code behind but I find that the way to go about separating mixed
ASP/HTML like this isn't always obvious for me.

You can still do it very much inline the ASP way. Codebehind is considered
by some to be more ".NET" but certainly isn't mandatory.

Some others: server side includes for headers, footers, and user
identification. A lot of client script, some generated with server side
script. Tables (grids) and forms dynamically created using ADOX table
props.

Headers, footers are good candidates for user controls where you used
includes in ASP.
Generating client-script is really easy. There are a bunch of methods like
Page.RegisterClientScriptBlock that help you emit code.
ADOX still exists and you get tools that regenerate grids.

As I said, as you run into an issue that you can't easily resolve, post it
here with some of the working ASP code. Someone will give you a nudge in the
right direction.

Ken
MVP [ASP.NET]

 

[Jeff Dillon]

Exactly

I really don't understand what this is supposed to mean. Don't bother
explaining it.

 

[Kevin Spencer]

It means that flaming is non-productive, not useful, and in fact,
contributes to an atmosphere of confrontation and hostility, which is not
conductive of helping people solve problems, the purpose of these
newsgroups. It means that people who flame without posting help are not only
not helpful, but harmful to the purpose of these newsgroups. It means that
people who flame lack moral character and self-discipline. If a person who
answers a question provides erroneous information, it is certainly helpful
to correct the record, for the sake of those who don't know what is true. It
is not necessary or helpful to attack any poster with personal attacks and
insults. It is not useful to assume the worst about something somebody
posts, and attack that person based upon a possibly false assumption.
Flaming is arrogant, as it is motivated by a false sense of superiority. To
have knowledge is not a virtue. It is what one decides to do with one's
knowledge that is virtuous or non-virtuous. And it is helpful, when looking
down the ladder at all the people who are below you, to take a look up at
all of the people that are above you, in order to get a realistic
perspective.

In short, it means "Lighten up." It means "Play nice."

--
HTH,
Kevin Spencer
..Net Developer
Microsoft MVP
Neither a follower
nor a lender be.

 

[Scott M.]

Kevin, I agree completely. And what I didn't understand is why the comment
was directed at me, who is not doing the flaming.

Jeff has established himself as someone who just wants to post meaningless
garble and then get nasty when someone doesn't understand it or indicates
that it isn't helpful.

My post to Jeff in this thread is not based on his comment(s) here in just
this thread. He continuously has posted useless replies that don't help
anyone and make the OP feel stupid for asking.

That is most certainly not how the NG's should work.

 

[Kevin Spencer]

Well, we certainly don't need to be policing each other here, do we? Just
block his messages, if they are unpleasant to you. Outlook Express's
newsreader can block messages by any number of parameters. I have personally
blocked several obnoxious posters in the past. I don't even know if they
still post these days. But on the other hand, I don't care! ;-)

--
HTH,
Kevin Spencer
..Net Developer
Microsoft MVP
Neither a follower
nor a lender be.

 

[Scott M.]

I do believe that when someone is flagrantly being nasty or intentionally
aloof and generally unhelpful, that it is worth pointing it out. I don't
like filtering anyone out because when I reply to a thread, I want to know
everything that has been said up to that point so I don't repeat something
that has been said or so that I might learn something from what has been
said (even monkeys, if left to their own devices and a typewriter, might
'bang' out Shakespeare!).

 

[Kevin Spencer]

I do believe that when someone is flagrantly being nasty or intentionally

aloof and generally unhelpful, that it is worth pointing it out.

Why? That is not the purpose of these newsgroups. Who made you the judge (or
anyone else here, for that matter)? A good test of whether something is a
good idea is to imagine what would happen if everyone practiced it. If
everyone here judged each other's responses and posted their personal
opinions of them, how useful would this newsgroup be? It would shortly
become microsoft.public.dotnet.framework.aspnet.flamewars.

Flaming simply inhibits people from speaking freely. It is
counter-productive.

I see stuff here every day that makes me wonder how some people have managed
to get so far in the programming business. Stuff that is so ignorant it
makes my stomach turn. Know what I do? Share it with a friend here at work,
privately.

--
HTH,
Kevin Spencer
..Net Developer
Microsoft MVP
Neither a follower
nor a lender be.

 

[Scott M.]

Well that's your opinion and you are entitled to it as I am I mine.

In just the same way that you wrote your first message to me, I wrote mine
to Jeff. So who's judging who?