Style vs. substance.

Discussion in 'HTML' started by Jane Jesi, Apr 27, 2007.

  1. Jane Jesi

    Jane Jesi Guest

    Hello gentlemen. I am new to web design and I have a question concerning a
    client. He has given me freedom to redesign his website. Is it better for a
    website to have a "corporate" feel such as http://www.ea.com/language.jsp
    or a more clean feel such as this small site at
    http://globalwarmingawareness2007.org.uk which I think is a clean and very
    simple design. While EA is definitely tough for a beginner, I feel that
    writing a website like this (minus the JSP/flash part) would look better in
    my portfolio. But on the other hand, I have deadlines for customers so I
    don't know. Any advice please?
     
    Jane Jesi, Apr 27, 2007
    #1
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  2. Jane Jesi

    John Hosking Guest

    Jane Jesi wrote:
    > Hello gentlemen.


    Poor Heidi, Els, Adrienne and Louise :-(

    > I am new to web design and I have a question concerning a
    > client. He has given me freedom to redesign his website.


    He *says*... Wait unitl you show him something. ;-)

    > Is it better for a
    > website to have a "corporate" feel such as http://www.ea.com/language.jsp


    Doesn't look particularly "corporate" to me; _this_ looks corporate:
    http://www.ubs.com/ (and BTW, it seems clean and simple to me, too).

    > or a more clean feel such as this small site at
    > http://globalwarmingawareness2007.org.uk which I think is a clean and very
    > simple design.


    Google ads and bold-on-black design, all in a 1200px table. Rather ick,
    IMHO.

    > While EA is definitely tough for a beginner, I feel that writing a
    > website like this (minus the JSP/flash part) would look better in
    > my portfolio.


    If you take out the JS/Flash part, there's nothing left! The entire
    content of the page (that which search engines will see and maybe try to
    index) is:
    "You don't have the latest version of Flash, download _here_."

    You could add the *graphics work* to your portfolio, but as a *site* it
    stinks, and its designer shouldn't mention it to anyone important.

    I wouldn't pay money for either of these sites, so I wouldn't care to
    recommend the look of either one.

    The real answer to the question "Is it better for a website to have a
    "corporate" feel or a more clean feel" is: Ask your client. Or at least,
    it depends on the client. You didn't say whether the client is an
    investment bank or governmental agency (rather corporate, usually), or a
    music distributor targeting young people (friendly, casual, maybe
    busier), or maybe an information resource for elderly folks (very clean,
    clear, simple, large type, whitespace).

    So: whatcha want? Or what does the client want? (Your freedom to
    redesign his website includes freedom to ask what he's generally looking
    for, how he wants to be seen, what results he hopes for from the site, etc.)

    --
    John
     
    John Hosking, Apr 27, 2007
    #2
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  3. In article <>,
    Jane Jesi <> wrote:

    > Hello gentlemen. I am new to web design and I have a question concerning a
    > client. He has given me freedom to redesign his website. Is it better for a
    > website to have a "corporate" feel such as http://www.ea.com/language.jsp
    > or a more clean feel such as this small site at
    > http://globalwarmingawareness2007.org.uk which I think is a clean and very
    > simple design.


    Which is better? Well it depends...is your client a punk rock band, a
    bank or tea shop? All of these have different needs.

    > While EA is definitely tough for a beginner, I feel that
    > writing a website like this (minus the JSP/flash part) would look better in
    > my portfolio. But on the other hand, I have deadlines for customers so I
    > don't know. Any advice please?


    Whether or not the site will look good in your portfolio seems besides
    the point. The work is about satisfying the client, no? I imagine a
    portfolio of satisfied clients would be the best possible one.

    Good luck

    --
    Philip
    http://NikitaTheSpider.com/
    Whole-site HTML validation, link checking and more
     
    Nikita the Spider, Apr 27, 2007
    #3
  4. On Apr 26, 7:19 pm, Jane Jesi <> wrote:
    > Hello gentlemen. I am new to web design and I have a question concerning a
    > client....


    I think you just wanted us to see the silly blame the humans for
    natural global warming site.
     
    Travis Newbury, Apr 27, 2007
    #4
  5. Jane Jesi

    Andy Dingley Guest

    On 27 Apr, 00:19, Jane Jesi <> wrote:
    > He has given me freedom to redesign his website.


    That's 'freedom' as in 'freedom to vote for Robert Mugabe' ?

    Just wait until you show him mockups!

    >Is it better for a website to have a "corporate" feel or a more clean feel ?


    Both of the examples you posted are appalingly bad, but for different
    reasons. They're technically diabolical and neither of them even has
    the occasional saving grace of at least looking good.
     
    Andy Dingley, Apr 27, 2007
    #5
  6. Jane Jesi

    Neredbojias Guest

    On Thu, 26 Apr 2007 23:19:25 GMT Jane Jesi scribed:

    > Hello gentlemen. I am new to web design and I have a question
    > concerning a client. He has given me freedom to redesign his website.
    > Is it better for a website to have a "corporate" feel such as
    > http://www.ea.com/language.jsp or a more clean feel such as this small
    > site at http://globalwarmingawareness2007.org.uk which I think is a
    > clean and very simple design. While EA is definitely tough for a
    > beginner, I feel that writing a website like this (minus the JSP/flash
    > part) would look better in my portfolio. But on the other hand, I have
    > deadlines for customers so I don't know. Any advice please?


    Let me ask you this: do you actually know what you're doing? If you are
    new to web design, you shouldn't have a client until you've learned
    something about the craft you are trying to execute.

    In any event, the best website is one which most closely sticks to
    acceptable standards, -"feel" aside. Naturally, it should be aesthetically
    pleasing, but how it works is more important than any visual rush that
    probably wouldn't occur in most visitors, anyway. A facile, easy-to-digest
    and -navigate site is highly preferable to multitudes of bells and whistles
    which quickly become boring upon repeated encounters. Constructing such a
    site does, of course, take some expertise.

    --
    Neredbojias
    He who laughs last sounds like an idiot.
     
    Neredbojias, Apr 28, 2007
    #6
  7. Jane Jesi

    Chaddy2222 Guest

    On Apr 27, 9:19 am, Jane Jesi <> wrote:
    > Hello gentlemen. I am new to web design and I have a question concerning a
    > client. He has given me freedom to redesign his website. Is it better for a
    > website to have a "corporate" feel such ashttp://www.ea.com/language.jsp
    > or a more clean feel such as this small site athttp://globalwarmingawareness2007.org.ukwhich I think is a clean and very
    > simple design. While EA is definitely tough for a beginner, I feel that
    > writing a website like this (minus the JSP/flash part) would look better in
    > my portfolio. But on the other hand, I have deadlines for customers so I
    > don't know. Any advice please?

    Web Design is about meeting your clients needs and from a users point
    of view, assisting them in solving a problem. If your sites can do
    that then your doing well.
    --
    Regards Chad. http://freewebdesign.cjb.cc
     
    Chaddy2222, Apr 28, 2007
    #7
  8. Jane Jesi

    dorayme Guest

    In article <Xns9920402FFFE42nanopandaneredbojias@208.49.80.251>,
    Neredbojias <> wrote:

    > If you are
    > new to web design, you shouldn't have a client until you've learned
    > something about the craft you are trying to execute.


    You old fuddy duddy! America was built on people taking wild
    risks, learning on the job and so on. Do you have some book on
    attitudes to take or do you actually think them up yourself?

    --
    dorayme
     
    dorayme, Apr 29, 2007
    #8
  9. Jane Jesi

    Andy Dingley Guest

    On 28 Apr, 14:38, Chaddy2222 <>
    wrote:

    > Web Design is about meeting your clients needs and from a users point
    > of view, assisting them in solving a problem.


    It's largely about recognising that these "clients" and "users" and
    separate groups, often with conflicting interests. Good web design
    (and I mean design, not just coding technicalities) is often about
    resolving this conflict without either group realising they're being
    manipulated.
     
    Andy Dingley, Apr 30, 2007
    #9
  10. Jane Jesi

    Neredbojias Guest

    On Sat, 28 Apr 2007 23:03:50 GMT dorayme scribed:

    > In article <Xns9920402FFFE42nanopandaneredbojias@208.49.80.251>,
    > Neredbojias <> wrote:
    >
    >> If you are
    >> new to web design, you shouldn't have a client until you've learned
    >> something about the craft you are trying to execute.

    >
    > You old fuddy duddy! America was built on people taking wild
    > risks, learning on the job and so on. Do you have some book on
    > attitudes to take or do you actually think them up yourself?


    America was built on the backs of labourers too stupid and/or desperate to
    oppose the entreprenurial elite. Often these labourers were foreign or
    immigrants who felt themselves lucky just to have a job no matter how
    shitty. There's a rule-of-thumb in Labor even today: "The harder you work
    (physically), the less you get paid." I'm not saying that supervisors
    aren't needed, but historically the disparity in wages is ludicrous.

    America developed much like biological evolution. Not the best way, hardly
    ever, but a viable way. It was far from perfect, but it worked. Now while
    I support the concept that a man should benefit from the fruit of his
    labors in proportion to his efforts, there are (to me) obvious limits which
    should not be exceeded. I seriously doubt that it is equitable for someone
    to earn 10,000 times the money of the average employee no matter what he
    does or how good he is at doing it.

    --
    Neredbojias
    He who laughs last sounds like an idiot.
     
    Neredbojias, May 1, 2007
    #10
  11. Jane Jesi

    dorayme Guest

    In article <Xns99237EDECEF6nanopandaneredbojias@208.49.80.251>,
    Neredbojias <> wrote:

    > On Sat, 28 Apr 2007 23:03:50 GMT dorayme scribed:
    >
    > > In article <Xns9920402FFFE42nanopandaneredbojias@208.49.80.251>,
    > > Neredbojias <> wrote:
    > >
    > >> If you are
    > >> new to web design, you shouldn't have a client until you've learned
    > >> something about the craft you are trying to execute.

    > >
    > > You old fuddy duddy! America was built on people taking wild
    > > risks, learning on the job and so on.


    > America was built on the backs of labourers too stupid and/or desperate to
    > oppose the entreprenurial elite.


    You are putting up a smoke screen, babbling [1] will not get you
    out of fuddy duddiness.

    _________________
    [1] copyright JK

    --
    dorayme
     
    dorayme, May 1, 2007
    #11
  12. Jane Jesi

    Neredbojias Guest

    On Tue, 01 May 2007 22:01:36 GMT dorayme scribed:

    >> >> If you are
    >> >> new to web design, you shouldn't have a client until you've
    >> >> learned something about the craft you are trying to execute.
    >> >
    >> > You old fuddy duddy! America was built on people taking wild
    >> > risks, learning on the job and so on.

    >
    >> America was built on the backs of labourers too stupid and/or
    >> desperate to oppose the entreprenurial elite.

    >
    > You are putting up a smoke screen, babbling [1] will not get you
    > out of fuddy duddiness.


    Well, I was _trying_ to give you my honest opinion. There are times to
    take risks, but producing and selling a product or service you know little
    about is not one of them. Do you wing it when you deal with your own
    customers? (-Or aren't wombats particularly fussy?)

    --
    Neredbojias
    He who laughs last sounds like an idiot.
     
    Neredbojias, May 2, 2007
    #12
  13. Jane Jesi

    dorayme Guest

    In article <Xns9923ED2D06ECBnanopandaneredbojias@208.49.80.251>,
    Neredbojias <> wrote:

    > On Tue, 01 May 2007 22:01:36 GMT dorayme scribed:
    >
    > >> >> If you are
    > >> >> new to web design, you shouldn't have a client until you've
    > >> >> learned something about the craft you are trying to execute.
    > >> >
    > >> > You old fuddy duddy! America was built on people taking wild
    > >> > risks, learning on the job and so on.

    > >
    > >> America was built on the backs of labourers too stupid and/or
    > >> desperate to oppose the entreprenurial elite.

    > >
    > > You are putting up a smoke screen, babbling [1] will not get you
    > > out of fuddy duddiness.

    >
    > There are times to
    > take risks, but producing and selling a product or service you know little
    > about is not one of them.


    And now you repeat this fuddy duddy opinion again! So I will take
    the opportunity to label it a bit stronger. It is a miserable,
    cowardly, moral dictum.

    If a person knows a little and has confidence in themselves and
    wants to strike out in a new direction and is quoting for a job
    and delivers as agreed, then it it does not matter that he or she
    learnt on the job. Get real!

    --
    dorayme
     
    dorayme, May 2, 2007
    #13
  14. Jane Jesi

    Neredbojias Guest

    On Wed, 02 May 2007 19:53:02 GMT dorayme scribed:

    >> There are times to
    >> take risks, but producing and selling a product or service you know
    >> little about is not one of them.

    >
    > And now you repeat this fuddy duddy opinion again! So I will take
    > the opportunity to label it a bit stronger. It is a miserable,
    > cowardly, moral dictum.
    >
    > If a person knows a little and has confidence in themselves and
    > wants to strike out in a new direction and is quoting for a job
    > and delivers as agreed, then it it does not matter that he or she
    > learnt on the job. Get real!


    Kudos, you'd fit right in at Microsoft. Their stuff works as stipulated,
    too, despite the bloat, security lapses, and less-than-efficient algorthms
    and methods of accomplishing the aims.

    Listen here, sister, ways and means always count. Joe the mechanic might
    be able to make a nuclear reactor, but would you rather have his or one
    constructed by J.R. Oppenheimer?

    I can't believe you're so argumentative! Well, actually, I _can_ believe
    it because it's an obvious fact (though I used to attribute such to
    approximately lunar cycles.)

    --
    Neredbojias
    He who laughs last sounds like an idiot.
     
    Neredbojias, May 4, 2007
    #14
  15. Jane Jesi

    dorayme Guest

    In article <Xns9925BB45D333Bnanopandaneredbojias@208.49.80.251>,
    Neredbojias <> wrote:

    > On Wed, 02 May 2007 19:53:02 GMT dorayme scribed:
    >
    > >> There are times to
    > >> take risks, but producing and selling a product or service you know
    > >> little about is not one of them.

    > >
    > > And now you repeat this fuddy duddy opinion again! So I will take
    > > the opportunity to label it a bit stronger. It is a miserable,
    > > cowardly, moral dictum.
    > >
    > > If a person knows a little and has confidence in themselves and
    > > wants to strike out in a new direction and is quoting for a job
    > > and delivers as agreed, then it it does not matter that he or she
    > > learnt on the job. Get real!

    >
    > Kudos, you'd fit right in at Microsoft. Their stuff works as stipulated,
    > too, despite the bloat, security lapses, and less-than-efficient algorthms
    > and methods of accomplishing the aims.
    >


    This is pure babble. If you want help, tell us what your real
    problem is. And use your real name. it is cowardly to try to
    escape a charge of fuddy duddiness in an anonymous name.

    > Listen here, sister, ways and means always count. Joe the mechanic might
    > be able to make a nuclear reactor, but would you rather have his or one
    > constructed by J.R. Oppenheimer?


    Brother, you really do have a cheek. A website is not something
    to endanger a life and if someone offers to make one for you and
    is obviously keen and knows a bit, then sure. I would see it when
    it is made and confirm the delivery was worth the quote. You are
    babbling hard, brother, but you still cannot lift that weight of
    fuddy duddiness.

    Look, you can just take a different attitude, rejoice in being
    old and rigid and o so stiffly moral.

    >
    > I can't believe you're so argumentative!


    As I said, you have an awful cheek! <g>

    --
    dorayme
     
    dorayme, May 4, 2007
    #15
  16. Jane Jesi

    Neredbojias Guest

    On Fri, 04 May 2007 01:47:26 GMT dorayme scribed:

    >> Kudos, you'd fit right in at Microsoft. Their stuff works as
    >> stipulated, too, despite the bloat, security lapses, and
    >> less-than-efficient algorthms and methods of accomplishing the aims.
    >>

    >
    > This is pure babble. If you want help, tell us what your real
    > problem is. And use your real name. it is cowardly to try to
    > escape a charge of fuddy duddiness in an anonymous name.


    What's my real name got to do with it? I suppose your real name is
    "dorayme"... Furthermore, I wasn't the one seeking help. Further
    furthermore, I'm virtually certain that fuddy duddiness isn't even a
    word. And speaking of babble: pot-kettle-black. It must be lonely out
    thare in that Australian outback, or perhaps you're just a hopeless
    hypernagissimist.

    >> Listen here, sister, ways and means always count. Joe the mechanic
    >> might be able to make a nuclear reactor, but would you rather have
    >> his or one constructed by J.R. Oppenheimer?

    >
    > Brother, you really do have a cheek. A website is not something
    > to endanger a life and if someone offers to make one for you and
    > is obviously keen and knows a bit, then sure. I would see it when
    > it is made and confirm the delivery was worth the quote. You are
    > babbling hard, brother, but you still cannot lift that weight of
    > fuddy duddiness.


    Uh, I have 4 cheeks - 2 upper and 2 lower. If you wish to kiss a pair, I
    can direct you accordingly.

    Btw, exactly what criteria do you use to determine if someone "is
    obviously keen"?

    > Look, you can just take a different attitude, rejoice in being
    > old and rigid and o so stiffly moral.
    >
    >>
    >> I can't believe you're so argumentative!

    >
    > As I said, you have an awful cheek! <g>


    No, you didn't say "awful". Can't you remember what you said just a few
    sentences ago when it's even written before your eyes??

    (PS: I hope you realize my comments are made good-naturedly in the spirit
    of convivial sparring. I thought it best to add this disclaimer because
    things do sometimes seem to go over your head. <g style="wry">)

    --
    Neredbojias
    He who laughs last sounds like an idiot.
     
    Neredbojias, May 6, 2007
    #16
  17. Jane Jesi

    dorayme Guest

    In article <Xns9927B650C364Enanopandaneredbojias@208.49.80.251>,
    Neredbojias <> wrote:

    > > As I said, you have an awful cheek! <g>

    >
    > No, you didn't say "awful". Can't you remember what you said just a few
    > sentences ago when it's even written before your eyes??


    With an online reader, it is not so. If someone wants to have a
    go at something and is keen and has confidence in himself or
    herself, please don't sit up on that high moral horse and say
    stuffy old fuddy duddy things to him or her.

    --
    dorayme
     
    dorayme, May 6, 2007
    #17
  18. Jane Jesi

    Neredbojias Guest

    On Sun, 06 May 2007 01:07:28 GMT dorayme scribed:

    > In article <Xns9927B650C364Enanopandaneredbojias@208.49.80.251>,
    > Neredbojias <> wrote:
    >
    >> > As I said, you have an awful cheek! <g>

    >>
    >> No, you didn't say "awful". Can't you remember what you said just a
    >> few sentences ago when it's even written before your eyes??

    >
    > With an online reader, it is not so. If someone wants to have a
    > go at something and is keen and has confidence in himself or
    > herself, please don't sit up on that high moral horse and say
    > stuffy old fuddy duddy things to him or her.


    Well, that sounds like a nice sentiment, but what you are really saying is
    should someone want to make a fool of himself or herself, let him or her do
    it. You probably won't be surprised that I demure, but if it works for
    you...

    --
    Neredbojias
    He who laughs last sounds like an idiot.
     
    Neredbojias, May 7, 2007
    #18
  19. Jane Jesi

    dorayme Guest

    In article <Xns992981E0C9D95nanopandaneredbojias@208.49.80.251>,
    Neredbojias <> wrote:

    > On Sun, 06 May 2007 01:07:28 GMT dorayme scribed:
    >
    > > In article <Xns9927B650C364Enanopandaneredbojias@208.49.80.251>,
    > > Neredbojias <> wrote:
    > >
    > >> > As I said, you have an awful cheek! <g>
    > >>
    > >> No, you didn't say "awful". Can't you remember what you said just a
    > >> few sentences ago when it's even written before your eyes??

    > >
    > > With an online reader, it is not so. If someone wants to have a
    > > go at something and is keen and has confidence in himself or
    > > herself, please don't sit up on that high moral horse and say
    > > stuffy old fuddy duddy things to him or her.

    >
    > Well, that sounds like a nice sentiment, but what you are really saying is
    > should someone want to make a fool of himself or herself, let him or her do
    > it. You probably won't be surprised that I demure, but if it works for
    > you...


    You still don't get it. First it has nothing to do with it
    working for you or me. A person who is prepared to learn on a
    job, has confidence and sense to seek advice, can very
    satisfactorily satisfy both himself and the client. You are
    fixated by the hysterical picture of the adventurer falling flat
    on his face. This inability to respect the possibilities of good
    and wholesome futures based on dash and nerve is fuddy duddiness.

    --
    dorayme
     
    dorayme, May 7, 2007
    #19
  20. Jane Jesi

    Neredbojias Guest

    On Mon, 07 May 2007 22:42:31 GMT dorayme scribed:

    >> > With an online reader, it is not so. If someone wants to have a
    >> > go at something and is keen and has confidence in himself or
    >> > herself, please don't sit up on that high moral horse and say
    >> > stuffy old fuddy duddy things to him or her.

    >>
    >> Well, that sounds like a nice sentiment, but what you are really
    >> saying is should someone want to make a fool of himself or herself,
    >> let him or her do it. You probably won't be surprised that I demure,
    >> but if it works for you...

    >
    > You still don't get it. First it has nothing to do with it
    > working for you or me. A person who is prepared to learn on a
    > job, has confidence and sense to seek advice, can very
    > satisfactorily satisfy both himself and the client. You are
    > fixated by the hysterical picture of the adventurer falling flat
    > on his face. This inability to respect the possibilities of good
    > and wholesome futures based on dash and nerve is fuddy duddiness.


    Well coitainly, dash and nerve will save the day sometimes, but isn't it
    more likely that education and experience shall better serve? That's only
    logical, and to consider reasonableness fuddy-duddiness is surely a sign of
    erroneous thinking on the part of the boo-booer. I'm not saying that
    enthusiasm will _never_ work, just that it's less dependable than a more
    calculated and erudite approach. This is or at least should be self-
    evident, like not whizzing into the wind.

    --
    Neredbojias
    He who laughs last sounds like an idiot.
     
    Neredbojias, May 9, 2007
    #20
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