"Subtitle" / Description

Discussion in 'HTML' started by shapper, Oct 8, 2009.

  1. shapper

    shapper Guest

    Hello,

    I would like to display something like:

    Contact
    find all answers to your questions
    $Some text$

    I was using:
    <h2>Contact<span>find all answers to your questions</span></h2>
    <p>Some Text</p>

    However, when checking in Opera Table of contents it shows:
    "Contact find all answers to your questions"

    It sounds strange to me ...

    Should I use, instead, something as follows:
    <h2>Contact</h2>
    <p class="description">find all answers to your questions</p>
    <p>Some Text</p>

    Or any other suggestion you might have ...

    Thanks,
    Miguel
    shapper, Oct 8, 2009
    #1
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  2. shapper wrote:

    > I would like to display something like:
    >
    > Contact
    > find all answers to your questions
    > $Some text$


    What's the problem with that?

    > I was using:
    > <h2>Contact<span>find all answers to your questions</span></h2>
    > <p>Some Text</p>


    Why?

    > However, when checking in Opera Table of contents it shows:
    > "Contact find all answers to your questions"


    Well, if you declare it as 2nd level heading, why don't you want it to be
    treated like one?

    > Should I use, instead, something as follows:
    > <h2>Contact</h2>
    > <p class="description">find all answers to your questions</p>


    Is "Contact" alone a 2nd level heading? Sounds odd? Is "find all answers to
    your questions" a paragraph of text?

    > Or any other suggestion you might have ...


    Try revealing the real content. Maybe the structure can be derived from it.
    Or describe it in logical terms, then the desired visual appearance.

    --
    Yucca, http://www.cs.tut.fi/~jkorpela/
    Jukka K. Korpela, Oct 8, 2009
    #2
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  3. shapper

    C A Upsdell Guest

    shapper wrote:
    > Hello,
    >
    > I would like to display something like:
    >
    > Contact
    > find all answers to your questions
    > $Some text$
    >
    > I was using:
    > <h2>Contact<span>find all answers to your questions</span></h2>
    > <p>Some Text</p>
    >
    > However, when checking in Opera Table of contents it shows:
    > "Contact find all answers to your questions"


    First, make sure your HTML and CSS is valid: coding errors can have
    weird results.

    If the problem persists, post back with a URL.
    C A Upsdell, Oct 8, 2009
    #3
  4. Gazing into my crystal ball I observed shapper <>
    writing in news:20931f3a-e428-4c3e-84e8-e2010f628ea4
    @v20g2000vbs.googlegroups.com:

    > Hello,
    >
    > I would like to display something like:
    >
    > Contact
    > find all answers to your questions
    > $Some text$
    >
    > I was using:
    ><h2>Contact<span>find all answers to your questions</span></h2>
    ><p>Some Text</p>
    >
    > However, when checking in Opera Table of contents it shows:
    > "Contact find all answers to your questions"
    >
    > It sounds strange to me ...
    >
    > Should I use, instead, something as follows:
    ><h2>Contact</h2>
    ><p class="description">find all answers to your questions</p>
    ><p>Some Text</p>
    >
    > Or any other suggestion you might have ...
    >


    If the sentence makes sense out of context, then it's good to go. Does
    "Contact find all answers to your questions" make sense out of context?
    Maybe <h2>Contact Us <span>and find all answers to your questions</span>
    </h2> sounds better?

    --
    Adrienne Boswell at Home
    Arbpen Web Site Design Services
    http://www.cavalcade-of-coding.info
    Please respond to the group so others can share
    Adrienne Boswell, Oct 8, 2009
    #4
  5. shapper

    richard Guest

    On Thu, 8 Oct 2009 10:05:04 -0700 (PDT), shapper wrote:

    > Hello,
    >
    > I would like to display something like:
    >
    > Contact
    > find all answers to your questions
    > $Some text$
    >
    > I was using:
    > <h2>Contact<span>find all answers to your questions</span></h2>
    > <p>Some Text</p>
    >
    > However, when checking in Opera Table of contents it shows:
    > "Contact find all answers to your questions"
    >
    > It sounds strange to me ...
    >
    > Should I use, instead, something as follows:
    > <h2>Contact</h2>
    > <p class="description">find all answers to your questions</p>
    > <p>Some Text</p>
    >
    > Or any other suggestion you might have ...
    >
    > Thanks,
    > Miguel


    Why are you span-ing the text?
    If you want the text spanned on a second line, then use <br>.

    <h2>Contact</h2>
    <br>
    line of text here.
    richard, Oct 8, 2009
    #5
  6. Gazing into my crystal ball I observed richard <>
    writing in news::

    > On Thu, 8 Oct 2009 10:05:04 -0700 (PDT), shapper wrote:
    >
    >> Hello,
    >>
    >> I would like to display something like:
    >>
    >> Contact
    >> find all answers to your questions
    >> $Some text$
    >>
    >> I was using:
    >> <h2>Contact<span>find all answers to your questions</span></h2>
    >> <p>Some Text</p>
    >>
    >> However, when checking in Opera Table of contents it shows:
    >> "Contact find all answers to your questions"
    >>
    >> It sounds strange to me ...
    >>
    >> Should I use, instead, something as follows:
    >> <h2>Contact</h2>
    >> <p class="description">find all answers to your questions</p>
    >> <p>Some Text</p>
    >>
    >> Or any other suggestion you might have ...
    >>
    >> Thanks,
    >> Miguel

    >
    > Why are you span-ing the text?
    > If you want the text spanned on a second line, then use <br>.
    >
    ><h2>Contact</h2>
    ><br>
    > line of text here.
    >


    You might have something like:

    <h2>Heading<br>
    <span>Subtitle</span>
    </h2>

    and h2 span might be a smaller font. That's why.

    --
    Adrienne Boswell at Home
    Arbpen Web Site Design Services
    http://www.cavalcade-of-coding.info
    Please respond to the group so others can share
    Adrienne Boswell, Oct 8, 2009
    #6
  7. Adrienne Boswell wrote:

    >> <h2>Contact<span>find all answers to your questions</span></h2>

    - -
    > If the sentence makes sense out of context, then it's good to go.


    I think the crucial question is whether a piece of text makes a good
    heading, or at least a heading at all.

    > Does "Contact find all answers to your questions" make sense out of
    > context?


    I don't it does, but the content is here really
    "Contactfind all answers to your questions"
    which makes even less sense. (And that's how good search engines "see" the
    text.)

    The <span> markup does not imply any semantics, and it does not constitute a
    word break at the start of the element.

    --
    Yucca, http://www.cs.tut.fi/~jkorpela/
    Jukka K. Korpela, Oct 8, 2009
    #7
  8. shapper

    shapper Guest

    On Oct 8, 8:04 pm, "Jukka K. Korpela" <> wrote:
    > Adrienne Boswell wrote:
    > >> <h2>Contact<span>find all answers to your questions</span></h2>

    > - -
    > > If the sentence makes sense out of context, then it's good to go.

    >
    > I think the crucial question is whether a piece of text makes a good
    > heading, or at least a heading at all.
    >
    > > Does "Contact find all answers to your questions" make sense out of
    > > context?

    >
    > I don't it does, but the content is here really
    > "Contactfind all answers to your questions"
    > which makes even less sense. (And that's how good search engines "see" the
    > text.)
    >
    > The <span> markup does not imply any semantics, and it does not constitute a
    > word break at the start of the element.
    >
    > --
    > Yucca,http://www.cs.tut.fi/~jkorpela/


    This is more of a semantics question. On my example I have:

    <h2>Contact<span>find all answers to your questions</span></h2>

    What I am trying to say is:

    "Contact" >> This is the page title
    "Here you can find all answers to your questions" >> a preview of
    what the information of the page will give you.

    Another example:
    "Products"
    "Find the right product for you"

    In my opinion "Find the right product for you" does not belong to the
    Title.
    And it is not a subtitle either ...

    A subtitle, IMHO, would be:
    <h2>Products</h2>
    <h3 >Boots</h3>
    <h3> Jackets</h3>

    As follows:

    <h2>Products</h2>
    <span>Find all kind of products for winter</span>
    ....
    <h3 >Boots</h3>
    <span >Looking to wear your feet</span>
    ....
    <h3> Jackets</h3>
    <span>Get a warm jacket</span>

    And when using Opera's table of contents I would get :

    Products
    Boots
    Jackets

    This makes sense to me ... What do you think?
    .... The phrases inside span are not part of the title.
    Are just a catch up phrase for that title.

    Or maybe the catch up phrase could be inside a p tag?

    I am first trying to have the right semantics ... then I will care
    about the styling.

    Thank You,
    Miguel
    shapper, Oct 8, 2009
    #8
  9. shapper wrote:

    >> --
    >> Yucca,http://www.cs.tut.fi/~jkorpela/


    Fullquote down to the sig, always a useful cluelessness indicator.

    > This is more of a semantics question.


    You still haven't said anything about the meaning of markup. Without that,
    all that babble about semantics is just, er, "semantics" in the derogatory
    sense.

    On my example I have:

    > <h2>Contact<span>find all answers to your questions</span></h2>


    I already wrote, and you quoted, that the textual content is then
    "Contactfind all answers to your questions"

    > What I am trying to say is:
    >
    > "Contact" >> This is the page title
    > "Here you can find all answers to your questions" >> a preview of
    > what the information of the page will give you.


    You are not saying anything about the intended structure. Just outlining
    what you think your text should _look_ like in a primitive rendering
    environment, without actually giving any real text.

    > Another example:
    > "Products"
    > "Find the right product for you"


    Just words without structure.

    > In my opinion "Find the right product for you" does not belong to the
    > Title.


    So what's the problem then? Don't put it there.

    > <span>Find all kind of products for winter</span>


    I'd like to recommend the <spam> markup instead. You don't really have kalhu
    and lyly, do you? They are winter products too!

    > <h3 >Boots</h3>
    > <span >Looking to wear your feet</span>
    > ...
    > <h3> Jackets</h3>
    > <span>Get a warm jacket</span>


    This finally seems to make some sense. What you want is markup for a slogan
    or advertorial phrase. Well, it's not a paragraph (a normal paragraph is
    several sentences long and has more content than a slogan). It's not a
    heading either. It's supposed to be self-contained, to work as such, short
    and impressive and not a heading for anything - especially when you already
    have a heading like "Boots" or "Jackets". What's left is the semantically
    empty block container <div>. It's more logical than <span>, which is by
    definition inline markup. If the slogan is followed by a paragraph, then the
    default rendering is not affected (<span> and <div> would be similar then),
    but some day, someone puts e.g. an image right after the slogan, an then it
    matters.

    > Are just a catch up phrase for that title.


    You could put it that way... something that associates with a heading,
    without itself being a heading - and maybe associates with the following
    text, without being a heading for it.

    --
    Yucca, http://www.cs.tut.fi/~jkorpela/
    Jukka K. Korpela, Oct 8, 2009
    #9
  10. shapper

    shapper Guest

    On Oct 8, 9:20 pm, "Jukka K. Korpela" <> wrote:
    > What's left is the semantically
    > empty block container <div>. It's more logical than <span>, which is by
    > definition inline markup. If the slogan is followed by a paragraph, then the
    > default rendering is not affected (<span> and <div> would be similar then),
    > but some day, someone puts e.g. an image right after the slogan, an then it
    > matters.


    That is a problem I always have:
    I see a div as a section, a division, a small portion of a page.

    For me having a div containing a phrase feels strange to me ...

    Can't I use a span and with CSS use "display: block"?

    For example, if I need to display the following information for a
    professor, which is included in a list:

    Name (City)
    Email, Phone
    Subjects (Subject(s) that the professor lectures)
    Levels (Education level(s) that he/she teaches)

    An example:
    John Smith (Lisbon)
    , 971122332
    Mathematics, Physics and Chemistry
    College

    Wouldn't make sense to have the following?

    <div class="Professor">
    <p>John Smith <span class="City">(Lisbon)</span></p>
    <p>, 971122332</p>
    <p>Mathematics, Physics and Chemistry</p>
    <p>College</p>
    </div>
    <div class="Professor">
    ... Other professor
    </div>

    This is actually an example that I am working and which I am not sure
    how to do it and that contains that div/span/p problem.

    Maybe you would replace all the p tags by divs?

    Thank You,
    Miguel
    shapper, Oct 8, 2009
    #10
  11. shapper wrote:

    > That is a problem I always have:
    > I see a div as a section, a division, a small portion of a page.


    What's the problem with that? It's a division, at block level.

    > For me having a div containing a phrase feels strange to me ...


    Isn't it a division that is inline text?

    > Can't I use a span and with CSS use "display: block"?


    Why would you do that? You would use markup that is by definition
    text-level, then do your best to make it look like something else?

    > <div class="Professor">
    > <p>John Smith <span class="City">(Lisbon)</span></p>
    > <p>, 971122332</p>
    > <p>Mathematics, Physics and Chemistry</p>
    > <p>College</p>
    > </div>


    Do you actually read the responses you get? I wrote about paragraphs,
    something that is common knowledge that can be checked in dictionaries. Can
    you find any definition, even a sloppy and loose one, that classifies e.g.
    the word "College" as a _paragraph_ of text?

    As an aside, do you really want that a speech browser significantly pauses
    between lines of contact information and possibly raises voice at the start
    of each line? That's how it could conceivably and usefully render
    _paragraphs_ of text - and nothing you say in CSS won't affect it (as you
    would not use aural rules in CSS, and even if you did, it would probably get
    ignore).

    > This is actually an example that I am working and which I am not sure
    > how to do it and that contains that div/span/p problem.


    Which problem? The real problem is whether you should use <div> for a line
    or just <br> between lines, or maybe a table. And it's not a big issue, as
    long as you are consistent

    --
    Yucca, http://www.cs.tut.fi/~jkorpela/
    Jukka K. Korpela, Oct 8, 2009
    #11
  12. shapper

    shapper Guest

    On Oct 8, 9:54 pm, "Jukka K. Korpela" <> wrote:

    > Do you actually read the responses you get? I wrote about paragraphs,
    > something that is common knowledge that can be checked in dictionaries. Can
    > you find any definition, even a sloppy and loose one, that classifies e.g..
    > the word "College" as a _paragraph_ of text?


    Yes, I read and that is why I posted this example here.
    I am doing it wrong ... I now realize it.

    So I should do:

    <div class="Professor">
    John Smith <span class="City">(Lisbon)</span><br />
    , 971122332<br />
    Mathematics, Physics and Chemistry<br />
    College
    </div>

    Or probably in this case use a p as wrapper instead of div? Not?
    And when there is a need to change the style on one of these lines I
    just wrap it in a span.

    > As an aside, do you really want that a speech browser significantly pauses
    > between lines of contact information and possibly raises voice at the start
    > of each line?


    No, I don't. Got it.

    Thank You,
    Miguel
    shapper, Oct 8, 2009
    #12
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