Successor to Java?

Discussion in 'Java' started by George W. Cherry, Sep 13, 2004.

  1. Is the successor to Java on anyone's horizon?
    Prentice-Hall published four of my books which
    featured languages (now defunct) which I loved
    and embraced--Pascal and Ada. While three
    of those books sold very well in the early '80's,
    they are now out of print and recently the MIT
    engineering library "warehoused" two of them,
    because they had not been checked out for a
    decade.

    I'm writing a new book, currently using Java.

    http://sdm.book.home.comcast.net

    By the time I finish it (2009?), will Java be an
    anachronism like Pascal and Ada?

    George
     
    George W. Cherry, Sep 13, 2004
    #1
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  2. On Mon, 13 Sep 2004 18:27:42 GMT, George W. Cherry
    <> wrote:

    > Is the successor to Java on anyone's horizon?
    > Prentice-Hall published four of my books which
    > featured languages (now defunct) which I loved
    > and embraced--Pascal and Ada. While three
    > of those books sold very well in the early '80's,
    > they are now out of print and recently the MIT
    > engineering library "warehoused" two of them,
    > because they had not been checked out for a
    > decade.
    >
    > I'm writing a new book, currently using Java.
    >
    > http://sdm.book.home.comcast.net
    >
    > By the time I finish it (2009?), will Java be an
    > anachronism like Pascal and Ada?
    >
    > George
    >


    Given the volume of existing Java code at work in
    the world, it is more likely to become a living
    fossil like COBOL. No longer cool, but essential to
    many enterprises.
     
    William Brogden, Sep 13, 2004
    #2
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  3. > Is the successor to Java on anyone's horizon?


    One interesting point about Java is that it brought features from the world of
    academic research into mainstream. Initially that was mainly garbage
    collection, and now with Java 5 genericity. Of course this process is very
    slow (something like 8 years between the first proposals for genericity in
    Java and their introduction in the language). One also needs to take into
    account that mainstream languages tend to be built incrementally from the
    previous champion (C++ after C, Java after C++). Given these two factors,
    Pizza (http://pizzacompiler.sourceforge.net/) or Nice (http://nice.sf.net)
    might give you an idea what the next Java could look like.

    The advent of common runtime (the JRE and the CLR) is favorable to
    collaboration between different languages, so it well be that no single
    language will become dominant, but the market will be more evenly divided
    between several interoperable languages with different strengthes and target
    audiences (static or dynamic typing, different paradigms, ...).

    Daniel
     
    Daniel Bonniot, Sep 13, 2004
    #3
  4. "William Brogden" <> wrote in message
    news:eek:psd931u06k0yerx@ruby...
    > On Mon, 13 Sep 2004 18:27:42 GMT, George W. Cherry
    > <> wrote:
    >
    > > Is the successor to Java on anyone's horizon?
    > > Prentice-Hall published four of my books which
    > > featured languages (now defunct) which I loved
    > > and embraced--Pascal and Ada. While three
    > > of those books sold very well in the early '80's,
    > > they are now out of print and recently the MIT
    > > engineering library "warehoused" two of them,
    > > because they had not been checked out for a
    > > decade.
    > >
    > > I'm writing a new book, currently using Java.
    > >
    > > http://sdm.book.home.comcast.net
    > >
    > > By the time I finish it (2009?), will Java be an
    > > anachronism like Pascal and Ada?
    > >
    > > George
    > >

    >
    > Given the volume of existing Java code at work in
    > the world, it is more likely to become a living
    > fossil like COBOL. No longer cool, but essential to
    > many enterprises.


    Okay, I'll rephrase my question.
    What's the COOL successor to Java?
    Anyone have a candidate?
    Perhaps it's the Tiger release.
    I dig cool.

    George
     
    George W. Cherry, Sep 13, 2004
    #4
  5. George W. Cherry

    Alan Meyer Guest

    "George W. Cherry" <> wrote in
    message news:yEl1d.37220$MQ5.30705@attbi_s52...
    > Is the successor to Java on anyone's horizon?
    > Prentice-Hall published four of my books which
    > featured languages (now defunct) which I loved
    > and embraced--Pascal and Ada. While three
    > of those books sold very well in the early '80's,
    > they are now out of print and recently the MIT
    > engineering library "warehoused" two of them,
    > because they had not been checked out for a
    > decade.
    >
    > I'm writing a new book, currently using Java.
    >
    > http://sdm.book.home.comcast.net
    >
    > By the time I finish it (2009?), will Java be an
    > anachronism like Pascal and Ada?
    >
    > George


    It is sad but true that many programmers wanting a book
    on algorithms or programming concepts will insist on
    only buying one with examples in the language they are using.
    As an author, you are therefore at risk no matter what
    language you choose.

    I imagine that Java is as good a choice as anything else.
    It is available on many platforms, and fits the model
    that Microsoft likes to call "managed code", i.e., code
    that takes memory management and security out of the
    hands of the programmer and puts it into the underlying
    virtual machine - protecting the system from some of
    the most deadly kinds of bugs. Over the long run, I think
    languages of that type will supplant languages like C++
    for applications programming - though not for systems
    programming or programming of high volume utilities,
    editors, web browsers, and the like.

    Java is also a very clear and readable language, more
    so perhaps than Perl or C++. And it's free, so any
    student can get a copy. It should be a good choice
    for teaching.

    I've been very impressed with Python as a clear and
    readable language with good object oriented features.
    It's also free. I presume it's not yet as popular as Java
    and don't know if it ever will be. There are some things
    about Java I like better than Python (much more compile
    time checking) and some things I like better about
    Python (more flexible exception processing, more
    flexible character encoding, better access to the
    environment.)

    Java has a much bigger API library. Python's is
    smaller, but with certain heavily used elements like
    lists and "dictionaries" more tightly integrated and
    easier to use.

    Alan
     
    Alan Meyer, Sep 13, 2004
    #5
  6. George W. Cherry

    Alex Kizub Guest

    >I finish it (2009?)
    You are kidding! You are writing the book about Java for 5 years!
    It will be definitely Java but not such book.
    Already published books become obsolete immediatelly.
    And you have plan for 5 years...
    Save yor time, write about trees which you can save.

    Alex Kizub.
    Sorry, nothing personal. It's all about Java which grows too fast!

    "George W. Cherry" wrote:

    > Is the successor to Java on anyone's horizon?
    > Prentice-Hall published four of my books which
    > featured languages (now defunct) which I loved
    > and embraced--Pascal and Ada. While three
    > of those books sold very well in the early '80's,
    > they are now out of print and recently the MIT
    > engineering library "warehoused" two of them,
    > because they had not been checked out for a
    > decade.
    >
    > I'm writing a new book, currently using Java.
    >
    > http://sdm.book.home.comcast.net
    >
    > By the time I finish it (2009?), will Java be an
    > anachronism like Pascal and Ada?
    >
    > George
     
    Alex Kizub, Sep 14, 2004
    #6
  7. George W. Cherry

    Will Hartung Guest

    "George W. Cherry" <> wrote in
    message news:yEl1d.37220$MQ5.30705@attbi_s52...
    > Is the successor to Java on anyone's horizon?
    > Prentice-Hall published four of my books which
    > featured languages (now defunct) which I loved
    > and embraced--Pascal and Ada. While three
    > of those books sold very well in the early '80's,
    > they are now out of print and recently the MIT
    > engineering library "warehoused" two of them,
    > because they had not been checked out for a
    > decade.
    >
    > I'm writing a new book, currently using Java.
    >
    > http://sdm.book.home.comcast.net
    >
    > By the time I finish it (2009?), will Java be an
    > anachronism like Pascal and Ada?


    Nope, and here's why.

    Pascal had designed in limitations that really made it difficult to do Real
    Work(tm), so you had several dialects but no real workable standard for the
    language. It was basically usurped by C in the 80's, which rode the wave of
    several consistent implementations on PCs as well as being the backbone of
    the expanding workstation market (ala Unix).

    Ada, while a fine language, never had deep penetration. Notably because of
    its complexity, which made porting it to the newer, smaller hardware,
    difficult.

    Neither of these languages developed the core base and vendor support that
    really propels languages in the market place. Pascal peaked twice, first
    when it broke through with Turbo Pascal, and then later with Delphi. Ada
    never peaked at all save maybe in the Defense industry because of the DoD
    mandates.

    Java, on the other hand, is now an extremely popular language, which enjoys
    several implementations across most every platform available, an ENORMOUS
    amount of available source code, and a wide array of practitioners ranging
    from the embedded cell phone market up to modern monster mainframes and
    clusters.

    The biggest problem you may encounter would be having to bring your source
    code up to date to the then current version of the JVM. Unless some of the
    whatever new features they add are extremely compelling to your work, you
    need not ensure that it leverages every latest bell or whistle. Just ensure
    that your code actually compiles and runs on a recent JDK for the time.

    Java 5 (1.5) is just around the corner, but I can assure you that once it
    gets finally released, in 2005, it can easily be a year before, for example,
    the major app server vendors even validate their servers to run on the new
    release. So, by 2009, we should be well into Java 6.

    If you write against Java 5, and then make a quick run through to ensure
    that everything is ok for Java 6, I think you'll be fine.

    Java isn't going anywhere. It is simply getting more pervasive, faster, and
    more accepted. It still has the wind behind it and I can't see anything
    taking its dominant place in 5 years.

    Regards,

    Will Hartung
    ()
     
    Will Hartung, Sep 14, 2004
    #7
  8. On Mon, 13 Sep 2004 18:20:30 -0700, Will Hartung wrote:
    > Java 5 (1.5) is just around the corner, but I can assure you that
    > once it gets finally released, in 2005, it can easily be a year
    > before, for example, the major app server vendors even validate
    > their servers to run on the new release. So, by 2009, we should be
    > well into Java 6.


    Java Five?

    Although Sun seems to have renamed j2se 1.5 to j2se 5.0 (when did that
    happen?), it's still called Java 2...

    From http://java.sun.com/j2se/1.5.0/download.jsp:

    "Download Java 2 Platform Standard Edition 5.0 RC"

    /gordon

    --
    [ do not email me copies of your followups ]
    g o r d o n + n e w s @ b a l d e r 1 3 . s e
     
    Gordon Beaton, Sep 14, 2004
    #8
  9. "George W. Cherry" <> writes:

    > Okay, I'll rephrase my question.
    > What's the COOL successor to Java?


    COOL was the codename Microsoft used for C#.

    :)

    But the question is better suited for clj.advocacy.
     
    Tor Iver Wilhelmsen, Sep 14, 2004
    #9
  10. Gordon Beaton <> writes:

    > Although Sun seems to have renamed j2se 1.5 to j2se 5.0 (when did that
    > happen?)


    When C#'s next version was called C# 2.0. You cannot have Java 1.5 and
    C# 2.0, it will sound like Java is less than C#.
     
    Tor Iver Wilhelmsen, Sep 14, 2004
    #10
  11. George W. Cherry

    Yakov Guest

    >
    > I'm writing a new book, currently using Java.
    >
    > http://sdm.book.home.comcast.net
    >
    > By the time I finish it (2009?), will Java be an
    > anachronism like Pascal and Ada?
    >
    > George


    Based on my experience, unless it's a language tutorial, Java books
    become obsolete within 2 years or so. People are still purchasing my
    Java tutorial that was published 2 years ago, but this may not be the
    case with other version specific books. People are buying books on
    Unix that were published 20 years ago, but as opposed to Unix, Java
    open source technologies and J2EE are living creatures and they keep
    changing really fast.

    If you need five years to write a Java book, most likely you're still
    learning the language yourself. Unless you're extremely talented
    writer, this project does not have legs...

    Good luck anyway

    Yakov
    http://www.sys-con.com/author/?id=2514
     
    Yakov, Sep 14, 2004
    #11

  12. > You are kidding! You are writing the book about Java for 5 years!
    > It will be definitely Java but not such book.
    > Already published books become obsolete immediatelly.
    > And you have plan for 5 years...


    Yes, that's a long timeframe. But note that this is not a book _about_ Java,
    it's a book about "Situation-Driven Modeling" _using_ Java as the language for
    its examples. So how much Java evolves in the mean time does not matter much.

    Daniel

    The Nice programming language: http://nice.sf.net
     
    Daniel Bonniot, Sep 14, 2004
    #12
  13. "George W. Cherry" <> wrote in message news:<yEl1d.37220$MQ5.30705@attbi_s52>...
    > Is the successor to Java on anyone's horizon?


    I don't see any successor to Java right now. The Java language is
    pretty good (with Java 5), the platform implementations (JVM's) are
    the best available for any VM language, the available class libraries
    are of very high quality and the developer tools are the best
    available. As long as Java keeps developing it could remain the most
    popular developer platform.

    C# is an alternative to Java for developers who don't mind being in
    the control of Microsoft. It's not a successor to Java, more like a
    clone.

    With Java 5 I think some big issues are fixed in the Java language,
    like covariant return types, generics and enums. Sure, there are
    better, cleaner languages available, but Java is good enough to stick
    around until some new revolutionary programming paradigm is invented
    (I don't see aspect oriented programming as anything revolutionary).
    Maybe the biggest drawback is the lack of access control. The public,
    private etc. access control system is too limited. There should be
    something similar to C++'s 'friend'.

    /Jesper Nordenberg
     
    Jesper Nordenberg, Sep 14, 2004
    #13
  14. "George W. Cherry" <> wrote in
    message news:yEl1d.37220$MQ5.30705@attbi_s52...
    > Is the successor to Java on anyone's horizon?
    > Prentice-Hall published four of my books which
    > featured languages (now defunct) which I loved
    > and embraced--Pascal and Ada. While three
    > of those books sold very well in the early '80's,
    > they are now out of print and recently the MIT
    > engineering library "warehoused" two of them,
    > because they had not been checked out for a
    > decade.
    >
    > I'm writing a new book, currently using Java.
    >
    > http://sdm.book.home.comcast.net
    >
    > By the time I finish it (2009?), will Java be an
    > anachronism like Pascal and Ada?


    Thanks for all the responses which I've read,
    appreciated, and sometimes read twice.

    Incidentally, the book project is not ABOUT
    Java--it's about Situation-Driven Modeling
    in Software Engineering (as one responder
    pointed out).

    BTW, Java is firmly ensconced at MIT. I just did
    a search for "Java" in MIT's OCW* initiative,
    and I got 382 page hits. While a few of these
    hits may be about coffee or the Indonesian
    Island, most of them are about the program-
    ming language Java. (Certainly "Java Junkies"
    in a Sloan School marketing course is about
    coffee.)

    But C# has had some adoptions also. Here's
    a description from a "Foundations of Soft-
    ware Engineering" course:

    Foundations of Software Engineering"Course Description:

    This is a foundation subject in modern software development techniques for
    engineering and information technology. The design and development of
    component-based software (using C# and .NET) is covered; data structures and
    algorithms for modeling, analysis, and visualization; basic problem-solving
    techniques; web services; and the management and maintenance of software.
    Includes a treatment of topics such as sorting and searching algorithms; and
    numerical simulation techniques. Foundation for in-depth exploration of
    image processing, computational geometry, finite element methods, network
    methods and e-business applications. This course is a core requirement for
    the Information Technology M. Eng. program.



    *OCW (Open Course Ware) is a free and open
    educational resource for faculty, students, and self-
    learners around the world.

    http://ocw.mit.edu/OcwWeb/index.htm
     
    George W. Cherry, Sep 14, 2004
    #14
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