SVG

Discussion in 'HTML' started by Luigi Donatello Asero, Jul 5, 2004.

  1. Luigi Donatello Asero, Jul 5, 2004
    #1
    1. Advertising

  2. Luigi Donatello Asero, Jul 5, 2004
    #2
    1. Advertising

  3. Luigi Donatello Asero

    brucie Guest

    in post: <news:O40Gc.4269$>
    Luigi Donatello Asero <> said:

    > Shall I have to use XML to create images by SVG


    if you like but i would go with a graphics program that can spew out SVG
    until you get to grips with it, much easier.

    > or can I use it also in Html?


    do you mean can you stick it in html pages? - yes.

    but support is icky poo so its only practical to use it in a controlled
    environment.

    if anyone is interested heres how to enable support for opera:
    http://my.opera.com/community/articles/browsers/enablesvg/

    --
    b r u c i e
     
    brucie, Jul 5, 2004
    #3
  4. "brucie" <> skrev i meddelandet
    news:1ajjnbny6ipc0$...
    > in post: <news:O40Gc.4269$>
    > Luigi Donatello Asero <> said:
    >
    > > Shall I have to use XML to create images by SVG

    >
    > if you like but i would go with a graphics program that can spew out SVG
    > until you get to grips with it, much easier.
    >
    > > or can I use it also in Html?

    >
    > do you mean can you stick it in html pages? - yes.
    >
    > but support is icky poo so its only practical to use it in a controlled
    > environment.
    >
    > if anyone is interested heres how to enable support for opera:
    > http://my.opera.com/community/articles/browsers/enablesvg/
    >
    > --
    > b r u c i e


    Does SVG substitute WAP for mobile phones?
    http://www.w3.org/TR/2004/WD-SVGMobile12-20040629/
    How do I allow users to print each photo which is contained on a page
    separately
    (checkpoint 1.2)?

    --
    Luigi ( un italiano che vive in Svezia)
    http://www.scaiecat-spa-gigi.com/it/svezia.html
    http://www.scaiecat-spa-gigi.com/sv/lagenhetitalien3.html
     
    Luigi Donatello Asero, Jul 5, 2004
    #4
  5. Luigi Donatello Asero

    brucie Guest

    in post: <news:nc2Gc.4273$>
    Luigi Donatello Asero <> said:

    > Does SVG substitute WAP for mobile phones?


    i have no idea what you're asking here

    > How do I allow users to print each photo which is contained on a page
    > separately


    if their browser doesn't already give them that ability just supply a
    link to the image file so they can handle it however they want.

    > (checkpoint 1.2)?


    checkpoint 1.2 of what?


    --
    b r u c i e
     
    brucie, Jul 5, 2004
    #5
  6. "brucie" <> skrev i meddelandet
    news:sotixxi0ja3y$...
    > in post: <news:nc2Gc.4273$>
    > Luigi Donatello Asero <> said:
    >
    > > Does SVG substitute WAP for mobile phones?

    >
    > i have no idea what you're asking here


    http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/
    As far as I understand it is no substitute for old mobile phones, but a new
    system for 3G mobile phones.
    >
    > > How do I allow users to print each photo which is contained on a page
    > > separately

    >
    > if their browser doesn't already give them that ability just supply a
    > link to the image file so they can handle it however they want.
    >
    > > (checkpoint 1.2)?


    >
    > checkpoint 1.2 of what?

    http://ncam.wgbh.org/cdrom/guideline/guideline1.html
    Also if I check up the page
    http://www.scaiecat-spa-gigi.com/sv/lagenhetitalien3.html
    at Bobby.
    http://bobby.watchfire.com/bobby/bo...talien3.html&output=Submit&gl=wcag1-aaa&test=
    I get one question mark on the left of the large photo and I suppose it has
    to do with printing.
    --
    Luigi ( un italiano che vive in Svezia)
    http://www.italymap.dk/sv/italien-karta.html
    http://www.scaiecat-spa-gigi.com/sv/lagenhetitalien3.html
     
    Luigi Donatello Asero, Jul 5, 2004
    #6
  7. Luigi Donatello Asero

    brucie Guest

    in post: <news:jF2Gc.4275$>
    Luigi Donatello Asero <> said:

    > http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/
    > As far as I understand it is no substitute for old mobile phones, but a new
    > system for 3G mobile phones.


    SVG - Scalable Vector GRAPHICS

    >> checkpoint 1.2 of what?


    > http://ncam.wgbh.org/cdrom/guideline/guideline1.html


    of course, how silly of me not to know that was the text you were
    referring to <repeatedly bangs head on desk/>

    > Also if I check up the page at Bobby.


    bobby cant correctly parse error free html and reports errors where none
    exist so don't put too much faith in what it tells you. also:
    http://www.cs.tut.fi/~jkorpela/www/acctools.html

    > http://bobby.watchfire.com/bobby/bo...talien3.html&output=Submit&gl=wcag1-aaa&test=
    > I get one question mark on the left of the large photo and I suppose it has
    > to do with printing.


    <quote>
    A question mark identifies a possible Priority 1 error that Bobby cannot
    fully automatically check, indicating that the user needs to address
    that question manually.
    </quote> http://bobby.watchfire.com/bobby/html/en/readreport.jsp

    if you read the report at the bottom of the page you checked it will
    tell you the manual checks you need to make.

    i hear my mommy calling me

    --
    b r u c i e
     
    brucie, Jul 5, 2004
    #7
  8. "Luigi Donatello Asero" <> wrote:

    > Can I create images by SVG only if I make use of XML or can I do it
    > also in
    > Html?


    SVG *is* written in XML. It is XML code.
    You can place a SVG object in a HTML web page.

    The Doormouse

    --
    The Doormouse cannot be reached by e-mail without her permission.
     
    The Doormouse, Jul 5, 2004
    #8
  9. "brucie" <> skrev i meddelandet
    news:sotixxi0ja3y$...
    > in post: <news:nc2Gc.4273$>
    > Luigi Donatello Asero <> said:
    >
    > > How do I allow users to print each photo which is contained on a page
    > > separately

    >
    > if their browser doesn't already give them that ability just supply a
    > link to the image file so they can handle it however they want.

    Well, one point says
    "If you use color to convey information, make sure the information is also
    represented another way. "
    Should I write in the description which I have added a link to, which
    colour the bed and the other objects in the photo are of?

    --
    Luigi ( un italiano che vive in Svezia)
    http://www.italymap.dk/sv/italien-karta.html
    http://www.scaiecat-spa-gigi.com/sv/faktaomitalien.html
     
    Luigi Donatello Asero, Jul 5, 2004
    #9
  10. Luigi Donatello Asero

    brucie Guest

    in post: <news:ERaGc.4289$>
    Luigi Donatello Asero <> said:

    > "If you use color to convey information, make sure the information is also
    > represented another way. "
    > Should I write in the description which I have added a link to, which
    > colour the bed and the other objects in the photo are of?


    is it relevant what color the bed is? is the red bed the bed of death so
    you shouldn't sleep in it?

    my mommy says i'm not allowed to play with you anymore

    --
    b r u c i e
     
    brucie, Jul 5, 2004
    #10
  11. "brucie" <> skrev i meddelandet
    news:16jpyavsv49di$...
    > in post: <news:ERaGc.4289$>
    > Luigi Donatello Asero <> said:
    >
    > > "If you use color to convey information, make sure the information is

    also
    > > represented another way. "
    > > Should I write in the description which I have added a link to, which
    > > colour the bed and the other objects in the photo are of?

    >
    > is it relevant what color the bed is? is the red bed the bed of death so
    > you shouldn't sleep in it?
    >
    > my mommy says i'm not allowed to play with you anymore
    >
    > --
    > b r u c i e


    I am trying to make the information of my site accessible also to those who
    are blind. Now the question is whether we should try to let blind people see
    all what people who are not blind already see, that means even colours in a
    picture.
    --
    Luigi ( un italiano che vive in Svezia)
    http://www.scaiecat-spa-gigi.com/sv/faktaomitalien.html
    http://www.scaiecat-spa-gigi.com/it/svezia.html
     
    Luigi Donatello Asero, Jul 5, 2004
    #11
  12. Luigi Donatello Asero

    rf Guest

    Luigi Donatello Asero wrote

    > I am trying to make the information of my site accessible also to those

    who
    > are blind. Now the question is whether we should try to let blind people

    see
    > all what people who are not blind already see, that means even colours in

    a
    > picture.


    You are kidding, right? "let blind people see"? How bloody arrogant!

    <assuming a person has been blind forever> How the bloody hell would they
    understand colour? Do you, a person without the sense of furble, understand
    woggel?

    <assuming a person has been rendered blind at some time in their life, after
    having been sighted> How would you feel if a web site pointed out your
    blindness by specifically aiming a "this is a RED thing" at you, as if to
    say "hey, you remember when you could see and you could see red things well
    here is a red thing"?



    I once met a person who lost her sight at around age 30. She was 35 when I
    met her. I did not at first notice that she was blind, nor did I notice for
    a whole day. She knew where *everything* was in her house. We even went on a
    drive with her husband (my business associate). She pointed out the nice
    islands just off the coast of New Zealand, Palmeston North IIRC. She
    "remembered" them and described them to me in detail, even to the fact that
    there are often a few container ships waiting near the one on the left. She
    even said "Can you see the container ships out there waiting to come into
    port :)". Yes, I did see them. I wondered briefly at the time why she was
    looking at the other island.

    Only late in the evening when I asked what time it was did I notice she was
    blind. She had been using her computer on and off all evening of course,
    writing a paper on something she was studying. When I asked my question she
    pressed Ctrl T or something and her computer told us what time It was. Then
    I walked around behind her and looked closely. She had an earplug concealed
    in her hair. Her computer monitor was not switched on.

    Scary? Yes. I still re-live that entire day, thinking about all the things I
    said or took for granted and more the point the things I did not *see*.

    Now, would I say to her "hey, look, it must have rained, the grass is real
    green today".

    No. I would not. I would say "hey, come here, take your shoe off, the grass
    feels real cool and lush today".

    THAT is what accessibility is all about. No some bloody D thing that some
    *sighted* person has invented!

    Then again I have already given up on you :)

    --
    Cheers
    Richard.
     
    rf, Jul 5, 2004
    #12
  13. Luigi Donatello Asero

    PeterMcC Guest

    Luigi Donatello Asero wrote in
    <GccGc.4296$>

    > "brucie" <> skrev i meddelandet
    > news:16jpyavsv49di$...
    >> in post: <news:ERaGc.4289$>
    >> Luigi Donatello Asero <> said:
    >>
    >>> "If you use color to convey information, make sure the information
    >>> is also represented another way. "
    >>> Should I write in the description which I have added a link to,
    >>> which colour the bed and the other objects in the photo are of?

    >>
    >> is it relevant what color the bed is? is the red bed the bed of
    >> death so you shouldn't sleep in it?
    >>
    >> my mommy says i'm not allowed to play with you anymore
    >>
    >> --
    >> b r u c i e

    >
    > I am trying to make the information of my site accessible also to
    > those who are blind. Now the question is whether we should try to let
    > blind people see all what people who are not blind already see, that
    > means even colours in a picture.


    Is knowing the colour of the bed that they can't see, either in the picture
    or in reality, of any value to someone who is blind? I'm in no position to
    answer that with any authority but my intial thought would be that it isn't.
    In fact, you may be doing a disservice to blind visitors by cluttering the
    information with unnecessary facts to the extent that the valuable
    information is lost in the noise.

    --
    PeterMcC
    If you feel that any of the above is incorrect,
    inappropriate or offensive in any way,
    please ignore it and accept my apologies.
     
    PeterMcC, Jul 5, 2004
    #13
  14. "rf" <> skrev i meddelandet
    news:nLcGc.79733$...
    > Luigi Donatello Asero wrote
    >
    > > I am trying to make the information of my site accessible also to those

    > who
    > > are blind. Now the question is whether we should try to let blind people

    > see
    > > all what people who are not blind already see, that means even colours

    in
    > a
    > > picture.

    >
    > You are kidding, right? "let blind people see"? How bloody arrogant!
    >
    > <assuming a person has been blind forever> How the bloody hell would they
    > understand colour? Do you, a person without the sense of furble,

    understand
    > woggel?
    >
    > <assuming a person has been rendered blind at some time in their life,

    after
    > having been sighted> How would you feel if a web site pointed out your
    > blindness by specifically aiming a "this is a RED thing" at you, as if to
    > say "hey, you remember when you could see and you could see red things

    well
    > here is a red thing"?
    >
    >
    >
    > I once met a person who lost her sight at around age 30. She was 35 when I
    > met her. I did not at first notice that she was blind, nor did I notice

    for
    > a whole day. She knew where *everything* was in her house. We even went on

    a
    > drive with her husband (my business associate). She pointed out the nice
    > islands just off the coast of New Zealand, Palmeston North IIRC. She
    > "remembered" them and described them to me in detail, even to the fact

    that
    > there are often a few container ships waiting near the one on the left.

    She
    > even said "Can you see the container ships out there waiting to come into
    > port :)". Yes, I did see them. I wondered briefly at the time why she was
    > looking at the other island.
    >
    > Only late in the evening when I asked what time it was did I notice she

    was
    > blind. She had been using her computer on and off all evening of course,
    > writing a paper on something she was studying. When I asked my question

    she
    > pressed Ctrl T or something and her computer told us what time It was.

    Then
    > I walked around behind her and looked closely. She had an earplug

    concealed
    > in her hair. Her computer monitor was not switched on.
    >
    > Scary? Yes. I still re-live that entire day, thinking about all the things

    I
    > said or took for granted and more the point the things I did not *see*.
    >
    > Now, would I say to her "hey, look, it must have rained, the grass is real
    > green today".
    >
    > No. I would not. I would say "hey, come here, take your shoe off, the

    grass
    > feels real cool and lush today".
    >
    > THAT is what accessibility is all about. No some bloody D thing that some
    > *sighted* person has invented!
    >
    > Then again I have already given up on you :)
    >
    > --
    > Cheers
    > Richard.


    I am not blind so I cannot know how a blind person feels but:
    1) I have happened to read about things and animals for examples which I had
    never seen before. In that case I have associated for example the name by
    which people usually call a certain animal without actually know that is. A
    blind person cannot see a colour but she can connect the word "brown" for
    example to the things which are brown according to the definition which
    people who can see have made. And this seems to be something similar as what
    I do when I read about something which I have not seen before, isn´t it?

    --
    Luigi ( un italiano che vive in Svezia)
    http://www.scaiecat-spa-gigi.com/de/adresse.html
    http://www.scaiecat-spa-gigi.com/de/willkommen.html
     
    Luigi Donatello Asero, Jul 5, 2004
    #14
  15. Luigi Donatello Asero

    Jersey Guest

    Luigi Donatello Asero <> wrote:

    > "rf" <> skrev i meddelandet
    > news:nLcGc.79733$...
    > > Luigi Donatello Asero wrote
    > >
    > > > I am trying to make the information of my site accessible also to
    > > > those who are blind. Now the question is whether we should try to
    > > > let blind people see all what people who are not blind already
    > > > see, that means even colours in a picture.

    > >
    > > You are kidding, right? "let blind people see"? How bloody arrogant!
    > >
    > > <assuming a person has been blind forever> How the bloody hell
    > > would they understand colour? Do you, a person without the sense of
    > > furble, understand woggel?
    > >
    > > <assuming a person has been rendered blind at some time in their
    > > life, after having been sighted> How would you feel if a web site
    > > pointed out your blindness by specifically aiming a "this is a RED
    > > thing" at you, as if to say "hey, you remember when you could see
    > > and you could see red things well here is a red thing"?
    > >
    > >
    > >
    > > I once met a person who lost her sight at around age 30. She was 35
    > > when I met her. I did not at first notice that she was blind, nor
    > > did I notice for a whole day. She knew where *everything* was in
    > > her house. We even went on a drive with her husband (my business
    > > associate). She pointed out the nice islands just off the coast of
    > > New Zealand, Palmeston North IIRC. She "remembered" them and
    > > described them to me in detail, even to the fact that there are
    > > often a few container ships waiting near the one on the left. She
    > > even said "Can you see the container ships out there waiting to
    > > come into port :)". Yes, I did see them. I wondered briefly at the
    > > time why she was looking at the other island.
    > >
    > > Only late in the evening when I asked what time it was did I
    > > notice she was blind. She had been using her computer on and off
    > > all evening of course, writing a paper on something she was
    > > studying. When I asked my question she pressed Ctrl T or something
    > > and her computer told us what time It was. Then I walked around
    > > behind her and looked closely. She had an earplug concealed in her
    > > hair. Her computer monitor was not switched on.
    > >
    > > Scary? Yes. I still re-live that entire day, thinking about all the
    > > things I said or took for granted and more the point the things I
    > > did not *see*.
    > >
    > > Now, would I say to her "hey, look, it must have rained, the grass
    > > is real green today".
    > >
    > > No. I would not. I would say "hey, come here, take your shoe off,
    > > the grass feels real cool and lush today".
    > >
    > > THAT is what accessibility is all about. No some bloody D thing
    > > that some *sighted* person has invented!
    > >
    > > Then again I have already given up on you :)
    > >
    > > --
    > > Cheers
    > > Richard.

    >
    > I am not blind so I cannot know how a blind person feels but:


    My cousin was totally blind before his third birthday, and my Father-In-Law
    is (red/green) color blind, so even though *I* am not blind, I feel I can
    speak to this with at least a bit of authority.

    > 1) I have happened to read about things and animals for examples
    > which I had never seen before. In that case I have associated for
    > example the name by which people usually call a certain animal
    > without actually know that is.


    I'm not sure I understand what you wrote above, but I *think* you may be
    comparing apples and oranges. My cousin can *feel* an animal, and get a
    general sense of how it's put together. Not so, with colors.

    > A blind person cannot see a colour but
    > she can connect the word "brown" for example to the things which are
    > brown according to the definition which people who can see have made.


    Not if she's blind from birth (or from a very early) age she can't. There's
    nothing to "connect" to. There is no way to describe the concept of color
    to a (totally) blind person. I know. I've tried.

    Try it yourself. Close your eyes and imagine the darkness you're "looking
    at" is all you've *ever* seen. Now, define the color brown.

    > And this seems to be something similar as what I do when I read about
    > something which I have not seen before, isn´t it?


    No. Not at all. Though I *do* think your heart's in the right place.

    As an aside? I gave my Father-In-Law one of the old Win98 boxes I had
    laying around, and some cheap Internet access.

    You'd be amazed at the number of websites he can't read due to the
    text/background color schemes some folks use. Even with only(?) red/green
    color blindness, anything other than white-on-black or vice-versa seems
    difficult for him.
     
    Jersey, Jul 5, 2004
    #15
  16. Luigi Donatello Asero

    Webcastmaker Guest

    In article <nLcGc.79733$>,
    says...
    > Now, would I say to her "hey, look, it must have rained, the grass is real
    > green today".


    Why is it rude to point out to a blind person that the grass is
    greener today? 2 musicians I work with on a regular basis are blind.
    One from birth the other because of diabetes. I do not alter my
    conversations because they are blind. I talk to them the same as I
    would talk to anyone. I think doing otherwise is more rude.

    But to each his/her own.

    --
    WebcastMaker
    The easiest and most affordable way to create
    Web casts, or put presentations on the Web.
    www.webentations.com
     
    Webcastmaker, Jul 5, 2004
    #16
  17. Luigi Donatello Asero

    Jersey Guest

    Webcastmaker <> wrote:

    > In article <nLcGc.79733$>,
    > says...


    > > Now, would I say to her "hey, look, it must have rained, the grass
    > > is real green today".

    >
    > Why is it rude to point out to a blind person that the grass is
    > greener today?


    Where is there any mention of rudeness above?

    > 2 musicians I work with on a regular basis are blind.
    > One from birth the other because of diabetes. I do not alter my
    > conversations because they are blind. I talk to them the same as I
    > would talk to anyone.


    Good for you. That is as it should be. Though the person blind from birth
    can have no concept of the word, "greener".

    >I think doing otherwise is more rude.


    Again. Who, other than you, said anything about being rude?

    > But to each his/her own.
     
    Jersey, Jul 5, 2004
    #17
  18. Luigi Donatello Asero

    Arondelle Guest

    Webcastmaker wrote:
    > Why is it rude to point out to a blind person that the grass is
    > greener today? 2 musicians I work with on a regular basis are blind.
    > One from birth the other because of diabetes. I do not alter my
    > conversations because they are blind. I talk to them the same as I
    > would talk to anyone. I think doing otherwise is more rude.


    Regarding the green grass: not rude to do so, but probably pointless.

    I also had a friend in college who was blind from birth. She would get
    very frustrated with people who would not speak to her in the same way
    they spoke to sighted people. She also got very frustrated with a
    fellow blind student who insisted that he was being discriminated
    against when folks had the gall to speak to him normally. Of course,
    this woman had a very low tolerance for stupid people, too. :)

    I never considered the problems of the visually-impaired (apart from
    making sure I have pleasant, high contrast text-to-background color
    combinations) in my website design, but not because I'm heartless and
    uncaring. My site is oriented to graphic arts and to craft items that
    can only be appreciated by sighted persons. A visually-impaired person
    might visit my site, but he or she wouldn't get much out of most it even
    if I did describe the images in minute detail.

    Arondelle
    --
    ===========================================================
    To email me, empty the pond with a net
     
    Arondelle, Jul 5, 2004
    #18
  19. "Jersey" <> skrev i meddelandet
    news:p...
    > Luigi Donatello Asero <> wrote:
    >
    > > 1) I have happened to read about things and animals for examples
    > > which I had never seen before. In that case I have associated for
    > > example the name by which people usually call a certain animal
    > > without actually know that is.

    >
    > I'm not sure I understand what you wrote above, but I *think* you may be
    > comparing apples and oranges. My cousin can *feel* an animal, and get a
    > general sense of how it's put together. Not so, with colors.

    Even if blind people do not know the concept of colours I suppose that they
    may still tell
    someone else that they have heard that something has a certain colour when
    they speak to other people who see it. I suppose that they can learn the
    words even if they do not understand the meaning and convey information to
    others who understand them and want to help them.

    > You'd be amazed at the number of websites he can't read due to the
    > text/background color schemes some folks use. Even with only(?) red/green
    > color blindness, anything other than white-on-black or vice-versa seems
    > difficult for him.

    What do you suggest to make a site colour-friendly for people who suffer
    from color blindness?
    May-be to use a style-sheet which links to a black on white page?
    --
    Luigi ( un italiano che vive in Svezia)
    http://www.scaiecat-spa-gigi.com/sv/faktaomitalien.html
    http://www.scaiecat-spa-gigi.com/it/svezia.html
     
    Luigi Donatello Asero, Jul 5, 2004
    #19
  20. Luigi Donatello Asero

    Andy Dingley Guest

    "Luigi Donatello Asero" <> wrote in message news:<ERaGc.4289$>...

    > Well, one point says
    > "If you use color to convey information, make sure the information is also
    > represented another way. "
    >
    > Should I write in the description which I have added a link to, which
    > colour the bed and the other objects in the photo are of?


    No. You misunderstand the comment.

    The point is not to describe the bed as being red, so that blind users
    now know that it is the colour of a Martian fire engine (whether they
    understand the concept or not). This might be approriate for
    cataloguing Rietveld furniture, where colour is an essential part of
    the shape (I'm clutching at examples here!), but it's unnecessary for
    soft furnishings.

    The reason why colour is relevant to accessibility is that many sites
    colour-code navigation, such that internal menus are red and external
    links are green (or other such things). A person with the very common
    disorder of red-green colour blindness cannot tell these apart, even
    though they may have perfectly bright and sharp vision otherwise. A
    friend of mine plants only blue and yellow flowers in his garden, for
    all the red ones are just "grass coloured" to him.
     
    Andy Dingley, Jul 6, 2004
    #20
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