Symbol Font correct on IE, but gibberish on FireFox

Discussion in 'HTML' started by I.N. Galidakis, Nov 8, 2008.

  1. I.N. Galidakis, Nov 8, 2008
    #1
    1. Advertising

  2. I.N. Galidakis wrote:

    > I thought I should try Mozilla FireFox on my pages to see how they
    > render and found a surprise:


    Good for you.

    > My math Symbol font characters render as gibberish on FireFox, while
    > they render correctly on IE.


    In such situations, it is usually Firefox that gets things right and IE
    misbehaves.

    > Here's an example:
    >
    > http://ioannis.virtualcomposer2000.com/math/Naturals.html


    If you set IE to ignore fonts suggested on web pages, IE will display the
    correctly, e.g. the character Æ (capital letter AE) as Æ and not as an empty
    set symbol, etc. This is not what you want, but it is the correct rendering
    of the document you have created.

    > Does anyone know of any reasonable cure for this?


    Use correct methods for including special characters in HTML, such as entity
    references or UTF-8 encoding. If your document contains a lot of special
    characters, it's probably best to use a Unicode-enabled text editor such as
    BabelPad and UTF-8. See e.g.
    http://www.alanwood.net/unicode/utilities_editors.html

    Note that this approach also lets you use proper quotation marks and
    apostrophes instead of the crude ASCII characters " and ', the correct
    n-ary summation symbol (instead of Greek letter sigma), etc.

    > I am using the
    > Symbol font according to the instructions found here:
    >
    > http://www.tedmontgomery.com/tutorial/SYMBchrc.html


    It's worse than nonsense and bogus, since it appears to "work" when you use
    faulty browsers, just enough to tempt you into using this horrendous
    trickery.

    The late Alan J. Flavell wrote words of wisdom about this issue, too:
    http://www.alanflavell.org.uk/charset/fontface-harmful.html

    --
    Yucca, http://www.cs.tut.fi/~jkorpela/
     
    Jukka K. Korpela, Nov 8, 2008
    #2
    1. Advertising

  3. Ï "Jukka K. Korpela" <> Ýãñáøå óôï ìÞíõìá
    news:OrjRk.90030$
    > I.N. Galidakis wrote:
    >
    >> I thought I should try Mozilla FireFox on my pages to see how they
    >> render and found a surprise:

    >
    > Good for you.
    >
    >> My math Symbol font characters render as gibberish on FireFox, while
    >> they render correctly on IE.

    >
    > In such situations, it is usually Firefox that gets things right and IE
    > misbehaves.
    >
    >> Here's an example:
    >>
    >> http://ioannis.virtualcomposer2000.com/math/Naturals.html

    >
    > If you set IE to ignore fonts suggested on web pages, IE will display the
    > correctly, e.g. the character Æ (capital letter AE) as Æ and not as an empty
    > set symbol, etc. This is not what you want, but it is the correct rendering
    > of the document you have created.
    >
    >> Does anyone know of any reasonable cure for this?

    >
    > Use correct methods for including special characters in HTML, such as entity
    > references or UTF-8 encoding. If your document contains a lot of special
    > characters, it's probably best to use a Unicode-enabled text editor such as
    > BabelPad and UTF-8. See e.g.
    > http://www.alanwood.net/unicode/utilities_editors.html
    >
    > Note that this approach also lets you use proper quotation marks and
    > apostrophes instead of the crude ASCII characters " and ', the correct
    > n-ary summation symbol (instead of Greek letter sigma), etc.
    >
    >> I am using the
    >> Symbol font according to the instructions found here:
    >>
    >> http://www.tedmontgomery.com/tutorial/SYMBchrc.html

    >
    > It's worse than nonsense and bogus, since it appears to "work" when you use
    > faulty browsers, just enough to tempt you into using this horrendous
    > trickery.


    Many thanks for all the illuminating info. I had no idea the issue was so
    convoluted. Unfortuately at this point I cannot convert any of my webpages to
    UTF-8, so I will contend with just putting a warning on my math pages for non-IE
    users.

    > The late Alan J. Flavell wrote words of wisdom about this issue, too:
    > http://www.alanflavell.org.uk/charset/fontface-harmful.html


    When did his status change to "late"? I seem to remember his name on this forum
    a while back.
    --
    I.N. Galidakis
     
    I.N. Galidakis, Nov 9, 2008
    #3
  4. I.N. Galidakis wrote:

    > Unfortuately at this point I cannot convert any of
    > my webpages to UTF-8, so I will contend with just putting a warning
    > on my math pages for non-IE users.


    It's not just non-IE users. Anyone with IE set to ignore font settings on
    web pages (common among people with reduced eyesight), or with additional
    software plugged into IE for converting content to speech or Braille, or
    with a system with Symbol font removed (it's a lousy font really) will see
    the real characters on your page, as opposite to their "fontistic"
    misrepresentations.

    I realize that converting to UTF-8 can be laborious (since you would have to
    replace characters with font declarations into the characters they are meant
    to stand for), but it could in fact be automated, and you could
    alternatively use character references.

    --
    Yucca, http://www.cs.tut.fi/~jkorpela/
     
    Jukka K. Korpela, Nov 10, 2008
    #4
  5. On Mon, 10 Nov 2008 19:07:56 +0200, "Jukka K. Korpela"
    <> wrote:

    >I.N. Galidakis wrote:
    >
    >> Unfortuately at this point I cannot convert any of
    >> my webpages to UTF-8, so I will contend with just putting a warning
    >> on my math pages for non-IE users.

    >
    >It's not just non-IE users. Anyone with IE set to ignore font settings on
    >web pages (common among people with reduced eyesight), or with additional
    >software plugged into IE for converting content to speech or Braille, or
    >with a system with Symbol font removed (it's a lousy font really) will see
    >the real characters on your page, as opposite to their "fontistic"
    >misrepresentations.
    >
    >I realize that converting to UTF-8 can be laborious (since you would have to
    >replace characters with font declarations into the characters they are meant
    >to stand for), but it could in fact be automated, and you could
    >alternatively use character references.



    What he can do is:
    Display your beautifull page in your IE brower then print it to a
    pdf-printer. then upload the resulted pdf file and let a link pointing
    to it.So *everybody* will be able to look at your work and print it if
    needed.
     
    Raymond SCHMIT, Nov 11, 2008
    #5
  6. Ï "Raymond SCHMIT" <> Ýãñáøå óôï ìÞíõìá
    news:
    > On Mon, 10 Nov 2008 19:07:56 +0200, "Jukka K. Korpela"
    > <> wrote:
    >
    >> I.N. Galidakis wrote:
    >>
    >>> Unfortuately at this point I cannot convert any of
    >>> my webpages to UTF-8, so I will contend with just putting a warning
    >>> on my math pages for non-IE users.

    >>
    >> It's not just non-IE users. Anyone with IE set to ignore font settings on
    >> web pages (common among people with reduced eyesight), or with additional
    >> software plugged into IE for converting content to speech or Braille, or
    >> with a system with Symbol font removed (it's a lousy font really) will see
    >> the real characters on your page, as opposite to their "fontistic"
    >> misrepresentations.
    >>
    >> I realize that converting to UTF-8 can be laborious (since you would have to
    >> replace characters with font declarations into the characters they are meant
    >> to stand for), but it could in fact be automated, and you could
    >> alternatively use character references.

    >
    >
    > What he can do is:
    > Display your beautifull page in your IE brower then print it to a
    > pdf-printer. then upload the resulted pdf file and let a link pointing
    > to it.So *everybody* will be able to look at your work and print it if
    > needed.


    Thanks. What I did was to trash all the symbol characters and emulate all
    symbols using regular html in all my math pages.

    Again, thanks to all who responded.
    ---
    I.N. Galidakis
     
    I.N. Galidakis, Nov 11, 2008
    #6
  7. Raymond SCHMIT wrote:

    > Display your beautifull page in your IE brower then print it to a
    > pdf-printer. then upload the resulted pdf file and let a link pointing
    > to it.So *everybody* will be able to look at your work and print it if
    > needed.


    No, PDF format is inherently much less accessible than HTML. It is often
    much slower to open a PDF file, it contains fixed font faces and sizes (as
    opposite to HTML, where font settings can always be overridden by the user)
    and fixed layout, and it may seriously confuse a screen reader (if you don't
    take care when creating it, and most people don't). And if you create a
    simple PDF document the way you describe, you lose all links.

    For some data, such as math documents containing really rare (in fonts)
    characters, a PDF file, if served in addition to an HTML document (and not
    instead of it), may be an improvement.

    --
    Yucca, http://www.cs.tut.fi/~jkorpela/
     
    Jukka K. Korpela, Nov 11, 2008
    #7
  8. On Tue, 11 Nov 2008 18:13:29 +0200, "Jukka K. Korpela"
    <> wrote:

    >Raymond SCHMIT wrote:
    >
    >> Display your beautifull page in your IE brower then print it to a
    >> pdf-printer. then upload the resulted pdf file and let a link pointing
    >> to it.So *everybody* will be able to look at your work and print it if
    >> needed.

    >
    >No, PDF format is inherently much less accessible than HTML. It is often
    >much slower to open a PDF file, it contains fixed font faces and sizes (as
    >opposite to HTML, where font settings can always be overridden by the user)
    >and fixed layout, and it may seriously confuse a screen reader (if you don't
    >take care when creating it, and most people don't). And if you create a
    >simple PDF document the way you describe, you lose all links.
    >
    >For some data, such as math documents containing really rare (in fonts)
    >characters, a PDF file, if served in addition to an HTML document (and not
    >instead of it), may be an improvement.


    Oups ! .... i forgot to mention this.
    The pdf file is an extra for those who want print or view what they
    can't because not surfing with IE.
     
    Raymond SCHMIT, Nov 11, 2008
    #8
  9. I.N. Galidakis

    GTalbot Guest

    I.N. Galidakis,

    1- Conversion to utf-8 can be automated.

    2- Before judging Firefox prematurely, you may want to test it:

    MathML Test Suite
    http://www.w3.org/Math/testsuite/

    MathML Torture Test
    http://www.mozilla.org/projects/mathml/demo/texvsmml.xhtml

    MathML Tester
    http://www.mozilla.org/projects/mathml/demo/tester.html

    MathML project at mozilla.org:
    http://www.mozilla.org/projects/mathml/

    3- I have a test case where Internet Explorer 7 and Internet Explorer
    8 beta 2 can NOT render greek letters with Symbol font while Firefox
    3.0.3, Opera 9.62, Safari 3.1.2, Konqueror 4.1.1, Hv3 TKHTML alpha
    16, Amaya 10.0.1, Seamonkey 2.0a2pre all can:

    http://www.gtalbot.org/BrowserBugsSection/MSIE7Bugs/greek-letters-with-symbol-font.html

    4- PDF is definitely not recommendable for many reasons (mentioned by
    Jukka Korpela).

    Regards, Gérard
    --
    Internet Explorer 7 bugs: 168 bugs so far
    http://www.gtalbot.org/BrowserBugsSection/MSIE7Bugs/
     
    GTalbot, Nov 16, 2008
    #9
    1. Advertising

Want to reply to this thread or ask your own question?

It takes just 2 minutes to sign up (and it's free!). Just click the sign up button to choose a username and then you can ask your own questions on the forum.
Similar Threads
  1. Merennulli
    Replies:
    1
    Views:
    419
    Merennulli
    Feb 22, 2006
  2. Mohammed Mazid
    Replies:
    2
    Views:
    1,972
    Jose Rubio
    Nov 29, 2003
  3. Dan Stromberg
    Replies:
    2
    Views:
    318
    Fredrik Lundh
    Oct 3, 2004
  4. mttc
    Replies:
    2
    Views:
    2,424
    Roedy Green
    Jul 3, 2009
  5. Song Ma
    Replies:
    2
    Views:
    244
    Charles Oliver Nutter
    Jul 20, 2008
Loading...

Share This Page