Table Height definition

Knut Krueger · May 16, 2006

I would like to fix the height of some table cells
The elements with links should have the same size as the jpg file for
the link. The last (filling Element) should be expanded when the cell
with the text gets larger than all the cells with the links.

http://uni-regensburg.konstanze-krueger.de/german/person/index.php
It works with firefox and netscape but not with IE
Ok the code is now a little bit struggled because I tried a lot of
things, but i do not found the difference between IE and nescape.

Or I do not find my mistake -- maybe its any missing tag which works in
netscape but not in IE

<TABLE BORDER CELLPADDING="2">
<TR>
<TD></TD>
<TD ROWSPAN=6> Element with text</TD>
</TR>
<TR>
<TD> Link Element </TD>
</TR>
<TR>
<TD>Link Element</TD>
</TR>
<TR>
<TD>Link Element</TD>
</TR>
<TR>
<TD>Link Element</TD>
</TR>
<TR>
<TD> filling Element</TD>
</TR>
</TABLE>

Regards Knut

Knut Krueger · May 16, 2006

url of the code below http://www.einthal.de/uni/page2.html
How could I get the first left row as samll as the image the second left
row as big as the rest of the text at the right side.
Regards Knut

<HTML>
<HEAD>

<TITLE>Please title this page. (Page 1)</TITLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY>
<TABLE BORDER CELLPADDING="2">
<TR valign="top">
<TD HEIGHT="31"><IMG
SRC="http://einthal.de/uni/clipart/link_left_1.jpg"
WIDTH="366" HEIGHT="31"></TD>
<TD ROWSPAN=2>asfa
<P>
asf
<P>
asf
<P>
asf
<P>
asf
<P>
as
<P>
fa
<P>
sf
<P>
asf
<P>
as
<P>
fas
<P>
fa
<P>
sf
<P>
as
<P>
fas
<P>
fa
<P>
sf</TD>
</TR>
<TR>
<TD height="100%"><IMG
SRC="http://einthal.de/uni/clipart/link_left_empty_no_text.jpg"
WIDTH="366" HEIGHT="100%" ALIGN="Top"></TD>
</TR>
</TABLE>
<P>
</BODY></HTML>

Spartanicus · May 16, 2006

Knut Krueger said:
I would like to fix the height of some table cells

That suggests that you are abusing tables, they should be used for
tabular data, if you do then there should be no need to fix the height.

Knut Krueger · May 17, 2006

Spartanicus said:
That suggests that you are abusing tables, they should be used for
tabular data, if you do then there should be no need to fix the height.
^

Ok back to the internet of the 80th - Text only.

1. Question
Did you ever looked at the source code of any page with pictures for the
links?
2. question do you have any other suggestion for the problem exept tables

further answers from other guys:
do not use frames, do not use Iframes, do not use java if possible do
not use javascript and from you do not use tables ..
conclusion : Text only see above.

Thanks for your help

Jonathan N. Little · May 17, 2006

Knut said:
Ok back to the internet of the 80th - Text only.

1. Question
Did you ever looked at the source code of any page with pictures for the
links?
2. question do you have any other suggestion for the problem exept tables

further answers from other guys:
do not use frames, do not use Iframes, do not use java if possible do
not use javascript and from you do not use tables ..
conclusion : Text only see above.

Thanks for your help

If your have a list of links, put them in a list. Use CSS to style them
if your want a vertical list or horizontal list, but it's still a list.
Have paragraphs, them put them in P elements. If you want them indented
or whatever then use CSS and style accordingly. Save tables for tabular
data and not for placing bits here and there about the viewport. It is
not the 80's you just missed the point.

Spartanicus · May 17, 2006

Knut Krueger said:
Ok back to the internet of the 80th - Text only.

1. Question
Did you ever looked at the source code of any page with pictures for the
links?
2. question do you have any other suggestion for the problem exept tables

You didn't state what the problem was, you just presented some bogus
data along with your perception of a solution. We'd need to know what it
is that you are actually trying to do before we can make meaningful
suggestions.

further answers from other guys:
do not use frames, do not use Iframes, do not use java if possible do
not use javascript and from you do not use tables ..
conclusion : Text only see above.

Unfortunately you seem to have gotten hold of the wrong end of the stick
completely, that needs to change if you are going to learn.

Knut Krueger · May 17, 2006

Hi Jonathan, hi Spartanicus
sorry for the last answer, but you (Spartanicus) lined up in row with
other guys with the words don't do this, but that's not your problem ...

Ok will try to explain the demands:
I would like to build a couple of links at the left hand side, no
problem for me if they are in text mode only, but it is not state of the
art and for a home page with scientific contents not acceptable (it is
not my opinion...)

|--------------------------|
| Headlines |
|__________________________|
| | |
|link | |
|link | |
|link | |
|link | |
|_______ | any type |
| Last | of content |
| cell | |
| | (Data) |
| with | |
|back- | |
|gound | |
|image | |
----------------------------
The pages should look like
http://uni-regensburg.konstanze-krueger.de/

but the contents of the data field is an IFrame

Therefore I am able to give the bottom field with the background image a
long heights and there will appear a second scroll bar if the contents
is bigger than the iframe. Not very good but it works.

So therefore I would like to improve the page.
first problem I am not able to define the background image in a way that
there is either no wall paper effect nor the image is too big or too
small in all browser. I managed the problem with an image but not with
an background image.

So the last cell should expand automatically as big as necessary to fit
the hole page size defined of the content of the data field,
and the link images should meet without space.

It works with width=100% but why does it not work with height=100%

Jonathan, back to your answer. I missed the point, that happens, but do
you have a suitable suggestion for this? for a couple of years everybody
used frames for this, with the common problem: Your browser doesn't not ...

Could you explain me the state of the art, or give me the link for such
explanation. I know google ... but to find the right keywords in a
foreign language is quite difficult and the most links of google with my
commercial home page designers, or complete wrong newsgroup treads...

Thanks Knut

Barbara de Zoete · May 17, 2006

conclusion : Text only see above.

You might want to reconsider that conclusion:

Markup has a reason. When you use meaningful markup, you tell the browser
(or what ever it is that visits your documents) what a document is and
what the content of the document is. You tell the browser, for example:

,------------------------------------------------------------------------.
| message | code |
|==============================|=========================================|
| This is an HTML 4.01 Strict | <!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD |
| of document | HTML 4.01//EN" |
| - in standard compliance mode| "http://www.w3.org/TR/html4/strict.dtd">|
| - in English | <html lang="en">[...]</html> |
| The title of the document is | <title>Document Title</title> |
| The type of content is | <meta http-equiv="Content-Type" |
| | content="text/html; charset=utf-8"> |
| Find the styles at | <link rel="stylesheet" type="text/css" |
| | media="all" href="stylesheet.css"> |
| Start rendering the content | <body> [...] </body> |
| The pages heading, level 1 is| <h1>Pages Heading</h1> |
| These are paragraphs | <p>paragraphs</p> |
| These are other headings, | <h2>...</h2>, <h3>...</h3>, <h4>...</h4>|
| of other levels | |
| This is an unordered list | <ul> |
| | <li>item</li> |
| | <li>item</li> |
| | <li>item</li> |
| | </ul> |
| This is an ordered list | <ol> |
| | <li>item 1</li> |
| | <li>item 2</li> |
| | <li>item 3</li> |
| | </ol> |
| Here is some tabular data | See example code below (1) |
| This is a link | <a href="foo.html">foo</a> |
| This is an image | <img src="bar.png" alt="Description of |
| | bar" title="Isn't this fun"> |
| This is an inline quotation | <q>quotation</q> |
| This is a blocklevel one | <blockquote>Whole paragraph</blockquote>|
| And it's from him | <cite>Quoted party</cite> |
| This is a bit of code | <code><body></code> |
| This is an abbreviation | <abbr title="Hyper Text Markup |
| | Language">HTML</abbr> |
| This has strong emphasis | <strong>emphasis</strong> |
| This bit of inline text is | <span lang="nl">Nederlands</span> |
| in Dutch | |
`------------------------------'-----------------------------------------'
(1)
<table
summary="Two colums with side by side (1)
what message is conveyed to the browser,
(2) using what code">
<caption>caption value</caption>
<colgroup><col id="message"><col id="code"></colgroup>
<thead>
<tr>
<th>message</th><th>code</th>
</tr>
</thead>
<tbody>
<tr>
<td>HTML4.01 Strict</td><td><!DOCTYPE></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td>Standard Compliance</td><td>URL to DTD</td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td>title</td><td><title>...</title></td>
</tr>
</tbody>
</table>

Anyway you get the message.

Using a table because of how it gets rendered in graphical browsers, is
just the same as using <blockquote> to get an indented block of text, or
<q> to get an italic word or phrase, or <h4> to get a block of text that
is a bit bolder and larger than other text bits. It has nothing to do with
markup. Your mind is fixed on how you think certain elements will look in
certain browsers.

Using proper markup, meaningful markup, has nothing what so ever to do
with 'text only'. Forget the looks of elements. You can override any look
into anything you want. Use proper markup first, meaningful markup. Then
style what you have, using CSS.

dorayme · May 17, 2006

Knut Krueger said:
I would like to fix the height of some table cells
The elements with links should have the same size as the jpg file for
the link. The last (filling Element) should be expanded when the cell
with the text gets larger than all the cells with the links.

http://uni-regensburg.konstanze-krueger.de/german/person/index.php
It works with firefox and netscape but not with IE
Ok the code is now a little bit struggled because I tried a lot of
things, but i do not found the difference between IE and nescape.

Or I do not find my mistake -- maybe its any missing tag which works in
netscape but not in IE

<TABLE BORDER CELLPADDING="2">

It is hard to know quite what you are asking? What happens is
this: those who could pinpoint a specific technical solution to a
specific question will be unable to.

On top of this, they would be highly unlikely to risk showing if
what you are trying to do is not good practice. And you are
certainly a sitting duck on this one.

You will therefore get general advice which you will not have any
background to understand properly. It will look like preaching.
And all sorts of emotional terms will be used like "abusing
tables" (which in fact is code for a reasonably developed and
coherent idea in spite of it being a particularly silly
expression and quite often used idiotically anyway)

The beginning of your scrap of code does not inspire confidence:
what do you mean <TABLE BORDER CELLPADDING="2">? What about the
border? Don't answer this!

Your code and the source code of the link you give is full of
simple mistakes that you would be alerted to if you used a
validator. You do need to do what you can first. And then, try to
cut your problem down to the bare essentials to exhibit the
problem you are experiencing.

You need a basic tute on HTML and CSS. Why not start at
http://locusmeus.com/html-css/list.html for some nice links.

You see. How nice some of us can be. I'm the nicest around here.
And then there are others. Spartanicus (God) is a tricky
customer. Not for you, lamikin, yet... [a lamikin is an an
innocent lamb...]

Knut Krueger · May 17, 2006

dorayme schrieb:

Hi dorayme

The beginning of your scrap of code does not inspire confidence:
what do you mean <TABLE BORDER CELLPADDING="2">? What about the
border? Don't answer this!

I do answer ... this is the code from an insert table button and
normally I am changing it to border=?!? and wondered about the curios
code a lot of times ..

Your code and the source code of the link you give is full of
simple mistakes

why ... there is not time and no money for creating perfect pages
but seems that is a common problem. Normally they should present
information, but an implemented information about the scientific quality
of the owner is the layout of the site. The quality of layout not the
quality of the code. I have not time to learn all things in live.
Believe me I only try to fix some problems here. American Universities
have guys for layout, specialized statistician and for a lot of things
where we could dream about here. And I would read all recommended
manuals ...
And its not my job its my spare time.
But this is another thing but ..
Therefore I used the try and error method ... :-(

And then, try to

cut your problem down to the bare essentials to exhibit the
problem you are experiencing.

I tried it to cut it down in the second post

You need a basic tute on HTML and CSS. Why not start at
http://locusmeus.com/html-css/list.html for some nice links.

I changed the code a lot of times - visited a lot of links ( are you
able to give me a link for this special problem?) and manuals but did
not found any solution that fits. so what else should I do - try an
error - struggle down the code and at least ask in an NG
but you are right the first post was unreadable and unclear.

You see. How nice some of us can be.

yes the first NG without a flame for not using a real name .... Mike
Black may be as real as dorayme but then the most NGs are satisfied

Regards Knut

Barbara de Zoete · May 17, 2006

I have not time to learn all things in live.
Believe me I only try to fix some problems here.

By asking the participants of this newsgroup to put some effort in your
problem, or rather in solving your problem, you could save some time. But:

(1) You chose a group on Hyper Text Markup Language. Therefore the
responses so far are focused on (proper use of) HTML. If this is not the
input you're looking for, you might be better off trying to get some
feedback in alt.www.webmaster. There is a more pragmatic attitude towards
publishing on the web over there.
(2) If your code has errors, it is unlikely that you're going to get very
direct help. How are the participants in this or, or how are you to know
that it is not the errors that are the cause of any unwanted effect.
(3) Usenet newsgroups are not helpdesks. If you ask a question,
participants in this group are going to discuss it. It might be you aks
the wrong question (yes, there is something like asking the wrong
question), because you create a problem rather than have one. Much like
using inproper markup because the way it looks in some graphical browsers.
In that case, people will point to you that there shouldn't be any
problem, had you not created it yourself in the first place.

Fixing true problems with help (and efford and time) of others is fine.
Just don't present problems that shouldn't occur. And don't present code
with errors in a group that is all about markup.

Now, as to what you want to achieve: I have a page up that could be a bit
like what you want. The content is in Dutch, but the markup and styles are
not of course

See if you can find something of your interest in that
page:
<URL:http://www.pretletters.net/voorbeelden/voorbeeld_menu-met-hovereffect.html>

It is an example and it's not whithout some presentational problems (like
the fact that the lower box in the left side slides underneath the upper
box with the menu if the viewport is resized to a certain height). It's
just to show that you don't always need tables to create certain looks.
Another example is
<URL:http://www.pretletters.net/_test/simulating_tables.html> which works
well in Op8.5 and FF1.5. Haven't seen it recently in IE, but I think I
remember that it even performs well in that browser.

Jonathan N. Little · May 17, 2006

Knut said:
Hi Jonathan, hi Spartanicus
sorry for the last answer, but you (Spartanicus) lined up in row with
other guys with the words don't do this, but that's not your problem ...

Ok will try to explain the demands:
I would like to build a couple of links at the left hand side, no
problem for me if they are in text mode only, but it is not state of the
art and for a home page with scientific contents not acceptable (it is
not my opinion...)

|--------------------------|
| Headlines |
|__________________________|
| | |
|link | |
|link | |
|link | |
|link | |
|_______ | any type |
| Last | of content |
| cell | |
| | (Data) |
| with | |
|back- | |
|gound | |
|image | |
----------------------------

What I see here is *not* tabular data. Headlines is not tabular data and
should not be in a table cell. It is just a section, treat it a such an
put it in a DIV, then you have the option with CSS to place it at the
top of the page, left, right, or whatever.

The links are a list, make it a list. Want it on the left, again so be
it, use CSS to style it so. Not a table. If you decide later to have the
link on the right, if done correctly you can just change the stylesheet
and voile your links are on the right! With tables as layout you MUST
redo the page.

Your example is the improper use of a table as layout. Not relying on
table for layout does not result in a boring plain text site. Many
examples on the web, my own site included.

The pages should look like
http://uni-regensburg.konstanze-krueger.de/

but the contents of the data field is an IFrame

Therefore I am able to give the bottom field with the background image a
long heights and there will appear a second scroll bar if the contents
is bigger than the iframe. Not very good but it works.

So therefore I would like to improve the page.
first problem I am not able to define the background image in a way that
there is either no wall paper effect nor the image is too big or too
small in all browser. I managed the problem with an image but not with
an background image.

So the last cell should expand automatically as big as necessary to fit
the hole page size defined of the content of the data field,
and the link images should meet without space.

It works with width=100% but why does it not work with height=100%

Jonathan, back to your answer. I missed the point, that happens, but do
you have a suitable suggestion for this? for a couple of years everybody
used frames for this, with the common problem: Your browser doesn't not ...

Frames, iframes have a whole host of problems which has been debated to
death in this news group. We now have a better way, server side includes
or server side scripting includes via PHP, Perl, ASP, ColdFusion, on
infinitum...

Could you explain me the state of the art, or give me the link for such
explanation. I know google ... but to find the right keywords in a
foreign language is quite difficult and the most links of google with my
commercial home page designers, or complete wrong newsgroup treads...

My personal dog site which I just upgraded the code and about to move to
its own domain is creative in its layout without abusing tables IMO.

http://www.littleworksstudio.com/Amberlithe

Knut Krueger · May 17, 2006

Jonathan N. Little schrieb:
.....

My personal dog site which I just upgraded the code and about to move to
its own domain is creative in its layout without abusing tables IMO.

http://www.littleworksstudio.com/Amberlithe

Looks good but one more question:
where is the postion instruction of the id="nav" and the id="inner"
located, so that is at the upper right corner?

#nav { float: right; margin: 10px; border: 0; padding: 0; }

Regards Knut

Jonathan N. Little · May 17, 2006

Knut said:
Jonathan N. Little schrieb:
....
Looks good but one more question:
where is the postion instruction of the id="nav" and the id="inner"
located, so that is at the upper right corner?

#nav { float: right; margin: 10px; border: 0; padding: 0; }

the float: right; 'pulls' navbar out of the regular flow of the
document and the margin: 10px; puts the 10px buffer zone that offsets
the navbar down and to the left 10px. If it was margin: 0; the navbar
would be push right up in the upper-right corner, I wanted the space.

The margin also creates the 'breathing room' for the regular page
content so that it does not slam right up to the navbar.

If you go into a section, a submenu appears on the left. It also is not
a table but a list and the 'flyout' is done with CSS styling and not
JavaScript.

The real advantage of all this is how it is all adaptable to different
styling for different devices, with you can see by looking at the page
in 'Print Preview'.

Knut Krueger · May 17, 2006

Jonathan said:
If you go into a section, a submenu appears on the left. It also is not
a table but a list and the 'flyout' is done with CSS styling and not
JavaScript.

Great that's what I was looking for
anything server basesed for implemented tools (like PHP) and the rest
without JavaScript

The real advantage of all this is how it is all adaptable to different
styling for different devices, with you can see by looking at the page
in 'Print Preview'.

It will take a couple of hours to try out and understandthe basic
elements and how it works,
Is this the right group for asking CSS styling or is it only html - as
the name suggests.

Do you recommend any step by step manual page for that stuff?

Regards Knut

Neredbojias · May 18, 2006

To further the education of mankind, "Jonathan N. Little"

My personal dog site which I just upgraded the code and about to move
to its own domain is creative in its layout without abusing tables
IMO.

http://www.littleworksstudio.com/Amberlithe

Very, very nice site. I dug into it a bit, and every page seems cordordant
to and as erudite as the first. And speaking of the opening page, I
particularly like how the text flows around the big chihuahua...

Jonathan N. Little · May 18, 2006

Neredbojias said:
To further the education of mankind, "Jonathan N. Little"

Very, very nice site. I dug into it a bit, and every page seems cordordant

Cordordant? I know what erudite is but you lost me there with
cordordant. I have to keep a dictionary handy with your posts! I'll take
it as a compliment though.

to and as erudite as the first. And speaking of the opening page, I
particularly like how the text flows around the big chihuahua...

Big Chihuahua, I like that! Especially when my youngest all 65 pounds of
2-year-old energized bone, muscle and sinew believes he is a lap dog!

I have much more to do, but wait until I move it to its own domain. Not
happy anyway with FatCow that much at the moment with their present odd
server configuration. I cannot redirect to present a static URL and mask
the queries to the database like I had originally planned.

dorayme · May 18, 2006

Knut Krueger said:
dorayme schrieb:

Hi dorayme
why ... there is not time and no money for creating perfect pages
but seems that is a common problem.

No one is asking you to create perfect pages. Getting the code to
validate is like making sure the ladder has enough strong rungs
to climb it when you plan to clean a house gutter. You can cheat
on all other 'best practice' things like a hat to protect you
from the sun, shades to make you look really cool, music so you
don't get bored stiff and fall off and gloves to keep spiders off
your hands and having someone stand by in case you fall.

I changed the code a lot of times - visited a lot of links ( are you
able to give me a link for this special problem?) and manuals but did
not found any solution that fits. so what else should I do

Honestly, it is important for you to get the basics at least
roughly right before trying to tackle any "special problems".
Best of luck anyway.

Neredbojias · May 18, 2006

To further the education of mankind, "Jonathan N. Little"

Cordordant? I know what erudite is but you lost me there with
cordordant. I have to keep a dictionary handy with your posts! I'll
take it as a compliment though.

Shoulda been "concordant", root meaning like "agreeable". -A typo.

Big Chihuahua, I like that! Especially when my youngest all 65 pounds
of 2-year-old energized bone, muscle and sinew believes he is a lap
dog!

I never heard of an Ibizan dog before. With those ears, they could almost
pass for Australian rabbits.

I have much more to do, but wait until I move it to its own domain.
Not happy anyway with FatCow that much at the moment with their
present odd server configuration. I cannot redirect to present a
static URL and mask the queries to the database like I had originally
planned.

On my server, I can't send formmail "from" anybody but myself! (Probably
because it's one of those servers which do require authorization for
"from" mail.) Not the greatest...

Jonathan N. Little · May 18, 2006

Neredbojias said:
To further the education of mankind, "Jonathan N. Little"
<[email protected]> vouchsafed:

I never heard of an Ibizan dog before. With those ears, they could almost
pass for Australian rabbits.

Not surprising, they are a rare breed, < 100 registered with the AKC
each year. They are basically a rabbit dog, for hunting without a gun
in rocky, hilly, scrubby land of the Belaric Islands off of Spain. Catch
and retrieve prey--many times live. I've got a picture around here
somewhere of one of ours bringing a *live* young wild turkey to the
house. Caused a little pandemonium in the living room!
Everything was fine until they 'upgraded' their servers about 2 years
ago (major expansion?). They now have some strange config where the
static content is handled by one set of servers and dynamic on others.
The result reared its ugly head when my 404 handling script failed.
Redirects cannot be done without a full URL so that a dynamic URL
rewritten to appear as a static URL will not work, the real dynamic one
will always appear in the address bar. Kinda blows with current trends
to interface with a MySQL database! SO I am hosting hunting...

On my server, I can't send formmail "from" anybody but myself! (Probably
because it's one of those servers which do require authorization for
"from" mail.) Not the greatest...

Wow, yeah that sucks. Can you at least set the 'Reply To:' in the header
to the original sender's address?

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Table Height definition

Knut Krueger

Knut Krueger

Spartanicus

Knut Krueger

Jonathan N. Little

Spartanicus

Knut Krueger

Barbara de Zoete

dorayme

Knut Krueger

Barbara de Zoete

Jonathan N. Little

Knut Krueger

Jonathan N. Little

Knut Krueger

Neredbojias

Jonathan N. Little

dorayme

Neredbojias

Jonathan N. Little

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