Table Help

[The Magician]

I've been dong webpages with html editors for a few years now (mainly my own goofy little site), and have pretty much just done them to suit my fancy.
Now I have someone who wants me to do a small site for them.
I don't have too much experience or knowledge of tables, and I am using a dreamweaver template that has them.
I'm not sure if I'm using the right terms and descriptions, but it's a simple 4 page website, and all the templates for each page are the same. You
just customize them the way you want. The problem I'm having, is that the templates come with sample text and a picture. And I like the overall size
of the layout the way it is for each page. When I remove the sample text and picture...the template gets smaller when I save it.
Another way to describe what's happening is when I take out the sample text, etc...and put in my own...the whole frame (table collapses because I'm
putting in less text, etc. I would like to know how you can "lock" the table using Dreamweaver, so that it will stay exactly the size you have it, so
it will only allow just so much text & pictures, etc., and neither collapses or expands despite it's content.
Jeez...I hope that makes sense!
Thanks in advance

 

[David Dorward]

The Magician wrote:

I would like to know how you can "lock" the table using Dreamweaver, so
that it will stay exactly the size you have it, so it will only allow just
so much text & pictures,

Sounds like you have a rather poor template there. Tables are not layout
tools:

http://www.allmyfaqs.com/faq.pl?Tableless_layouts

You should probably also have a read of:

http://www.allmyfaqs.com/faq.pl?AnySizeDesign

 

[The Magician]

The Magician wrote:



Sounds like you have a rather poor template there. Tables are not layout
tools:

http://www.allmyfaqs.com/faq.pl?Tableless_layouts

You should probably also have a read of:

http://www.allmyfaqs.com/faq.pl?AnySizeDesign

Thanks for your quick response David, but I went to those links, and basically...it may have well been in Chinese.
It's a bit deep for me.
As far as the template...I dunno if it's good, bad or indifferent...but it's what I started creating the site with.
Basically...in real simple terms...is there a way to keep each of the "box's height"...the same exact size on every page?
No matter if you remove or add text...?
Here's a link to a sample page from the site I'm messing with. I would like to keep everything exactly like you see it, on everypage except the
homepage. That's slightly different due to the large banner I've created.

http://www.themagician8.com/Serenity/index4.htm

If you hit any top button except for the Home button... all the page/table/frame whatever it's all called...is the same size in height.
I'd like to keep it hat way because the contents of each page will be very minimal, and it makes for a neat & uniform look.
If not...one page would be long, the other shorter, the other shorter sttill due to the content.
I'd like them all...in a laymen's kinda terms..."the same 10x12 inch box".
I'd like that inner blue content box to stay the same height even if it had no text.
(if you notice...it still has the sample text inside each...I haven't added the content yet.)
I've even tried setting a height for that table (it only lists a width in Dreamweaver), and figured maybe if I did that...it would stay a fixed
height...but after removing the text and saving it...the height shrunk again.
If what is needed is a CSS, can I make one from the pages that I've already setup?
How do I go about that?
I had tried selecting everything and saving it as a .css file, which it did...but nothing happened to the page or changed when I tried to delete the
sample text...I resaved the html page, and the table height shrunk due to no text.
Again...I hope that makes sense.
Thanks again David.

 

[David Dorward]

Thanks for your quick response David, but I went to those links, and
basically...it may have well been in Chinese. It's a bit deep for me.
As far as the template...I dunno if it's good, bad or indifferent...but
it's what I started creating the site with. Basically...in real simple
terms...is there a way to keep each of the "box's height"...the same exact
size on every page?

Well, you can specify a height with the CSS height property, but then you
need to use the overflow property to specify what to do when there isn't
room in the box for the text. The only sensible option is to add
scrollbars, and that's a terrible design. Users with nice large windows
like not having to scroll as much, giving them a tiny box will annoy many
of them.

To complicate matters, overflow doesn't play nicely with table data cells,
so if you continue abusing tables in the fashion you have to jump through
more hoops too add meaningless extra markup to set the height and overflow
on.

http://www.themagician8.com/Serenity/index4.htm
http://validator.w3.org/check?verbose=1&uri=http://www.themagician8.com/Serenity/index4.htm

If what is needed is a CSS, can I make one from the pages that I've
already setup? How do I go about that?

http://css.nu/pointers/index.html#Tutorials

 

[The Magician]

Well, you can specify a height with the CSS height property, but then you
need to use the overflow property to specify what to do when there isn't
room in the box for the text. The only sensible option is to add
scrollbars, and that's a terrible design. Users with nice large windows
like not having to scroll as much, giving them a tiny box will annoy many
of them.

To complicate matters, overflow doesn't play nicely with table data cells,
so if you continue abusing tables in the fashion you have to jump through
more hoops too add meaningless extra markup to set the height and overflow
on.


http://css.nu/pointers/index.html#Tutorials

Hmmm...oh well, guess it'll have to stay as is. But that HTML validator thingy said something about not being some kind of "doc type".
How do I fix that in Dreamweaver?
Again...even though I've had a website of my own up for a few years...your really dealing with a novice here.
None of the stuff on the validator made any sense to me really, except for I get a sense that the webpage needed some kind of html "dogtag" stating
it's a "regulation webpage that's had it's shots" or something similar to that. Yet I view it fine in my IE6 browser.
So what's the big deal...? It won't be viewable in a browser like...Mozilla or something?
Trust me...the target audience won' be using Mozilla, etc.
I'm not really a code geek, and I use an html editor. But since that page was a downloaded prefab, webpage template...
how would I go about adding the tags needed to make the pages "on the up & up"...?
Thanks again David. I do appreciate your help.

 

[Adrienne]

Gazing into my crystal ball I observed The Magician

Hmmm...oh well, guess it'll have to stay as is. But that HTML validator
thingy said something about not being some kind of "doc type". How do I
fix that in Dreamweaver?

Go into Code View (or whatever it's called) and add a DocType declaration.

None of the stuff on the validator made any sense to me really, except for I
get a sense that the webpage needed some kind of html "dogtag" stating
it's a "regulation webpage that's had it's shots" or something similar
to that.

No, validation is not the beat all to end all, it's a tool to help you in
your authoring. If some element is misbehaving, validating the page will
often show the culprit, an example is a floating DIV that's not floating
because the prior div is not closed.

Yet I view it fine in my IE6 browser. So what's the big

deal...? It won't be viewable in a browser like...Mozilla or something?

IE is not the only browser available. Who knows, maybe at the last minute,
MS will make IE7 more like its younger siblings (I doubt it), and then it
won't show correctly in IE7 either.

Trust me...the target audience won' be using Mozilla, etc.

Firefox is gaining on IE rapidly, mostly because of security issues, and
because IE just doesn't do some of the things the younger browsers do, like
tabbed browsing.

I'm not really a code geek, and I use an html editor. But since that
page was a downloaded prefab, webpage template... how would I go about
adding the tags needed to make the pages "on the up & up"...?

You need to start fixing the errors the validator points out one by one.
Then, when it is no longer throwing errors, start working on the template.

Thanks

 

[The Magician]

Gazing into my crystal ball I observed The Magician


Go into Code View (or whatever it's called) and add a DocType declaration.



No, validation is not the beat all to end all, it's a tool to help you in
your authoring. If some element is misbehaving, validating the page will
often show the culprit, an example is a floating DIV that's not floating
because the prior div is not closed.

Yet I view it fine in my IE6 browser. So what's the big

IE is not the only browser available. Who knows, maybe at the last minute,
MS will make IE7 more like its younger siblings (I doubt it), and then it
won't show correctly in IE7 either.


Firefox is gaining on IE rapidly, mostly because of security issues, and
because IE just doesn't do some of the things the younger browsers do, like
tabbed browsing.


You need to start fixing the errors the validator points out one by one.
Then, when it is no longer throwing errors, start working on the template.

Thanks

Thanks Adrienne.
But my problem is...I went on that validator page, looked up the different types of "doctype declarations", and couldn't figure out which one fit.
I dunno html 2.0 from 3.2 or 4.01...or xtml, or sooperdooper html, etc., etc., etc... LOL!
So...couldn't figure out which tag to copy & paste.
So you kinda see what type of novice I am.

 

[David Dorward]

But my problem is...I went on that validator page, looked up the different
types of "doctype declarations", and couldn't figure out which one fit. I
dunno html 2.0 from 3.2 or 4.01...or xtml, or sooperdooper html, etc.,
etc., etc... LOL! So...couldn't figure out which tag to copy & paste. So
you kinda see what type of novice I am.

I seem to recall some mention of the W3C QA group thinking about producing a
"Which markup language should I use?" document that should help people in
your position in the future.

That doesn't do you much good in the here and now though, so in brief:

Generally speaking, documents authored today should be written in HTML 4.01
Strict.

Earlier versions of HTML, along with the Transitional and Frameset variants
of HTML 4.01 contain junk that really shouldn't be used (with the sole
exception of the start attribute for <ol>, but that comes up very
infrequently).

XHTML provides no practical benefits to the majority and introduces a number
of problems (mainly down to user agent support, which is minimal).

 

[Adrienne]

Gazing into my crystal ball I observed The Magician

Thanks Adrienne.
But my problem is...I went on that validator page, looked up the
different types of "doctype declarations", and couldn't figure out
which one fit. I dunno html 2.0 from 3.2 or 4.01...or xtml, or
sooperdooper html, etc., etc., etc... LOL! So...couldn't figure out
which tag to copy & paste. So you kinda see what type of novice I am.

In a nutshell:
4.01 the latest specification (not a working draft)
Strict - no deprecated elements or attributes, eg. no <b> or <div
align="center">; use CSS.
Transitional - has deprecated elements and attributes
Frameset - for frameset documents; this is for the frame document only,
subpages still have to use either Strict or Transitional.

For new pages, you should use Strict and remove all presentation to CSS.
I know that may seem difficult now, but in the future, instead of having
to change <body bgcolor="#ffffff"> to <body bgcolor="FFDEAD"> in all
pages (maybe hundreds), _one_ change can be made in _one_ external CSS
document.

You really need to do some good HTML and CSS tutorials. I'm sure someone
will jump in now with a good list.

 

[The Magician]

I seem to recall some mention of the W3C QA group thinking about producing a
"Which markup language should I use?" document that should help people in
your position in the future.

That doesn't do you much good in the here and now though, so in brief:

Generally speaking, documents authored today should be written in HTML 4.01
Strict.

Earlier versions of HTML, along with the Transitional and Frameset variants
of HTML 4.01 contain junk that really shouldn't be used (with the sole
exception of the start attribute for <ol>, but that comes up very
infrequently).

XHTML provides no practical benefits to the majority and introduces a number
of problems (mainly down to user agent support, which is minimal).

Not trying to sound insulting...but...that all sounded like "blah, blah, blah, blah, blah..." to me.
(my fault...not yours.)
Just that sometimes you ask a computer expert a simple question and some kinda give you more information than you can process as a newbie.

Earlier versions of HTML, along with the Transitional and Frameset variants
of HTML 4.01 contain junk that really shouldn't be used (with the sole
exception of the start attribute for <ol>, but that comes up very
infrequently).

"Transitional...frameset variants... HTML 4.01"...???
(again...not criticizing YOU... just dat *I* don't know what your saying.)
I use Dreamweaver. (which is kinda over my head...but I somehow manage.)
I probably should be using something much simpler.
So it's kinda like being an office worker, who just wants to know how to open his email in Outlook Express...
not understand all of the the coding behind it, or about all of the coding behind Windows XP, and all of it's idiosyncrasies...

I really don't get all the new fangled web code stuff. (never really understood the old stuff either. LOL)
But in sort of my own analogy, it would seem to me that someone once invented a language...for sake of my own understanding...let's call it Chinese.
And they said "to understand it...you need to use this thing called a browser"
Then they made other browsers. And then other newer browsers...
And then they made Chinese v. 2.0, then Chinese version 4.01, then XChinese, then Chinese with CSS chopsticks, and so on & so forth.
And then the "experts" in Chinese said "All in the land should now only talk in XChinese with CSS chopsticks, because some new browsers may not
tranlate anything else!"


Seems to me...the page I did doesn't seem to be in any form of "New Chinese with special CSS chopsticks"...
Shouldn't ALL browsers understand and recognize older types of html without all sorts of fancy tags, etc.?
Even without the "Doctype Declaration", etc., etc., etc,...?
Like I said...it seems fine on my end. And again...TRUST me...the target audience are a club of recovering drug addicts and alcoholics like myself,
and will be a very small audience. So I seriously DOUBT that any of them will be using Mozilla, or Firefox, or Netscape, or Opera...
most will be lucky enuff to be computer literate, and will have IE5 or 6 on their machines...if they even have a machine to view it with.
They just won't have that kinda net savvy...yanno...?
(I just reread what I've just wrote...and it may sound angry or insulting at first. Trust me, it's not...and not meant to be.)
I just don't get it. And I'm just trying to understand it all in clear, simple, newbie terms.

 

[David Dorward]

Not trying to sound insulting...but...that all sounded like "blah, blah,
blah, blah, blah..." to me.

It was entirely jargon free, except for the names of the different versions
of HTML ... which you need to look up the appropriate material on the page
you said gave you a lot of choices but no help in making them.

http://www.w3.org/QA/2002/04/valid-dtd-list.html

Shouldn't ALL browsers understand and recognize older types of html
without all sorts of fancy tags, etc.?

Older versions of HTML generally don't have features that you will find very
useful, or have long winded and hard to maintain methods of achieving
various effects. In most cases its both.

Even without the "Doctype Declaration", etc., etc., etc,...?

The Doctype Declaration states which standard you are following. Following a
standard is the most basic level of quality assurance. Quality assurance is
good, it saves you from problems both now and further down the road.

They just won't have that kinda net savvy...yanno...?

You don't need net savvy to use a browser other then Internet Explorer
(although John Smith is more likely to use such a browser if he has, or has
a friend or family member with same).

 

[dorayme]

The problem I'm having, is that the
templates come with sample text and a picture. And I like the overall size
of the layout the way it is for each page. When I remove the sample text and
picture...the template gets smaller when I save it.

Add more text and pictures. This is easy to do and won't give you html and
css technical difficulties. Become a master of being able get any site into
this exact template without raising any eyebrows. Say things more long
windedly if not enough text. Add clever redundant sentences. For pictures,
resize down or add borders to make up. If there aren't enough pics, make
some (you can always make pics consisting of text that would be somehow
relevant to the site in question). If there are too many pics supplied, no
worries. Just make more pages and do the things advised above...

dorayme

Which reminds me of the beggar who approached a Mrs Rosenberg. "Hey, lady! I
haven't eaten for days!" Mrs Rosenberg looks at him coldly and says: "So
force yourself!"

 

[The Magician]

Add more text and pictures. This is easy to do and won't give you html and
css technical difficulties. Become a master of being able get any site into
this exact template without raising any eyebrows. Say things more long
windedly if not enough text. Add clever redundant sentences. For pictures,
resize down or add borders to make up. If there aren't enough pics, make
some (you can always make pics consisting of text that would be somehow
relevant to the site in question). If there are too many pics supplied, no
worries. Just make more pages and do the things advised above...

dorayme

Which reminds me of the beggar who approached a Mrs Rosenberg. "Hey, lady! I
haven't eaten for days!" Mrs Rosenberg looks at him coldly and says: "So
force yourself!"

Do you pay a writer for dem dere jokes...or ya write 'em yerself...?
Don't quit yer day job.
LOL!

 

[Mark Parnell]

You really need to do some good HTML and CSS tutorials. I'm sure someone
will jump in now with a good list.

http://htmldog.com/ is a good place to start - mixes the teaching of
HTML and CSS in together nicely.

Beyond that, here's the CSS list; I don't have the HTML one.

css tutorials and other fun 'n giggly css stuff:
http://www.css.nu/
http://www.mako4css.com/
http://www.richinstyle.com/
http://www.hotdesign.com/seybold/
http://www.blazonry.com/css/
http://www.w3schools.com/css/
http://www.websitetips.com/css/
http://www.htmlhelp.com/reference/css/
http://www.pageresource.com/dhtml/indexcss.htm
http://www.climbtothestars.org/coding/cssbasic/
http://www.htmlcenter.com/tutorials/index.cfm/css/
http://www.freewebmastertips.com/php/content.php3?aid=48
http://www.canit.se/~griffon/web/writing_stylesheets.html
http://www.utoronto.ca/ian/books/xhtml2/exerpt/css-4a.html
http://idm.internet.com/articles/200101/csstutorial1a.html
http://www.greytower.net/en/archive/articles/tsutsumi.html
http://www.westciv.com.au/style_master/academy/css_tutorial/
http://webmonkey.com/authoring/stylesheets/tutorials/tutorial1.html

layout examples:
http://www.glish.com/css/
http://www.csszengarden.com/
http://www.wannabegirl.org/css/
http://tantek.com/CSS/Examples/
http://www.saila.com/usage/layouts/
http://www.bluerobot.com/web/layouts/
http://www.benmeadowcroft.com/webdev/
http://www.xs4all.nl/~apple77/columns/
http://www.meyerweb.com/eric/css/edge/
http://www.htmler.org/tutorials/3/1.html
http://css.nu/articles/floating-boxes.html
http://webhost.bridgew.edu/etribou/layouts/
http://www.roguelibrarian.com/lj/index.html
http://css-discuss.incutio.com/?page=CssLayouts
http://ecoculture.com/styleguide/r/rollovers.html
http://thenoodleincident.com/tutorials/box_lesson/index.html
http://www.webreference.com/authoring/style/sheets/layout/advanced/

rounded corners:
http://www.albin.net/CSS/roundedCorners/
http://www.webweaver.org/dan/css/corners/
http://www.guyfisher.com/builder/workshop/css/corners/

slants: http://www.infimum.dk/HTML/slantinfo.html
centring: http://stone.thecoreworlds.net/www/centre/
lists: http://www.alistapart.com/stories/taminglists/
pure css menus: http://www.meyerweb.com/eric/css/edge/menus/demo.html

master compatibility charts:
http://www.xs4all.nl/~ppk/css2tests/intro.html
http://www.blooberry.com/indexdot/css/index.html
http://macedition.com/cb/resources/abridgedcsssupport.html
old:
http://www.immix.net/html/CSSGuide.htm
http://devedge.netscape.com/library/xref/2003/css-support/

hiding CSS from crappy browsers:
http://centricle.com/ref/css/filters/
http://www.ericmeyeroncss.com/bonus/trick-hide.html
http://www.w3development.de/css/hide_css_from_browsers/

css checkers:
http://jigsaw.w3.org/css-validator/
http://www.htmlhelp.com/tools/csscheck/

cascading style sheets, level 1 specification
http://www.w3.org/TR/REC-CSS1.html
cascading style sheets, level 2 specification
http://www.w3.org/tr/rec-css2/cover.html
cascading style sheets, level 2 revision 1 working draft
http://www.w3.org/TR/2002/WD-CSS21-20020802/

(thanks brucie - we miss you)

 

[The Magician]

Thanks guys!!!! Thanks a bunch MARK!

 

[dorayme]

Do you pay a writer for dem dere jokes...or ya write 'em yerself...?
Don't quit yer day job.
LOL!

Seriously, you would expect things to be rather different if you take away
the pictures. A design that had various things in various places is simply
going to look different when those things are not going to be there. So you
need to ask yourself: what is it about the template that you like? This is
the same question as asking yourself what is invariant about it that you
like? Sure it was a joke, but it was meant to make you think a bit. I don't
joke lightly for fun, believe me. That *is* my day job. Its a small club, I
don't get paid much, but hey, its hard to get work here and I don't have to
take my clothes off... (ok... what about the quality of the Jewish joke?
That's not mine, But admit it, go on, it is good huh?)

dorayme

(OK I feel guilty now. Table cells grow according to the content. If you
*must* have a certain size and look and want to use tables, the best is to
make content. It is not something that is not done at all in web design.
Anyway, mark parnell has given you an excellent set of links to get busy
with. Best of luck)

 

[The Magician]

Seriously, you would expect things to be rather different if you take away
the pictures. A design that had various things in various places is simply
going to look different when those things are not going to be there. So you
need to ask yourself: what is it about the template that you like? This is
the same question as asking yourself what is invariant about it that you
like? Sure it was a joke, but it was meant to make you think a bit. I don't
joke lightly for fun, believe me. That *is* my day job. Its a small club, I
don't get paid much, but hey, its hard to get work here and I don't have to
take my clothes off... (ok... what about the quality of the Jewish joke?
That's not mine, But admit it, go on, it is good huh?)

dorayme

(OK I feel guilty now. Table cells grow according to the content. If you
*must* have a certain size and look and want to use tables, the best is to
make content. It is not something that is not done at all in web design.
Anyway, mark parnell has given you an excellent set of links to get busy
with. Best of luck)

Why do I feel as thought I've just read 2 paragraphs worth of fast doubletalk...
Reading your posts are like listening to Goldie Hawn back in her heyday.
Seriously tho...I'm not as concerned so much with the table cells growing...as I am with them shrinking.
The links page is only going to have like 4 links on it. Therefore it will shrink to like 3 inches high.
(sorry...dunno wut dat is in pixel height)
Amnd the Mission Statement page will probably be longer, while the contacts page...again...will only have an address, and maybe 2-4 email links...so
that page will shrink. My goal...if at all possible (which seems like it aint gonna happen)...is to keep all the pages uniformly sized, despite it's
content. I could add some gifs, pix, and mexican jumping beans...but that would make it look tacky.
(don't get me wrong...I LOVE me some tacky... just not on this site.)

Nevermind the Jewish joke...did ya hear the one about the Buddist who asked the hotdog stand guy...
"Make me one with everything..."

("bidda-bump-bump...tssssssss!")

 

[dorayme]

I'm not as concerned so much with the table cells growing...as
I am with them shrinking.

Yes, I got this much. The point about cells growing to accommodate content
is a comment on how they work by default. The best thing to do is to
understand more html and css and so be equipped to be flexible. I've clean
forgotten if you ever posted the template you like and the material that you
want to be in it. But if the template you have is something you understand
and like and want, then there might be ways of working with it and there may
be short term advantages for you. Anyway, best of luck...

Nevermind the Jewish joke...did ya hear the one about the Buddist

Yes.

dorayme