Tables: Fixing the column widths absolutely ?

Discussion in 'HTML' started by Alan Searle, Oct 17, 2007.

  1. Alan Searle

    Alan Searle Guest

    Hi everyone,

    I have a table which, in order to line up with other information, needs
    to have very exact column widths.

    So far I have implemented the following with normal HTML tables ...

    <td align="RIGHT" width="77">

    .... which works OK most of the time.

    However, sometimes the data contained in the table overshoots the column
    width and the table starts to 'distort' which completely messes up my
    presentation.

    Maybe someone has a suggestion for setting the column widths exactly?
    Here I am wondering if there is a relationship with the declared table
    width? Or whether there is a setting that can be switched on or off to
    force exact width?

    Many thanks for any tips you can give me.

    Regards,
    Alan Searle
     
    Alan Searle, Oct 17, 2007
    #1
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  2. Alan Searle

    Bergamot Guest

    Alan Searle wrote:
    >
    > I have a table which, in order to line up with other information, needs
    > to have very exact column widths.


    Sounds like a design flaw. Post a URL.

    --
    Berg
     
    Bergamot, Oct 17, 2007
    #2
    1. Advertising

  3. Alan Searle

    Neredbojias Guest

    Well bust mah britches and call me cheeky, on Wed, 17 Oct 2007 12:47:41 GMT
    Alan Searle scribed:

    > Hi everyone,
    >
    > I have a table which, in order to line up with other information, needs
    > to have very exact column widths.
    >
    > So far I have implemented the following with normal HTML tables ...
    >
    > <td align="RIGHT" width="77">
    >
    > ... which works OK most of the time.
    >
    > However, sometimes the data contained in the table overshoots the column
    > width and the table starts to 'distort' which completely messes up my
    > presentation.
    >
    > Maybe someone has a suggestion for setting the column widths exactly?
    > Here I am wondering if there is a relationship with the declared table
    > width? Or whether there is a setting that can be switched on or off to
    > force exact width?
    >
    > Many thanks for any tips you can give me.


    From my experience, table cells will always expand to content - at least in
    some browsers - no matter if the css attribute table-layout:fixed; is set
    or not.

    One thing you can try is a div (inside the cell) set to the appropriate
    width and overflow:hidden;

    --
    Neredbojias
    Half lies are worth twice as much as whole lies.
     
    Neredbojias, Oct 17, 2007
    #3
  4. Alan Searle

    Alan Searle Guest

    Bergamot wrote:
    > Alan Searle wrote:
    >> I have a table which, in order to line up with other information, needs
    >> to have very exact column widths.

    >
    > Sounds like a design flaw. Post a URL.


    I've reduced my HTML right down to the bare bones to illustrate my
    problem. What tends to happen is that, if there are spaces, then the
    cell retains its correct size but as soon as longer text appears, the
    column-sizing goes haywire.

    I've posted a simple example below where I would like column 02 to keep
    the declared width of 66.

    Any ideas here?

    I'll try experimenting with Neredbojias suggestions (next posting) and
    will report back.

    Regards and thanks,
    Alan Searle

    <html>
    <head>
    </head>
    <body>
    <table width="198">
    <tr bgcolor="#dddddd" VALIGN="TOP">
    <td align="LEFT" width="66">Col01</td>
    <td align="LEFT" width="66">Col02</td>
    <td align="LEFT" width="66">Col03</td>
    </tr>
    <tr>
    <td align="LEFT" width="66">aaa</td>
    <td align="LEFT" width="66">the_rain_in_spain_stays_mainly</td>
    <td align="LEFT" width="66">ccc</td>
    </tr>
    </table>
    </html>
    </body>
     
    Alan Searle, Oct 18, 2007
    #4
  5. Alan Searle

    Bergamot Guest

    Alan Searle wrote:
    > Bergamot wrote:
    >> Alan Searle wrote:
    >>> I have a table which, in order to line up with other information, needs
    >>> to have very exact column widths.

    >>
    >> Sounds like a design flaw. Post a URL.

    >
    > I've reduced my HTML right down to the bare bones to illustrate my
    > problem.


    [snip code]

    Post a URL. If you won't make the effort to make a publicly accessible
    web page, why should we make any effort to help you? There are lots of
    free places to post test pages so there is no excuse for not having one.

    And put the problem in context, not some bogus Lorem ipsum stuff. If we
    see the whole picture, we may offer different ways to acheive your goal
    that you might not have considered. IOW, you may be trying to fix the
    wrong problem by deciding on a solution (exact column widths) before
    fully understanding the issues.

    --
    Berg
     
    Bergamot, Oct 18, 2007
    #5
  6. Alan Searle wrote:
    > Bergamot wrote:
    >> Alan Searle wrote:
    >>> I have a table which, in order to line up with other information,
    >>> needs to have very exact column widths.

    >>
    >> Sounds like a design flaw. Post a URL.

    >
    > I've reduced my HTML right down to the bare bones to illustrate my
    > problem. What tends to happen is that, if there are spaces, then the


    <snip code>

    http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=what is a URL?&btnG=Google Search
    what is a URL? - Google Search

    --
    Take care,

    Jonathan
    -------------------
    LITTLE WORKS STUDIO
    http://www.LittleWorksStudio.com
     
    Jonathan N. Little, Oct 18, 2007
    #6
  7. Alan Searle

    Alan Searle Guest

    Bergamot wrote:
    > Post a URL. If you won't make the effort to make a publicly accessible
    > web page, why should we make any effort to help you? There are lots of
    > free places to post test pages so there is no excuse for not having one.


    Yes, you're right: It is easy to get free web space. And here is my
    example table ...

    http://alse.load4.net/tabletest/table_test02.html

    I have set the table width to 300 and each column to 100 but, as you
    will see, because the text in Col02 is too long, it fails to wrap and
    the column is much wider than I want. If I break up the text, then the
    column behaves correctly.

    > And put the problem in context, not some bogus Lorem ipsum stuff. If we
    > see the whole picture, we may offer different ways to acheive your goal
    > that you might not have considered. IOW, you may be trying to fix the
    > wrong problem by deciding on a solution (exact column widths) before
    > fully understanding the issues.


    Ah, yes, let me expand: I am presenting some big tables of data and so,
    in the header I present the titles followed by a division break and then
    the table below becomes scrollable (with the header/titles always
    displayed). This is great but of course you have to make sure that the
    column widths of the table are exactly the same width as the titles that
    you have declared in the header. Otherwise you have skewed columns
    under the headers which makes it difficult to read.

    On most of the reports this works great but, wherever there is a long
    item of text in a particular column, then the whole thing gets distorted.

    Any tips would be most welcome.

    Regards and thanks,
    Alan Searle.
     
    Alan Searle, Oct 19, 2007
    #7
  8. Alan Searle

    rf Guest

    "Alan Searle" <> wrote in message
    news:ff9opc$9nf$...
    > Bergamot wrote:


    > Ah, yes, let me expand: I am presenting some big tables of data and so,
    > in the header I present the titles followed by a division break and then
    > the table below becomes scrollable (with the header/titles always
    > displayed). This is great but of course you have to make sure that the
    > column widths of the table are exactly the same width as the titles that
    > you have declared in the header. Otherwise you have skewed columns under
    > the headers which makes it difficult to read.
    >
    > On most of the reports this works great but, wherever there is a long item
    > of text in a particular column, then the whole thing gets distorted.
    >
    > Any tips would be most welcome.


    This has been asked many, many times before (at least once a month). The
    answer is "this is how tables work".

    Google for further information but consider overflow: hidden; which will
    work but will also hide your content.

    Trying to simulate a fixed <thead> (which *is* defined in the specs but is
    unsupported) with a seperate table is doomed to failure. This also has been
    discussed many times before.

    As Bergamot hinted, you are trying to fix the wrong problem. The *real*
    problem is that your designer is insisting on that fixed header.

    By the way, you did *not* provide an example of what your page will
    eventually look like. Your example page has only one table, not the
    "division break" you hint at above. So, it is actually still a little
    unclear what you exactly want.

    --
    Richard.
     
    rf, Oct 19, 2007
    #8
  9. Alan Searle

    dorayme Guest

    In article <ff9opc$9nf$>,
    Alan Searle <> wrote:

    > Bergamot wrote:
    > > Post a URL. If you won't make the effort to make a publicly accessible
    > > web page, why should we make any effort to help you? There are lots of
    > > free places to post test pages so there is no excuse for not having one.

    >
    > Yes, you're right: It is easy to get free web space. And here is my
    > example table ...
    >
    > http://alse.load4.net/tabletest/table_test02.html
    >
    > I have set the table width to 300 and each column to 100 but, as you
    > will see, because the text in Col02 is too long, it fails to wrap and
    > the column is much wider than I want. If I break up the text, then the
    > column behaves correctly.
    >
    > > And put the problem in context, not some bogus Lorem ipsum stuff. If we
    > > see the whole picture, we may offer different ways to acheive your goal
    > > that you might not have considered. IOW, you may be trying to fix the
    > > wrong problem by deciding on a solution (exact column widths) before
    > > fully understanding the issues.

    >
    > Ah, yes, let me expand: I am presenting some big tables of data and so,
    > in the header I present the titles followed by a division break and then
    > the table below becomes scrollable (with the header/titles always
    > displayed). This is great but of course you have to make sure that the
    > column widths of the table are exactly the same width as the titles that
    > you have declared in the header. Otherwise you have skewed columns
    > under the headers which makes it difficult to read.
    >
    > On most of the reports this works great but, wherever there is a long
    > item of text in a particular column, then the whole thing gets distorted.
    >
    > Any tips would be most welcome.
    >
    > Regards and thanks,
    > Alan Searle.


    Your url is not exactly showing the context but never mind, it is
    impossible to ask a question. It has never been done correctly
    yet on earth.

    So you don't like:

    css:

    td {border 1px solid #000;} /* to show more clearly */


    <table>
    <tr>
    <th>Col01</th>
    <th>Col02</th>
    <th>Col03</th>
    </tr>
    <tr>
    <td>aaa</td>
    <td>the_rain_in_spain_stays_mainly</td>
    <td>ccc</td>
    </tr>
    </table>

    because the unbreakable content of the second cell on the second
    row is too big for the width of the column you would like and
    would look bad wrapped even if it could wrap. Would you be happy
    if *all* the cells were as wide as your widest cell? That would
    not be hard to arrange.

    --
    dorayme
     
    dorayme, Oct 19, 2007
    #9
  10. Alan Searle

    Ben C Guest

    On 2007-10-19, rf <> wrote:
    >
    > "Alan Searle" <> wrote in message
    > news:ff9opc$9nf$...
    >> Bergamot wrote:

    >
    >> Ah, yes, let me expand: I am presenting some big tables of data and so,
    >> in the header I present the titles followed by a division break and then
    >> the table below becomes scrollable (with the header/titles always
    >> displayed). This is great but of course you have to make sure that the
    >> column widths of the table are exactly the same width as the titles that
    >> you have declared in the header. Otherwise you have skewed columns under
    >> the headers which makes it difficult to read.
    >>
    >> On most of the reports this works great but, wherever there is a long item
    >> of text in a particular column, then the whole thing gets distorted.
    >>
    >> Any tips would be most welcome.

    >
    > This has been asked many, many times before (at least once a month). The
    > answer is "this is how tables work".
    >
    > Google for further information but consider overflow: hidden; which will
    > work but will also hide your content.


    I think that does work in some browsers but not in others. And I'm not
    sure about it.

    The spec (CSS 2.1 17.5.2.2) says:

    Calculate the minimum content width (MCW) of each cell: the
    formatted content may span any number of lines but may not overflow
    the cell box. If the specified 'width' (W) of the cell is greater
    than MCW, W is the minimum cell width ...

    So what does "may not overflow the cell box" mean?

    If overflow is set to hidden, in the technical CSS sense, the box still
    overflows. The overflow property just says what to do about, not that it
    hasn't happened.

    But if the overflowing bit has been clipped, because overflow was set to
    hidden, then you might say in ordinary language that the box no longer
    overflows.

    On the former interpretation, which I favour, the value of the overflow
    property should make absolutely no difference to minimum content width.
    So it shouldn't stop table-cells growing past their set widths to fit
    long unbreakable sequences.

    The same thing applied to shrink-to-fit calculations for floats was
    behind the anomaly observed by dorayme on htmldog.com recently. Firefox
    allowed a big <pre> element to be shorter than its minimum content width
    because it had overflow: scroll.

    [...]
    > By the way, you did *not* provide an example of what your page will
    > eventually look like. Your example page has only one table, not the
    > "division break" you hint at above. So, it is actually still a little
    > unclear what you exactly want.


    Yes, it sounds like the best thing would be one big table. That will
    make sure the headings line up with the columns properly.
     
    Ben C, Oct 19, 2007
    #10
  11. Alan Searle

    Bergamot Guest

    Alan Searle wrote:
    >
    > I am presenting some big tables of data and so,
    > in the header I present the titles followed by a division break and then
    > the table below becomes scrollable


    You are trying to fix the wrong problem after all. Separating the table
    headers from the table data is illogical and semantically incorrect.
    There are better ways to get a scrolling tbody. If you search for "fixed
    table headers" or "scrolling tbody" you'll probably find one, maybe several.

    > On most of the reports this works great


    No doubt by coincidence, or luck.

    --
    Berg
     
    Bergamot, Oct 19, 2007
    #11
  12. Alan Searle

    Alan Searle Guest

    Bingo: scrolling tbody is the answer!

    Bergamot wrote:

    > There are better ways to get a scrolling tbody. If you search for "fixed
    > table headers" or "scrolling tbody" you'll probably find one, maybe several.


    Bingo! Yes, many thanks: This is exactly what I need.

    But during my googling I did find a number of sites which use the
    technique that I had been using. I find this strange and I find it
    strange that when I did my initial development the 'div' method was
    suggested. Anyway, the 'tbdody' method seems infinitely easy and more
    stable.

    Many thanks for your patience and your replies to my questions and I'll
    report back to you guys to tell you how I get on implementing this.

    Regards,
    Alan Searle
     
    Alan Searle, Oct 20, 2007
    #12
  13. Alan Searle

    Alan Searle Guest

    tbody frustration ...

    Arrgghh ...

    I implemented the scrolling tbody solution and, yippee, it worked
    perfectly ... under Firefox. Here is the URL ...

    http://alse.load4.net/tabletest/table_test03.html

    But under IE (6.0 SP1), it all goes haywire.

    This is very frustrating because, yes, as you guys have recognised, my
    battle with the column-widths is completely futile. Here, the scrolling
    tbody syntax is exactly what I need. But it needs to work under IE
    (unfortunately).

    Does anyone have a tweak or a syntax recommendation for getting it to
    work under IE? Or will it maybe work under later versions of IE?

    Any tips would be a great help.

    Regards and thanks,
    Alan Searle
     
    Alan Searle, Oct 20, 2007
    #13
  14. Re: tbody frustration ...

    Alan Searle wrote:
    > Arrgghh ...
    >
    > I implemented the scrolling tbody solution and, yippee, it worked
    > perfectly ... under Firefox. Here is the URL ...
    >
    > http://alse.load4.net/tabletest/table_test03.html
    >
    > But under IE (6.0 SP1), it all goes haywire.


    You've triggered quirks mode, all bets are off! What are you really
    trying to do here. Put up a page with some content that relates to what
    you are trying to accomplish, there might be a different approach that
    we better suit.

    --
    Take care,

    Jonathan
    -------------------
    LITTLE WORKS STUDIO
    http://www.LittleWorksStudio.com
     
    Jonathan N. Little, Oct 20, 2007
    #14
  15. Alan Searle

    Alan Searle Guest

    Re: tbody frustration ...

    Jonathan N. Little wrote:
    > Alan Searle wrote:
    >> I implemented the scrolling tbody solution and, yippee, it worked
    >> perfectly ... under Firefox. Here is the URL ...
    >>
    >> http://alse.load4.net/tabletest/table_test03.html
    >>
    >> But under IE (6.0 SP1), it all goes haywire.


    > You've triggered quirks mode, all bets are off!


    'quirks mode'? What does this mean? Are you saying that it simply
    won't work under IE ?

    > What are you really
    > trying to do here. Put up a page with some content that relates to what
    > you are trying to accomplish, there might be a different approach that
    > we better suit.


    My aim is very simple: I have reporting data that is in a simple table
    format but is so long that I really need to have static headers so that
    the reader continues to see the column titles as he/she scrolls down.
    There is no fancy presentation. It is as simple as that. I am working
    with client data so I can't post the original content and, anyway, I
    don't think that would help much because this is a fundamental question
    about whether a scrollable table is possible under IE?

    My first attempt was to divide up the page (with div tags) and make one
    half scrollable. That worked OK but in some cases (where long text was
    involved) the column widths distorted and dropped out of sync with the
    headers.

    Then I was told about the tbody syntax which seemed to be exactly what I
    need. But now this seems to be problematic with IE.

    This can probably be done with a script language (javascript) or with
    plug-ins but this would complicate it and what I really need is simple
    HTML (or CSS) synatax that will give me a scrollable table with a fixed
    header.

    I really hope that someone can help me with this?

    Regards and many thanks,
    Alan Searle.
     
    Alan Searle, Oct 20, 2007
    #15
  16. Alan Searle

    dorayme Guest

    Re: tbody frustration ...

    In article <ffd14m$omv$>,
    Alan Searle <> wrote:

    > Arrgghh ...
    >
    > I implemented the scrolling tbody solution and, yippee, it worked
    > perfectly ... under Firefox. Here is the URL ...
    >
    > http://alse.load4.net/tabletest/table_test03.html
    >
    > But under IE (6.0 SP1), it all goes haywire.


    I was thinking, "I wonder if Alan will come back and tell us how
    he went cross browser"...

    --
    dorayme
     
    dorayme, Oct 20, 2007
    #16
  17. Alan Searle

    dorayme Guest

    Re: tbody frustration ...

    In article <ffdlig$3uk$>,
    Alan Searle <> wrote:

    > Jonathan N. Little wrote:
    > > Alan Searle wrote:
    > >> I implemented the scrolling tbody solution and, yippee, it worked
    > >> perfectly ... under Firefox. Here is the URL ...
    > >>
    > >> http://alse.load4.net/tabletest/table_test03.html
    > >>
    > >> But under IE (6.0 SP1), it all goes haywire.

    >
    > > You've triggered quirks mode, all bets are off!

    >
    > 'quirks mode'? What does this mean? Are you saying that it simply
    > won't work under IE ?
    >


    Look at

    <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quirks_mode>

    Even given a proper 4.01 doctype, it does not work in Mac Safari,
    iCab, nor in my Opera 9.2.

    Plus in FF totally unnecessary horizontal scroll bars appear.
    Even unnecessary vertical bars at times. Better to remove your:

    tbody {
    height:10em;
    overflow:auto;
    }
    #tblbody{height:35em; overflow:scroll;}

    and at most replace with:

    tbody {overflow:auto;}

    This at least gets it working in FF and does not make for
    excessive appearing scrollbars...

    Getting all this to work and degrade right in non complying
    browsers does require quite some skill and/or research.

    There are alternatives but you are likely wanting to focus on
    getting this to work.

    Why not take a look at something that at least does seem to work
    on FF and Safari and Camino (I am too frightened to look at
    MacIE, does not work on iCab):

    <http://www.imaputz.com/cssStuff/bigFourVersion.html>

    I would be very surprised if it did not work on WinIE considering
    the tremendous efforts the author has gone to to ensure it does.

    --
    dorayme
     
    dorayme, Oct 20, 2007
    #17
  18. Alan Searle

    dorayme Guest

    Re: tbody frustration ...

    In article
    <>,
    dorayme <> wrote:

    > Why not take a look at something that at least does seem to work
    > on FF and Safari and Camino (I am too frightened to look at
    > MacIE, does not work on iCab):
    >
    > <http://www.imaputz.com/cssStuff/bigFourVersion.html>
    >
    > I would be very surprised if it did not work on WinIE considering
    > the tremendous efforts the author has gone to to ensure it does.


    Curiosity got the better of me. The author is in fact wrong about
    the table not appearing at all (see lower in his page) in Mac IE.
    It appears, it is just not ideally scrollable...

    --
    dorayme
     
    dorayme, Oct 20, 2007
    #18
  19. Re: tbody frustration ...

    Alan Searle wrote:
    > Jonathan N. Little wrote:
    >> Alan Searle wrote:
    >>> I implemented the scrolling tbody solution and, yippee, it worked
    >>> perfectly ... under Firefox. Here is the URL ...
    >>>
    >>> http://alse.load4.net/tabletest/table_test03.html
    >>>
    >>> But under IE (6.0 SP1), it all goes haywire.

    >
    >> You've triggered quirks mode, all bets are off!

    >
    > 'quirks mode'? What does this mean? Are you saying that it simply
    > won't work under IE ?


    http://www.quirksmode.org/css/quirksmode.html
    CSS - Quirks mode and strict mode

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quirks_mode
    Quirks mode - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    >
    >> What are you really trying to do here. Put up a page with some content
    >> that relates to what you are trying to accomplish, there might be a
    >> different approach that we better suit.

    >
    > My aim is very simple: I have reporting data that is in a simple table
    > format but is so long that I really need to have static headers so that
    > the reader continues to see the column titles as he/she scrolls down.
    > There is no fancy presentation. It is as simple as that. I am working
    > with client data so I can't post the original content and, anyway, I
    > don't think that would help much because this is a fundamental question
    > about whether a scrollable table is possible under IE?
    >
    > My first attempt was to divide up the page (with div tags) and make one
    > half scrollable. That worked OK but in some cases (where long text was
    > involved) the column widths distorted and dropped out of sync with the
    > headers.
    >
    > Then I was told about the tbody syntax which seemed to be exactly what I
    > need. But now this seems to be problematic with IE.
    >
    > This can probably be done with a script language (javascript) or with
    > plug-ins but this would complicate it and what I really need is simple
    > HTML (or CSS) synatax that will give me a scrollable table with a fixed
    > header.


    One way requires 2 tables, a containing div and tweaking but works in
    old IE... Note the doctype and all to make page strict and not trigger
    quirks mode.

    <!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.01//EN"
    "http://www.w3.org/TR/html4/strict.dtd">
    <html>
    <head>
    <meta http-equiv="content-type" content="text/html; charset=iso-8859-1">
    <meta http-equiv="content-language" content="en-us">

    <title>Fixed Header</title>

    <style type="text/css">

    table, td, th { table-layout: fixed; }
    th { text-align: left; }
    table.freeze { width: 25em; }
    /* make containing DIV a bit larger for scrollbar */
    div.scroll { width: 26.5em; height: 10em; overflow: auto; }
    div.scroll table { width: 25em; }
    </style>

    </head>
    <body>

    <table class="freeze">
    <colgroup><col width="15%"><col><col width="15%"></colgroup>
    <tr><th>Col01</th><th>Col02</th><th>Col03</th></tr>
    </table>
    <div class="scroll">
    <table>
    <colgroup><col width="15%"><col><col width="15%"></colgroup>
    <tr><td>aaa</td><td>the_rain_in_spain_stays_mainly</td><td>ccc</td></tr>
    <tr><td>aaa</td><td>the_rain_in_spain_stays_mainly</td><td>ccc</td></tr>
    <tr><td>aaa</td><td>the_rain_in_spain_stays_mainly</td><td>ccc</td></tr>

    ....
    more rows
    ....

    </table>
    </div>

    </body>
    </html>



    --
    Take care,

    Jonathan
    -------------------
    LITTLE WORKS STUDIO
    http://www.LittleWorksStudio.com
     
    Jonathan N. Little, Oct 21, 2007
    #19
  20. Alan Searle

    Bergamot Guest

    Re: tbody frustration ...

    Jonathan N. Little wrote:
    > Alan Searle wrote:
    >>>> I implemented the scrolling tbody solution and, yippee, it worked
    >>>> perfectly ... under Firefox.
    >>>> But under IE (6.0 SP1), it all goes haywire.

    >
    > One way requires 2 tables, a containing div and tweaking but works in
    > old IE...


    If you look back farther in the thread, you'll see that's how he was
    doing it before. Separating the table headers from the data is
    semantically incorrect and prone to layout problems, which is exactly
    what the OP was trying to correct.

    --
    Berg
     
    Bergamot, Oct 21, 2007
    #20
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