Telling the truth at interviews for Java positions

[lyallex]

Hi

I know this is not about Java development but I couldn't think of a
better place to post it. It certainly affects professional Java
personel.

I have just escaped from a rather unpleasent organization here in the
UK. At both the interviews I attended I made it quite plain that I was
after a senior Java developers position. I even made my position clear
to the MD. At all times I was assured that the position I was applying
for WAS a senior position and the salary appeared to reflect this.

In the four and a half months I endured this nightmare I did not
recieve a single project that was anywhere near what I would call
senior. In fact such projects did not appear to exist in the
organization full stop. I spent my time writing documentation and
solving networking problems that the IT department appeared unable to
fix themselves. I did make a few minor changes to a couple of
applications but I guess this amounted to no more that 5% of my
working time there.

Fortunately I managed to get another job that will start in January.

Now I do of course realise that in an organisation of whatever size it
is often a requirement that everyone chip in in times of need. BUT
that is a whole lot different to the situation I found myself in.

Actually this is not the first time that this has happened to me.

We are always told that we should never lie on our CVs.
I have certainly never lied on mine.
It appears however that employers can say whatever they like in
interviews with no comeback at all. I have now wasted 4 and a half
months of my life in a pointless exercise that has done nothing to
advance my understanding of the language.

I'd be most interested to hear if others have had similar experiences.

Many thanks
lyallex

 

[dingo]

at least you get payed well, if you got that senior salary !!

 

[Sudsy]

lyallex wrote:

In the four and a half months I endured this nightmare I did not
recieve a single project that was anywhere near what I would call
senior. In fact such projects did not appear to exist in the
organization full stop. I spent my time writing documentation and
solving networking problems that the IT department appeared unable to
fix themselves. I did make a few minor changes to a couple of
applications but I guess this amounted to no more that 5% of my
working time there.

<snip>

So what are you complaining about? Sound like a great job! My title
at one contract position was "resident guru" and I was called upon
to assist in any number of areas. It's challenging and fun. If you
expected to "advance my understanding of the language" then why
were you applying for a senior position? You should already know
just about everything Java for such a role, no?
So if this company wants a "renaissance man" and are paying the
big bucks then send the contact information.

 

[dingo]

heheh e Sudsy i was first

lyallex wrote:

<snip>

So what are you complaining about? Sound like a great job! My title
at one contract position was "resident guru" and I was called upon
to assist in any number of areas. It's challenging and fun. If you
expected to "advance my understanding of the language" then why
were you applying for a senior position? You should already know
just about everything Java for such a role, no?
So if this company wants a "renaissance man" and are paying the
big bucks then send the contact information.

 

[lyallex]

Ah yes, the "I know everything about Java" routine.

I've been using Java for getting on for 6 years now and in no way do I
know it all ... sounds like you do though ... remarkable, you must be
the only one on the planet who does.

If you had any idea what you were talking about it would be obvious to
you that it is impossible to know it all. Just look at Jakarta,
there's enough there to keep you in full time employment just keeping
up to date with new releases.

A senior developer (or a developer at any level come to that) has a
responsibility to themself and the company they are working for to
retain familiarity with their chosen language, the only way you can do
this is to use it daily.

hmm, that must mean you know all about the latest J2SE and EJB
releases and Swing and Jakarta and Struts and all the other millions
of things Java out there

Sorry, I don't believe you.

There is more to life than money my friend. I have to enjoy going to
work or I won't do it.

the point I was making is that I was lied to in the interview. If you
have had such an experience then I am interested to hear from you, if
not, save your breath.

Lyallex

 

[Andrew Thompson]

Ah yes, the "I know everything about Java" routine.

Can you learn the "in-line post with trimming" routine, then?
<http://www.physci.org/codes/javafaq.jsp#netiquette>

 

[lyallex]

Can you learn the "in-line post with trimming" routine, then?

<http://www.physci.org/codes/javafaq.jsp#netiquette>

Jeez, has everyone on this list taken grumpy pills.

Happy now ?

 

[Ann]

Jeez, has everyone on this list taken grumpy pills.

Happy now ?

If you were the boss at the new job how would you use
a new 'hot shot'? At first you have to validage that
said person is in fact a 'hot shot'. Can't risk putting
the 'so called hot shot' on something that could take
the company down.

 

[Jean Lutrin]

I'd be most interested to hear if others have had

similar experiences.

Hi there,

Answer slightly off-c.l.j.p.-topic, but as you ask...

I have a job right now (should be working btw, not
posting to Usenet but still took the time to go
to an interview last week. The company was a small
company (around 60 people), mostly employees and
some freelance (I'm a freelance btw).

We talked about Java... Then I mention that I know
a few things about Un*x in general and Linux in
particular (eg being able to setup a network, configuring
the stateful firewalls on the various machine, to setup
a CVS server in a chroot jail, to setup the development
DB -- PostgreSql or Mysql, do some Un*x shell scripting,
automate backup procedure over encrypted channels and
quite some more). But I clearly precise that I'm not
a Un*x admin at all, simply an enthusiast and that I'm
looking for a job where I'll be doing primarly Java
development.

And the guy, the main "Java architect", says to me: "Hey,
what if I say to you that we have two Unix admins, one of
them is really bad and we consider firing him, would
you be interested ?"



At least they were very clear about it! (Btw, I went to the
interview because a friend of mine told me they were looking
for Java developers... but he had warned me that they were
badly looking after a Unix admin so I wasn't *too* surprised
to hear this. Still, it felt funny to go to a "Java interview"
and to be asked if you're interested in a Unix admin job...)

See you soon,

Jean



P.S: And no I didn't take the "Unix admin" (!) job neither
the Java one, conditions were not better enough than what
I have now for me to consider switching. Moreover, I highly
respect skilled Unix admins, which I clearly don't consider
myself to be.

 

[Chris Smith]

I have just escaped from a rather unpleasent organization here in the
UK. At both the interviews I attended I made it quite plain that I was
after a senior Java developers position. I even made my position clear
to the MD. At all times I was assured that the position I was applying
for WAS a senior position and the salary appeared to reflect this.

In the four and a half months I endured this nightmare I did not
recieve a single project that was anywhere near what I would call
senior.

I wonder if you and your employer simply didn't agree on what "senior"
really means. I don't really look at the world as being composed of
"senior" work and "junior" work, so if I told you I wanted a senior
developer, it would just mean that I didn't want to train someone up to
a productive level on the job. It would not necessarily mean that I
have inherently difficult tasks that I need someone to perform.

In fact such projects did not appear to exist in the
organization full stop.

That seems to confirm my suspicion that you weren't lied to, but simply
misunderstood the work that existed at the organization.

--
www.designacourse.com
The Easiest Way To Train Anyone... Anywhere.

Chris Smith - Lead Software Developer/Technical Trainer
MindIQ Corporation

 

[lyallex]

Hi there,

Answer slightly off-c.l.j.p.-topic, but as you ask...

I have a job right now (should be working btw, not
posting to Usenet but still took the time to go
to an interview last week. The company was a small
company (around 60 people), mostly employees and
some freelance (I'm a freelance btw).
snip

And the guy, the main "Java architect", says to me: "Hey,
what if I say to you that we have two Unix admins, one of
them is really bad and we consider firing him, would
you be interested ?"

Yes, it's all a bit strange really isn't it, you go for one job and
they offer you another. Still at least they made it clear what they
were offering you.

Good luck and thanks for the reply.

Cheers
Lyallex

 

[Sudsy]

lyallex wrote:

hmm, that must mean you know all about the latest J2SE and EJB
releases and Swing and Jakarta and Struts and all the other millions
of things Java out there

Sorry, I don't believe you.

Did you see my sig? I could elaborate but you might consider it "blowing
my own horn".

There is more to life than money my friend. I have to enjoy going to
work or I won't do it.

the point I was making is that I was lied to in the interview. If you
have had such an experience then I am interested to hear from you, if
not, save your breath.

I was engaged to implement LDAP gateway in C. I ended up doing mostly
Java and very little C. Did they lie to me? Not at all. Once they learned
of my other skills they chose to partake of my experience.
Sorry, but I still don't see what you're complaining about...

 

[Gary Labowitz]

That seems to confirm my suspicion that you weren't lied to, but simply
misunderstood the work that existed at the organization.

And I would add that it can work both ways. I was sent on a job once that
was listed as a week's work for someone who knew Excel. When I got there the
job involved entering data into a bunch of sheets for salesmen's reports.
After doing one I saw that adding a macro to the template would automate the
entry such that they could do it themselves much quicker. I asked if they
would mind my doing that, they said okay, and I did. I finished the work the
first day and left.
The agency that sent me there was pissed because they were planning to bill
the client for a week and I only put in one day. The job they advertised and
hired for was simplier than the one they needed in this case.
Moral dilemma: should I have simply done what they asked for and wasted a
week? I would have made more money.
Moral dilemma 2: should the OP simply have done the simplier work and taken
the money, or leave and find work that deserved the level of pay for an
expert?

In the long run, the amount of money wasn't significant to me, but the
pleasure of having done the best job I could was.

 

[Chris Uppal]

[...] so if I told you I wanted a senior
developer, it would just mean that I didn't want to train someone up to
a productive level on the job. It would not necessarily mean that I
have inherently difficult tasks that I need someone to perform.

But would you think it fair not to make that clear at interview ? In
particular wouldn't you want to ensure that /you/ understood what the candidate
was expecting to get out of the job, and that you were in a position to supply
it ?

-- chris

 

[Chris Smith]

But would you think it fair not to make that clear at interview ? In
particular wouldn't you want to ensure that /you/ understood what the candidate
was expecting to get out of the job, and that you were in a position to supply
it ?

When I interview candidates, I always try to ensure that they understand
basically what kind of work they will be doing. That being the case,
though, I wouldn't feel any specific need to be any more explicit simply
because of having included the word "senior" in the job title. As I
said, that would indicate things about the need for supervision and on-
job training for the candidate to be productive, *not* about the type of
work being performed.

Then again, I also wouldn't perfectly know the type of work to be
performed before hiring a senior developer. Generally speaking, I'd
expect such a person to be capable of doing whatever is necessary to get
their job done.

--
www.designacourse.com
The Easiest Way To Train Anyone... Anywhere.

Chris Smith - Lead Software Developer/Technical Trainer
MindIQ Corporation