Test Please: Ancient Greek Unix Fonts??

Discussion in 'HTML' started by Andrew, Jul 15, 2006.

  1. Andrew

    Andrew Guest

    Hi,

    I have set a small sample of Ancient Greek that I was hoping an
    obliging Linux user and an obliging Mac user could have a look at to
    see if it renders ok. Screen capture would be great:

    http://www.andrews-corner.org/ancient_greek.html#greektest

    I have tentatively set the fonts for the Greek at:

    Windows: "palatino linotype", "Vusillus Old Face" ,Vusillus,"Arial
    Unicode MS",

    Macintosh:"Lucida Grande",

    Linux: Porson, "Athena Unicode", Gentium;

    Windows and Mac should be ok but I am definitely not sure about the
    choice and order of the Unix fonts.

    Thanks to anybody who can help!

    Andrew.
    --

    Andrew
    http://www.andrews-corner.org/
    Andrew, Jul 15, 2006
    #1
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  2. Andrew

    carolyn Guest

    Andrew wrote:

    > Hi,
    >
    > I have set a small sample of Ancient Greek that I was hoping an
    > obliging Linux user and an obliging Mac user could have a look at to
    > see if it renders ok. Screen capture would be great:


    Here is the screen capture. I hope it helps!

    http://www.marenger.com/provinggrounds/ancientGreekSample.png

    Carolyn
    --
    Carolyn Marenger
    carolyn, Jul 15, 2006
    #2
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  3. Andrew

    Dave Kelly Guest

    Dave Kelly, Jul 15, 2006
    #3
  4. On Sat, 15 Jul 2006 12:54:33 +0100, Andrew wrote
    (in article <>):

    > Hi,
    >
    > I have set a small sample of Ancient Greek that I was hoping an
    > obliging Linux user and an obliging Mac user could have a look at to
    > see if it renders ok. Screen capture would be great:
    >
    > http://www.andrews-corner.org/ancient_greek.html#greektest
    >
    > I have tentatively set the fonts for the Greek at:
    >
    > Windows: "palatino linotype", "Vusillus Old Face" ,Vusillus,"Arial
    > Unicode MS",
    >
    > Macintosh:"Lucida Grande",
    >
    > Linux: Porson, "Athena Unicode", Gentium;
    >
    > Windows and Mac should be ok but I am definitely not sure about the
    > choice and order of the Unix fonts.
    >


    Here you are Andrew. All on a Mac:
    http://www.sallysweb.co.uk/andrewfirefox.jpg
    http://www.sallysweb.co.uk/andrewopera.jpg
    http://www.sallysweb.co.uk/andrewcamino.jpg
    http://www.sallysweb.co.uk/andrewsafari.jpg

    No doubt you can guess which browser is which :) and they all render the
    Greek script OK.



    --
    Sally in Shropshire, UK
    bed and breakfast near Ludlow: http://www.stonybrook-ludlow.co.uk
    Burne-Jones/William Morris window in Shropshire church:
    http://www.whitton-stmarys.org.uk
    Sally Thompson, Jul 15, 2006
    #4
  5. Andrew <sorry.no.email@post_NG.com> scripsit:

    > I have set a small sample of Ancient Greek that I was hoping an
    > obliging Linux user and an obliging Mac user could have a look at to
    > see if it renders ok. Screen capture would be great:
    >
    > http://www.andrews-corner.org/ancient_greek.html#greektest

    - -
    > Windows and Mac should be ok


    Well, using Windows, I can see all the characters, but I'm not
    typographically happy with the appearance. The text seems to get displayed
    in Palatino Linotype, which looks partly odd. Some letters (especially
    lowercase alpha but also epsilon, pi and omega) are slanted, as if they were
    in italics, whereas many other characters are quite upright. This creates a
    somewhat unpleasant, if not slightly nauseating effect.

    I don't have any suggestion for improvement, since Arial Unicode MS is even
    worse for Greek, and there aren't many other fonts that support all of
    polytonic Greek.

    Maybe this is one of the cases where it would be best to let the user make
    the choice, even though this often means that the choice is chosen more or
    less "randomly" (the user accepts what he sees, at least unless it's really
    bad) and may even involve a mixture of fonts. I'm not sure whether an
    author's guess would generally be an improvement.

    --
    Jukka K. Korpela ("Yucca")
    http://www.cs.tut.fi/~jkorpela/
    Jukka K. Korpela, Jul 15, 2006
    #5
  6. Andrew

    Toby Inkster Guest

    Andrew wrote:

    > http://www.andrews-corner.org/ancient_greek.html#greektest


    Opera 9, Linux:
    http://examples.tobyinkster.co.uk/it_s_all_greek_to_me.png

    > I have tentatively set the fonts for the Greek at:
    > Linux: Porson, "Athena Unicode", Gentium;


    I don't have any of those fonts on my system -- the text in question seems
    to render in "Palatino Linotype". A better choice would probably be
    "Bitstream Vera Sans" which has a good Greek repetoire and is almost
    universally included with recent Linux distributions. Feel free to put it
    right at the front of your font list as virtually no Windows or Mac
    machines will have it installed.

    --
    Toby A Inkster BSc (Hons) ARCS
    Contact Me ~ http://tobyinkster.co.uk/contact
    Toby Inkster, Jul 15, 2006
    #6
  7. Andrew

    Andrew Guest

    On Sat, 15 Jul 2006 09:45:02 -0400, carolyn <>
    wrote:

    >Andrew wrote:
    >
    >> Hi,
    >>
    >> I have set a small sample of Ancient Greek that I was hoping an
    >> obliging Linux user and an obliging Mac user could have a look at to
    >> see if it renders ok. Screen capture would be great:

    >
    >Here is the screen capture. I hope it helps!
    >
    >http://www.marenger.com/provinggrounds/ancientGreekSample.png
    >
    >Carolyn


    Hi Carolyn,

    Thanks very much for that! Your browser actually broke the text, so I
    have a little more work to do! Looks like it spat the dummy with every
    single accent and breathing mark and placed a box instead.

    "Bitstream Vera Sans" has been suggested to me so I have added this in
    the hope that the Linux browsers will have a bit more success :)

    If you have the time, and I know I am pushing it a little here, can
    you have one more look for me with the new font added?

    Thanks very much for your trouble,

    Andrew.
    --

    Andrew
    http://www.andrews-corner.org/
    Andrew, Jul 16, 2006
    #7
  8. Andrew

    Andrew Guest

    Andrew, Jul 16, 2006
    #8
  9. Andrew

    Andrew Guest

    On Sat, 15 Jul 2006 18:47:48 +0100, Sally Thompson <>
    wrote:

    >On Sat, 15 Jul 2006 12:54:33 +0100, Andrew wrote
    >(in article <>):
    >
    >> Hi,
    >>
    >> I have set a small sample of Ancient Greek that I was hoping an
    >> obliging Linux user and an obliging Mac user could have a look at to
    >> see if it renders ok. Screen capture would be great:
    >>
    >> http://www.andrews-corner.org/ancient_greek.html#greektest
    >>
    >> I have tentatively set the fonts for the Greek at:
    >>
    >> Windows: "palatino linotype", "Vusillus Old Face" ,Vusillus,"Arial
    >> Unicode MS",
    >>
    >> Macintosh:"Lucida Grande",
    >>
    >> Linux: Porson, "Athena Unicode", Gentium;
    >>
    >> Windows and Mac should be ok but I am definitely not sure about the
    >> choice and order of the Unix fonts.
    >>

    >
    >Here you are Andrew. All on a Mac:
    >http://www.sallysweb.co.uk/andrewfirefox.jpg
    >http://www.sallysweb.co.uk/andrewopera.jpg
    >http://www.sallysweb.co.uk/andrewcamino.jpg
    >http://www.sallysweb.co.uk/andrewsafari.jpg
    >
    >No doubt you can guess which browser is which :) and they all render the
    >Greek script OK.



    Hi Sally,

    Thanks for that very comprehensive set of captures!! Looks like Mac &
    Windows are ok, just a few nagging problems with Linux. I am trying to
    avoid pdf greek texts which I have used before, it is just a bit
    tricky makinig the Greek readable on all OSs.

    Thanks very much,

    Andrew.
    --

    Andrew
    http://www.andrews-corner.org/
    Andrew, Jul 16, 2006
    #9
  10. Andrew

    Andrew Guest

    On Sat, 15 Jul 2006 23:15:31 +0300, "Jukka K. Korpela"
    <> wrote:

    >Andrew <sorry.no.email@post_NG.com> scripsit:
    >
    >> I have set a small sample of Ancient Greek that I was hoping an
    >> obliging Linux user and an obliging Mac user could have a look at to
    >> see if it renders ok. Screen capture would be great:
    >>
    >> http://www.andrews-corner.org/ancient_greek.html#greektest

    >- -
    >> Windows and Mac should be ok

    >
    >Well, using Windows, I can see all the characters, but I'm not
    >typographically happy with the appearance. The text seems to get displayed
    >in Palatino Linotype, which looks partly odd. Some letters (especially
    >lowercase alpha but also epsilon, pi and omega) are slanted, as if they were
    >in italics, whereas many other characters are quite upright. This creates a
    >somewhat unpleasant, if not slightly nauseating effect.
    >
    >I don't have any suggestion for improvement, since Arial Unicode MS is even
    >worse for Greek, and there aren't many other fonts that support all of
    >polytonic Greek.
    >
    >Maybe this is one of the cases where it would be best to let the user make
    >the choice, even though this often means that the choice is chosen more or
    >less "randomly" (the user accepts what he sees, at least unless it's really
    >bad) and may even involve a mixture of fonts. I'm not sure whether an
    >author's guess would generally be an improvement.


    Hi Jukka,

    Thanks very much for your comments. Palatino Linotype unfortunately
    is the most widely available and clearest of fonts for Ancient Greek
    in the Windows OS. I agree totally with the slanting effect seen to
    the font, have a look at a well established Ancient Greek site that
    uses Palatino Linotype, same effect:

    http://www.mikrosapoplous.gr/eyripedes/medea/medeae1.htm

    Oddly enough this site specifies Verdana for the Modern Greek
    translation but this renders the accents poorly and there are no
    breathing marks.

    Still a battle to render Ancient Greek well I guess,

    Thanks for your trouble,

    Andrew.
    --

    Andrew
    http://www.andrews-corner.org/
    Andrew, Jul 16, 2006
    #10
  11. Andrew

    Andrew Guest

    On Sat, 15 Jul 2006 23:42:25 +0100, Toby Inkster
    <> wrote:

    >Andrew wrote:
    >
    >> http://www.andrews-corner.org/ancient_greek.html#greektest

    >
    >Opera 9, Linux:
    >http://examples.tobyinkster.co.uk/it_s_all_greek_to_me.png
    >
    >> I have tentatively set the fonts for the Greek at:
    >> Linux: Porson, "Athena Unicode", Gentium;

    >
    >I don't have any of those fonts on my system -- the text in question seems
    >to render in "Palatino Linotype". A better choice would probably be
    >"Bitstream Vera Sans" which has a good Greek repetoire and is almost
    >universally included with recent Linux distributions. Feel free to put it
    >right at the front of your font list as virtually no Windows or Mac
    >machines will have it installed.


    Hi Tony,

    Thanks for your trouble. I have taken your suggestion and placed
    "Bitstream Vera Sans" at the head of the CSS list. Could I trouble you
    for one more look at the page with this font? After this I think the
    problem is mostly solved, just the hassle of actually typing the stuff
    :)

    Thanks very much for your trouble,

    Andrew.
    --

    Andrew
    http://www.andrews-corner.org/
    Andrew, Jul 16, 2006
    #11
  12. Andrew

    Toby Inkster Guest

    Toby Inkster, Jul 16, 2006
    #12
  13. Andrew

    Toby Inkster Guest

    Andrew wrote:

    > Thanks very much for that! Your browser actually broke the text, so I
    > have a little more work to do! Looks like it spat the dummy with every
    > single accent and breathing mark and placed a box instead.


    Carolyn's browser will still have problems no matter which font you use.
    Konqueror seems to have problems with the "Extended Greek" unicode range,
    only displaying the characters found in the "Greek and Coptic" range. This
    is a browser bug, and no amount of fiddling with fonts will fix it.

    Unicode: Greek and Coptic
    http://www.alanwood.net/unicode/greek.html

    Unicode: Greek Extended
    http://www.alanwood.net/unicode/greek_extended.html

    --
    Toby A Inkster BSc (Hons) ARCS
    Contact Me ~ http://tobyinkster.co.uk/contact
    Toby Inkster, Jul 16, 2006
    #13
  14. Andrew

    Dylan Parry Guest

    Andrew wrote:

    >>http://home.earthlink.net/~daveekelly/report-420012.png

    >
    > I could not quite identify the OS you are using from the screenshot?


    Well the desktop he was using appeared to be KDE (the style of the clock
    in the bottom-right was a dead giveaway). The actual OS doesn't really
    matter though as the browser was Firefox, which isn't OS dependent.

    --
    Dylan Parry - http://electricfreedom.org

    A Flower?
    Dylan Parry, Jul 16, 2006
    #14
  15. Andrew

    Andrew Guest

    On Sun, 16 Jul 2006 08:09:27 +0100, Toby Inkster
    <> wrote:

    >Andrew wrote:
    >
    >http://examples.tobyinkster.co.uk/it_s_all_greek_to_me2.png
    >
    >> Hi Tony,

    >
    >Hi Andreus
    >
    >> Could I trouble you for one more look at the page with this font?

    >
    >Much nicer.
    >http://examples.tobyinkster.co.uk/it_s_all_greek_to_me2.png
    >
    >You could have made things much easier for yourself if you'd chosen the
    >Aeneid as a source. :)


    Hi Tony,

    Thanks again for that, I now have more of an idea of what I am up
    against. Interestingly enough the "Bitstream Vera Sans" font certainly
    looks pretty good but it does not show any breathing marks (the small
    marks before words commencing with a vowel that indicate rough or
    silent breathing) or marks of elision (where vowels have been
    omitted).

    You can see an example in the second word of the quote, your first png
    (?Palatino) shows the breathing mark but not the second
    (Bitstream...).

    Latin certainly would be easier!!

    Thanks again,

    Andrew.
    --

    Andrew
    http://www.andrews-corner.org/
    Andrew, Jul 16, 2006
    #15
  16. Andrew

    carolyn Guest

    Andrew wrote:

    > On Sat, 15 Jul 2006 09:45:02 -0400, carolyn <>
    > wrote:
    >
    >>Andrew wrote:
    >>
    >>> Hi,
    >>>
    >>> I have set a small sample of Ancient Greek that I was hoping an
    >>> obliging Linux user and an obliging Mac user could have a look at to
    >>> see if it renders ok. Screen capture would be great:

    >>
    >>Here is the screen capture. I hope it helps!
    >>
    >>http://www.marenger.com/provinggrounds/ancientGreekSample.png
    >>
    >>Carolyn

    >
    > Hi Carolyn,
    >
    > Thanks very much for that! Your browser actually broke the text, so I
    > have a little more work to do! Looks like it spat the dummy with every
    > single accent and breathing mark and placed a box instead.
    >
    > "Bitstream Vera Sans" has been suggested to me so I have added this in
    > the hope that the Linux browsers will have a bit more success :)
    >
    > If you have the time, and I know I am pushing it a little here, can
    > you have one more look for me with the new font added?
    >
    > Thanks very much for your trouble,
    >
    > Andrew.


    I do have the time, and I will take it a step further. As Toby stated, it
    seems to be a konqueror issue, not a linux issue. Firefox, Epophany, and
    Opera all seem to work just fine. My two text browsers choke on it too,
    but that is probably a matter of what fonts are available to those
    browsers.

    http://www.marenger.com/provinggrounds/ancientGreek-Konqueror.png
    http://www.marenger.com/provinggrounds/ancientGreek-Firefox.png
    http://www.marenger.com/provinggrounds/ancientGreek-Epiphany.png
    http://www.marenger.com/provinggrounds/ancientGreek-Opera.png
    http://www.marenger.com/provinggrounds/ancientGreek-Lynx.png
    http://www.marenger.com/provinggrounds/ancientGreek-Links.png

    Good luck,

    Carolyn
    --
    Carolyn Marenger
    carolyn, Jul 16, 2006
    #16
  17. Andrew

    carolyn Guest

    Toby Inkster wrote:

    > Andrew wrote:
    >
    >> Thanks very much for that! Your browser actually broke the text, so I
    >> have a little more work to do! Looks like it spat the dummy with every
    >> single accent and breathing mark and placed a box instead.

    >
    > Carolyn's browser will still have problems no matter which font you use.
    > Konqueror seems to have problems with the "Extended Greek" unicode range,
    > only displaying the characters found in the "Greek and Coptic" range. This
    > is a browser bug, and no amount of fiddling with fonts will fix it.


    Thank you for the information. I haven't needed it, but now I am forewarned
    if I ever run across it.

    Carolyn
    --
    Carolyn Marenger
    carolyn, Jul 16, 2006
    #17
  18. Andrew

    Andrew Guest

    On Sun, 16 Jul 2006 06:16:21 -0400, carolyn <>
    wrote:

    >Andrew wrote:
    >
    >> On Sat, 15 Jul 2006 09:45:02 -0400, carolyn <>
    >> wrote:
    >>
    >>>Andrew wrote:
    >>>
    >>>> Hi,
    >>>>
    >>>> I have set a small sample of Ancient Greek that I was hoping an
    >>>> obliging Linux user and an obliging Mac user could have a look at to
    >>>> see if it renders ok. Screen capture would be great:
    >>>
    >>>Here is the screen capture. I hope it helps!
    >>>
    >>>http://www.marenger.com/provinggrounds/ancientGreekSample.png
    >>>
    >>>Carolyn

    >>
    >> Hi Carolyn,
    >>
    >> Thanks very much for that! Your browser actually broke the text, so I
    >> have a little more work to do! Looks like it spat the dummy with every
    >> single accent and breathing mark and placed a box instead.
    >>
    >> "Bitstream Vera Sans" has been suggested to me so I have added this in
    >> the hope that the Linux browsers will have a bit more success :)
    >>
    >> If you have the time, and I know I am pushing it a little here, can
    >> you have one more look for me with the new font added?
    >>
    >> Thanks very much for your trouble,
    >>
    >> Andrew.

    >
    >I do have the time, and I will take it a step further. As Toby stated, it
    >seems to be a konqueror issue, not a linux issue. Firefox, Epophany, and
    >Opera all seem to work just fine. My two text browsers choke on it too,
    >but that is probably a matter of what fonts are available to those
    >browsers.
    >
    >http://www.marenger.com/provinggrounds/ancientGreek-Konqueror.png
    >http://www.marenger.com/provinggrounds/ancientGreek-Firefox.png
    >http://www.marenger.com/provinggrounds/ancientGreek-Epiphany.png
    >http://www.marenger.com/provinggrounds/ancientGreek-Opera.png
    >http://www.marenger.com/provinggrounds/ancientGreek-Lynx.png
    >http://www.marenger.com/provinggrounds/ancientGreek-Links.png
    >
    >Good luck,
    >
    >Carolyn


    Hi Carolyn,

    Thanks again for this. I will admit to a moment of anguish when I saw
    the initial Konqueror screen capture :) Opera has also mangled the
    letter mu for some reason, and distorted the letter pi.

    But basically it looks as if I can type Ancient Greek, place it on
    the web and be happy that it is reaching as many people as care to
    look for it. (Mac, Linux and Windows).

    There are many people doing this at the moment but I am hoping to
    place a full transcription of Jebb's Oidipos (Oedipus) the King
    online. It is out of copyright so no legal probs and this would be a
    tremendous resource. 1,500 lines though and I type Greek very slowly
    :)

    Thanks for your help in this early part of my plan!!

    Andrew.
    --

    Andrew
    http://www.andrews-corner.org/
    Andrew, Jul 16, 2006
    #18
  19. Andrew

    carolyn Guest

    Andrew wrote:

    > On Sun, 16 Jul 2006 06:16:21 -0400, carolyn <>
    > wrote:
    >
    >>Andrew wrote:
    >>
    >>> On Sat, 15 Jul 2006 09:45:02 -0400, carolyn <>
    >>> wrote:
    >>>
    >>>>Andrew wrote:
    >>>>
    >>>>> Hi,
    >>>>>
    >>>>> I have set a small sample of Ancient Greek that I was hoping an
    >>>>> obliging Linux user and an obliging Mac user could have a look at to
    >>>>> see if it renders ok. Screen capture would be great:
    >>>>
    >>>>Here is the screen capture. I hope it helps!
    >>>>
    >>>>http://www.marenger.com/provinggrounds/ancientGreekSample.png
    >>>>
    >>>>Carolyn
    >>>
    >>> Hi Carolyn,
    >>>
    >>> Thanks very much for that! Your browser actually broke the text, so I
    >>> have a little more work to do! Looks like it spat the dummy with every
    >>> single accent and breathing mark and placed a box instead.
    >>>
    >>> "Bitstream Vera Sans" has been suggested to me so I have added this in
    >>> the hope that the Linux browsers will have a bit more success :)
    >>>
    >>> If you have the time, and I know I am pushing it a little here, can
    >>> you have one more look for me with the new font added?
    >>>
    >>> Thanks very much for your trouble,
    >>>
    >>> Andrew.

    >>
    >>I do have the time, and I will take it a step further. As Toby stated, it
    >>seems to be a konqueror issue, not a linux issue. Firefox, Epophany, and
    >>Opera all seem to work just fine. My two text browsers choke on it too,
    >>but that is probably a matter of what fonts are available to those
    >>browsers.
    >>
    >>http://www.marenger.com/provinggrounds/ancientGreek-Konqueror.png
    >>http://www.marenger.com/provinggrounds/ancientGreek-Firefox.png
    >>http://www.marenger.com/provinggrounds/ancientGreek-Epiphany.png
    >>http://www.marenger.com/provinggrounds/ancientGreek-Opera.png
    >>http://www.marenger.com/provinggrounds/ancientGreek-Lynx.png
    >>http://www.marenger.com/provinggrounds/ancientGreek-Links.png
    >>
    >>Good luck,
    >>
    >>Carolyn

    >
    > Hi Carolyn,
    >
    > Thanks again for this. I will admit to a moment of anguish when I saw
    > the initial Konqueror screen capture :) Opera has also mangled the
    > letter mu for some reason, and distorted the letter pi.
    >
    > But basically it looks as if I can type Ancient Greek, place it on
    > the web and be happy that it is reaching as many people as care to
    > look for it. (Mac, Linux and Windows).
    >
    > There are many people doing this at the moment but I am hoping to
    > place a full transcription of Jebb's Oidipos (Oedipus) the King
    > online. It is out of copyright so no legal probs and this would be a
    > tremendous resource. 1,500 lines though and I type Greek very slowly
    > :)
    >
    > Thanks for your help in this early part of my plan!!
    >
    > Andrew.


    I am glad I could help. Good luck with the project.

    Carolyn
    --
    Carolyn Marenger
    carolyn, Jul 16, 2006
    #19
  20. On Sun, 16 Jul 2006, Andrew wrote:

    > Still a battle to render Ancient Greek well I guess,


    You seem to be going the right way about representing your source
    material in HTML, and in a way that will reduce maintenance
    commitments in the future, as you don't seem to be applying any
    kludges to the content to pacify current browsers but which might
    become counter-productive as browsers improve. I'd rate that highly.
    There are far too many legacy quasi-HTML pages on the web which relied
    on old browser bugs, and now in desperate need of maintenance.

    As for your well-intentioned experiments in choosing fonts on behalf
    of the user, I'd have to rate this as a two-edged sword.

    For the average non-specialist user with recent versions of the fonts
    that you are working with, it may well be that your font proposals
    will produce better results, indeed.

    However, those who had an inferior version of one of the fonts that
    come earlier in your list, while having a better version of a font
    that comes later in your list, would get unfortunate consequences.

    However, for a specialist who has acquired their favourite
    Unicode-compatible font for polytonic Greek, your proposals rate to
    make things worse, by choosing an inferior font which they happen to
    have, rather than the one that they had gone out of their way to
    choose.

    I generally recommend to specialist readers in this kind of situation
    to disable author-specified fonts in their browser, and configure the
    browser to use the font which they desired. However, that then
    defeats /all/ font changes proposed by the author, which may be
    overkill, and removes some harmless site-specific visual benefits.

    Have you considered offering alternative stylesheets? Quite a number
    of browsers have support for that feature of CSS (Moz/Firefox and
    Opera to name just some). You might need to offer a link to a "tips
    on browsing this site"-type page, in which you talk about the use of
    "alternate stylesheets" (as they're rather confusingly[1] termed in
    the specs), since not every reader would be familiar with them.

    best regards

    [1] I say "confusing" because, in British English, "alternate" means
    first the one, then the other, by turns. "alternative" means "choose
    one from the two which are offered" (or, if not being too pedantic,
    "choose one from several"). In US usage it seems the terms are used
    more or less interchangeably.
    Alan J. Flavell, Jul 16, 2006
    #20
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