Text size

Discussion in 'HTML' started by Helen, Oct 23, 2005.

  1. Helen

    Helen Guest

    I was hoping someone can help me.

    OK, I am in the process of redesigning my website and I've noticed that in
    firefox the text is slightly bigger then in IE, nothing major or anything
    but would prefer the text to be the exact same size in both. I use the
    normal html <font size=1> text </font>. Can anyone help?
     
    Helen, Oct 23, 2005
    #1
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  2. On Sun, 23 Oct 2005 16:33:47 +0200, Helen <> wrote:

    > I was hoping someone can help me.
    >
    > OK, I am in the process of redesigning my website and I've noticed that in
    > firefox the text is slightly bigger then in IE, nothing major or anything
    > but would prefer the text to be the exact same size in both. I use the
    > normal html <font size=1> text </font>. Can anyone help?


    In IE you can either use [Ctrl]+scroll to size the text up or down, or use the
    menu [view > fontsize]. In FF you can use the [Ctrl]+scroll too to resize the
    text, or use the menu [view > text-size].

    No, that is not a joke. You needn't set a font size at all, or leave it at 100%.
    Your visitor, using one browser at the time and not noticing anything different
    between various browsers anyway, knows what font size is good for reading
    comfortable from his/her screen at his/her given browsing situation. If you
    prefer the fonts to be equal in those two browsers (there are many more) use
    your browser setting to achieve that. You can't achieve it through markup
    (alone).


    --
    ,-- --<--@ -- PretLetters: 'woest wyf', met vele interesses: ----------.
    | weblog | http://home.wanadoo.nl/b.de.zoete/_private/weblog.html |
    | webontwerp | http://home.wanadoo.nl/b.de.zoete/html/webontwerp.html |
    |zweefvliegen | http://home.wanadoo.nl/b.de.zoete/html/vliegen.html |
    `-------------------------------------------------- --<--@ ------------'
     
    Barbara de Zoete, Oct 23, 2005
    #2
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  3. Helen wrote:

    > OK, I am in the process of redesigning my website and I've noticed that in
    > firefox the text is slightly bigger then in IE


    You probably have your Firefox font size preference set differently to your
    Internet Explorer font size preference. (FF doesn't provice rather more
    fine grained control over font size).

    > I use the normal html <font size=1> text </font>.


    You should avoid that, its been deprecated (in favour of CSS) for a very
    long time. Its also tiny (to the point of being unreadable for many
    people). Many people consider that, generally at least, body[1] text should
    be left at whatever preference the user has set with some unimportant
    content reduced to perhaps 75% of that.

    [1] In the traditional sense, not the <body> element sense

    --
    David Dorward <http://blog.dorward.me.uk/> <http://dorward.me.uk/>
    Home is where the ~/.bashrc is
     
    David Dorward, Oct 23, 2005
    #3
  4. Helen

    Helen Guest

    It's ok, I got it sorted. Instead of the <font size=1> you put <font
    style="font-size:9px"> - which seems to be working.

    "Barbara de Zoete" <> wrote in message
    news:eek:p.sy3sqpfox5vgts@zoete_b...
    > On Sun, 23 Oct 2005 16:33:47 +0200, Helen <> wrote:
    >
    >> I was hoping someone can help me.
    >>
    >> OK, I am in the process of redesigning my website and I've noticed that
    >> in
    >> firefox the text is slightly bigger then in IE, nothing major or anything
    >> but would prefer the text to be the exact same size in both. I use the
    >> normal html <font size=1> text </font>. Can anyone help?

    >
    > In IE you can either use [Ctrl]+scroll to size the text up or down, or use
    > the menu [view > fontsize]. In FF you can use the [Ctrl]+scroll too to
    > resize the text, or use the menu [view > text-size].
    >
    > No, that is not a joke. You needn't set a font size at all, or leave it at
    > 100%. Your visitor, using one browser at the time and not noticing
    > anything different between various browsers anyway, knows what font size
    > is good for reading comfortable from his/her screen at his/her given
    > browsing situation. If you prefer the fonts to be equal in those two
    > browsers (there are many more) use your browser setting to achieve that.
    > You can't achieve it through markup (alone).
    >
    >
    > --
    > ,-- --<--@ -- PretLetters: 'woest wyf', met vele interesses: ----------.
    > | weblog | http://home.wanadoo.nl/b.de.zoete/_private/weblog.html |
    > | webontwerp | http://home.wanadoo.nl/b.de.zoete/html/webontwerp.html |
    > |zweefvliegen | http://home.wanadoo.nl/b.de.zoete/html/vliegen.html |
    > `-------------------------------------------------- --<--@ ------------'
     
    Helen, Oct 23, 2005
    #4
  5. Helen

    PeterMcC Guest

    Helen wrote in
    <435bb578$>

    > It's ok, I got it sorted. Instead of the <font size=1> you put <font
    > style="font-size:9px"> - which seems to be working.


    That means that anyone who has difficulty reading 9px on a hi-res screen,
    like myself, can't resize it in IE - usually not considered to be a good
    idea.

    --
    PeterMcC
    If you feel that any of the above is incorrect,
    inappropriate or offensive in any way,
    please ignore it and accept my apologies.
     
    PeterMcC, Oct 23, 2005
    #5
  6. [ Please quote properly. Don't toppost, cut out what you don't reply to, quote
    what you do reply to, attribute that quote and reply underneath. Fixed this
    once. ]

    On Sun, 23 Oct 2005 18:08:20 +0200, Helen <> wrote:

    > "Barbara de Zoete" <> wrote in message
    > news:eek:p.sy3sqpfox5vgts@zoete_b...
    >
    >> On Sun, 23 Oct 2005 16:33:47 +0200, Helen <> wrote:
    >>
    >>> I was hoping someone can help me.


    [ Q: wanting to set a font size, so it looks the samen in IE and FF
    A: use browser setting to achieve that ]

    > It's ok, I got it sorted. Instead of the <font size=1> you put <font
    > style="font-size:9px"> - which seems to be working.


    That is a bad choice in many ways:
    - using depricated markup (the font element);
    - using fixed font size;
    - using a way too small font size.

    Google this group (and alt.html.critique, comp.infosystems.www.authoting.*) for
    numerous discussions on these topics and find out why you are taking a wrong
    direction with this.

    >> --
    >> ,-- --<--@ -- PretLetters: 'woest wyf', met vele interesses: ----------.


    Please delete the sinature block of the message you reply to if your newsclient
    doesn't do that for you.


    --
    ,-- --<--@ -- PretLetters: 'woest wyf', met vele interesses: ----------.
    | weblog | http://home.wanadoo.nl/b.de.zoete/_private/weblog.html |
    | webontwerp | http://home.wanadoo.nl/b.de.zoete/html/webontwerp.html |
    |zweefvliegen | http://home.wanadoo.nl/b.de.zoete/html/vliegen.html |
    `-------------------------------------------------- --<--@ ------------'
     
    Barbara de Zoete, Oct 23, 2005
    #6
  7. Helen

    Helen Guest

    It's the only way I can get the text to be the same in both FireFox and IE
    without having to keep changing the size of the text in firefox, which also
    then means that i'll have to change it when I go to another site, something
    that is a major pain in the arse and why I have some sites open only in IE.
    I'm using the Veranda font so I think that is also making the text a bit
    bigger in FireFox too.

    "PeterMcC" <> wrote in message
    news:435bb90c$0$49791$...
    > Helen wrote in
    > <435bb578$>
    >
    >> It's ok, I got it sorted. Instead of the <font size=1> you put <font
    >> style="font-size:9px"> - which seems to be working.

    >
    > That means that anyone who has difficulty reading 9px on a hi-res screen,
    > like myself, can't resize it in IE - usually not considered to be a good
    > idea.
    >
    > --
    > PeterMcC
    > If you feel that any of the above is incorrect,
    > inappropriate or offensive in any way,
    > please ignore it and accept my apologies.
    >
     
    Helen, Oct 23, 2005
    #7
  8. Helen

    PeterMcC Guest

    Helen wrote in
    <435bc383$>


    >
    > "PeterMcC" <> wrote in message
    > news:435bb90c$0$49791$...
    >> Helen wrote in
    >> <435bb578$>
    >>
    >>> It's ok, I got it sorted. Instead of the <font size=1> you put <font
    >>> style="font-size:9px"> - which seems to be working.

    >>
    >> That means that anyone who has difficulty reading 9px on a hi-res
    >> screen, like myself, can't resize it in IE - usually not considered
    >> to be a good idea.


    > It's the only way I can get the text to be the same in both FireFox
    > and IE without having to keep changing the size of the text in
    > firefox, which also then means that i'll have to change it when I go
    > to another site, something that is a major pain in the arse and why I
    > have some sites open only in IE. I'm using the Veranda font so I
    > think that is also making the text a bit bigger in FireFox too.


    It seems to me, though you may see it otherwise, that the biggest pain is
    that people won't be able to read your text.

    Verdana is a poor choice as well, I'm afraid.
    http://www.xs4all.nl/~sbpoley/webmatters/verdana.html

    --
    PeterMcC
    If you feel that any of the above is incorrect,
    inappropriate or offensive in any way,
    please ignore it and accept my apologies.
     
    PeterMcC, Oct 23, 2005
    #8
  9. Helen wrote:

    Please do NOT top post.
    http://www.html-faq.com/etiquette/?toppost

    >>> style="font-size:9px"> - which seems to be working.


    >> That means that anyone who has difficulty reading 9px on a hi-res screen,
    >> like myself, can't resize it in IE


    > It's the only way I can get the text to be the same in both FireFox and IE


    Why does the font size need to be the same in Firefox and IE?

    Its the web, and all you can provide are presentation HINTS. Control is in
    the hands on the user, not the content author, and attempts to wrest it
    away are only going to cause more problems then they solve.

    Embrace the media, don't try to fight its strengths.

    --
    David Dorward <http://blog.dorward.me.uk/> <http://dorward.me.uk/>
    Home is where the ~/.bashrc is
     
    David Dorward, Oct 23, 2005
    #9
  10. Helen

    Arne Guest

    Once upon a time *Helen* wrote:
    > It's the only way I can get the text to be the same in both FireFox and IE
    > without having to keep changing the size of the text in firefox, which also
    > then means that i'll have to change it when I go to another site, something
    > that is a major pain in the arse and why I have some sites open only in IE.
    > I'm using the Veranda font so I think that is also making the text a bit
    > bigger in FireFox too.


    So the text to be the same in both is more important than the content
    and the visitors to be able to read the content?

    You think changing font size in your browser is a major pain. What do
    you think then the visitors think when they can't read the tiny text
    and can't change the size even if they want to?

    Think about what makes it so hard. Using Verdana can be one reason,
    using a tiny font size may be an other. I have no problems make the
    text look the same size in IE and Mozilla / Firefox.

    Font size in percent (100% = browsers original size) as default, font
    Arial or whatever most common (if any = leave it to the browser
    default) but not Verdana, may make the efforts easier.

    Note that I'm making an exeption when replying to your post. I'm doing
    it of interest, but only once. So please bottompost and cut out what
    you don't reply to, in the future.

    --
    /Arne
    Now killing all top posters and posters who don't quote
    * How to post: http://www.cs.tut.fi/~jkorpela/usenet/brox.html
    * From Google: http://www.safalra.com/special/googlegroupsreply/
    -------------------------------------------------------------
     
    Arne, Oct 23, 2005
    #10
  11. On Sun, 23 Oct 2005 17:08:20 +0100, "Helen" <>
    wrote:

    >It's ok, I got it sorted. Instead of the <font size=1> you put <font
    >style="font-size:9px"> - which seems to be working.
    >


    It won't work with me, because for my settings in Mozilla, I have the
    minimum font size set at 12 pixels.

    Nick

    --
    Nick Theodorakis

    contact form:
    http://theodorakis.net/contact.html
     
    Nick Theodorakis, Oct 23, 2005
    #11
  12. Helen

    Neredbojias Guest

    With neither quill nor qualm, Helen quothed:

    > It's the only way I can get the text to be the same in both FireFox and IE
    > without having to keep changing the size of the text in firefox, which also
    > then means that i'll have to change it when I go to another site, something
    > that is a major pain in the arse and why I have some sites open only in IE.


    It sounds like your designs are vulnerable to text-size variations -
    which isn't good design.

    > I'm using the Veranda font so I think that is also making the text a bit
    > bigger in FireFox too.


    Many people gripe about Verdana for obscure reasons, although I like it.
    However, it probably isn't the font most apt for a text-size sensitive
    page. You might want to try "Trebuchet MS".

    --
    Neredbojias
    Contrary to popular belief, it is believable.
     
    Neredbojias, Oct 23, 2005
    #12
  13. On Sun, 23 Oct 2005, Neredbojias wrote:

    > Many people gripe about Verdana for obscure reasons,


    There are people (of which I'm one) who advise against including it in
    author stylesheets for body text, for reasons which are clearly stated
    (sbpoley's page on the topic states them well, IMHO). If you disagree
    with them, you're entirely free to explain why. Murmuring about
    "obscure reasons" doesn't seem very honest to me.

    > although I like it.


    I'm sure Verdana is a fine font for some purposes: feel entirely free
    to set it as your browser default if you wish, or even to force it via
    your user stylesheet instead of what the author is proposing. The
    advice, however, remains: not to propose it for body text in an author
    stylesheet.

    best
     
    Alan J. Flavell, Oct 23, 2005
    #13
  14. Helen

    Neredbojias Guest

    With neither quill nor qualm, Alan J. Flavell quothed:

    >
    > On Sun, 23 Oct 2005, Neredbojias wrote:
    >
    > > Many people gripe about Verdana for obscure reasons,

    >
    > There are people (of which I'm one) who advise against including it in
    > author stylesheets for body text, for reasons which are clearly stated
    > (sbpoley's page on the topic states them well, IMHO). If you disagree
    > with them, you're entirely free to explain why. Murmuring about
    > "obscure reasons" doesn't seem very honest to me.


    Poley's main argument is that Verdana is slightly larger than the
    average font at the same size-setting. So big deal. Maybe the author
    wants his/her font to be slightly larger for improved readability,
    which, indeed, the font provides.

    Poley implies that authors are apt to specify a smaller css font-size
    setting to compensate for Verdana's largesse over, say, Arial. Gee
    whiz, if that's the only _mistake_ an author makes, he's doing quite
    well on the whole. Anything can be abused by improper usage.

    In addition, Poley states that the only common font he knows of which
    doesn't have digits of the same width is "Georgia" (-in refuting a
    reason to use Verdana.) While this may be true, the visible part of a
    thin digit does not always align well with that of a thicker digit and
    Verdana's greater girth helps alleviate this discrepancy.
    >
    > > although I like it.

    >
    > I'm sure Verdana is a fine font for some purposes: feel entirely free
    > to set it as your browser default if you wish, or even to force it via
    > your user stylesheet instead of what the author is proposing.


    I'm not suggesting either of those options. I'm just saying that
    Verdana seems a good font to me for some purposes. I like to use it for
    logos and some headings.

    > The
    > advice, however, remains: not to propose it for body text in an author
    > stylesheet.


    In general, probably not. However, I wouldn't hesitate to use it if the
    document were overwhelmingly textual material, such as a story or manual
    calculated to test one's tedium.
    >
    > best
    >


    Same.

    --
    Neredbojias
    Contrary to popular belief, it is believable.
     
    Neredbojias, Oct 24, 2005
    #14
  15. "Neredbojias" <> skrev i meddelandet
    news:...
    > With neither quill nor qualm, Alan J. Flavell quothed:
    >
    > >
    > > On Sun, 23 Oct 2005, Neredbojias wrote:
    > >
    > > > Many people gripe about Verdana for obscure reasons,

    > >
    > > There are people (of which I'm one) who advise against including it in
    > > author stylesheets for body text, for reasons which are clearly stated
    > > (sbpoley's page on the topic states them well, IMHO). If you disagree
    > > with them, you're entirely free to explain why. Murmuring about
    > > "obscure reasons" doesn't seem very honest to me.

    >
    > Poley's main argument is that Verdana is slightly larger than the
    > average font at the same size-setting. So big deal. Maybe the author
    > wants his/her font to be slightly larger for improved readability,
    > which, indeed, the font provides.
    >
    > Poley implies that authors are apt to specify a smaller css font-size
    > setting to compensate for Verdana's largesse over, say, Arial. Gee
    > whiz, if that's the only _mistake_ an author makes, he's doing quite
    > well on the whole. Anything can be abused by improper usage.
    >
    > In addition, Poley states that the only common font he knows of which
    > doesn't have digits of the same width is "Georgia" (-in refuting a
    > reason to use Verdana.) While this may be true, the visible part of a
    > thin digit does not always align well with that of a thicker digit and
    > Verdana's greater girth helps alleviate this discrepancy.
    > >
    > > > although I like it.

    > >
    > > I'm sure Verdana is a fine font for some purposes: feel entirely free
    > > to set it as your browser default if you wish, or even to force it via
    > > your user stylesheet instead of what the author is proposing.

    >
    > I'm not suggesting either of those options. I'm just saying that
    > Verdana seems a good font to me for some purposes. I like to use it for
    > logos and some headings.
    >
    > > The
    > > advice, however, remains: not to propose it for body text in an author
    > > stylesheet.

    >
    > In general, probably not. However, I wouldn't hesitate to use it if the
    > document were overwhelmingly textual material, such as a story or manual
    > calculated to test one's tedium.
    > >
    > > best
    > >

    >
    > Same.
    >
    > --



    Did anybody suggest in the past in this NG that it would not be wise to
    style the fonts because the configuration can be overriden by users´
    browsers?

    --
    Luigi Donatello Asero
    (sono italiano ma vivo in Svezia)
    (Ñ Ð¸Ñ‚Ð°Ð»ÑŒÑнец но Ñ Ð¶Ð¸Ð²Ñƒ в Швеции )
    (我是 æ„大利人 , 但是 我 ä½ åœ¨ ç‘žå…¸)
    (minä olen Italian kansalainen, mutta minä asun Ruotsissa)
    (yo soy italiano mas vivo en Suecia)
    (je suis italien mais j'habite en Suède)
    (ich bin Italiener aber ich lebe in Schweden)
    https://www.scaiecat-spa-gigi.com/de/willkommen.php
     
    Luigi Donatello Asero, Oct 24, 2005
    #15
  16. Helen

    dorayme Guest

    > From: "Luigi Donatello Asero" <>
    >
    > Did anybody suggest in the past in this NG that it would not be wise to
    > style the fonts because the configuration can be overriden by users´
    > browsers?



    Best not to rely heavily on particular fonts or sizes. If a
    website starts looking ghastly because a user has not got a
    particular specified font or needs it at a different size to the
    one specified then so much worse for the website design. It is
    instructive to try your hand at simply not specifying a font
    family at all (besides the generic ones like 'sans-serif'...)

    To do the best job possible, it helps to have some sort of idea
    of what is out there: probably a big cluster of folk on 15" to
    19" screens with many of the fonts you have, smaller clusters of
    people on other screens or readers, some with eyesight needs
    quite different to yours and so on... If you make it nice for a
    lot of folk, and useable (to extract important info) for the
    rest, then you will do well...

    --
    dorayme
     
    dorayme, Oct 24, 2005
    #16
  17. Helen

    Arne Guest

    Once upon a time *Neredbojias* wrote:
    >
    > Poley's main argument is that Verdana is slightly larger than the
    > average font at the same size-setting. So big deal. Maybe the author
    > wants his/her font to be slightly larger for improved readability,
    > which, indeed, the font provides.


    So why not use Arial with 10-11px if size in pixels necessarily want
    to be used, insted of Verdana 9px.


    > Poley implies that authors are apt to specify a smaller css font-size
    > setting to compensate for Verdana's largesse over, say, Arial. Gee
    > whiz, if that's the only _mistake_ an author makes, he's doing quite
    > well on the whole. Anything can be abused by improper usage.


    Anything can be abused by improper usage, thank's to IE that allow
    authors to "take over" the users browser in many ways. And is also
    very happy to accept nasty scripts from e.g. ActiveX and VBscript that
    a evil author put on the web. Fortunately other browsers can't be abused.

    --
    /Arne
    Now killing all top posters and posters who don't quote
    * How to post: http://www.cs.tut.fi/~jkorpela/usenet/brox.html
    * From Google: http://www.safalra.com/special/googlegroupsreply/
    -------------------------------------------------------------
     
    Arne, Oct 24, 2005
    #17
  18. Helen

    Neredbojias Guest

    With neither quill nor qualm, Luigi Donatello Asero quothed:

    >
    > "Neredbojias" <> skrev i meddelandet
    > news:...
    > > With neither quill nor qualm, Alan J. Flavell quothed:
    > >
    > > >
    > > > On Sun, 23 Oct 2005, Neredbojias wrote:
    > > >
    > > > > Many people gripe about Verdana for obscure reasons,
    > > >
    > > > There are people (of which I'm one) who advise against including it in
    > > > author stylesheets for body text, for reasons which are clearly stated
    > > > (sbpoley's page on the topic states them well, IMHO). If you disagree
    > > > with them, you're entirely free to explain why. Murmuring about
    > > > "obscure reasons" doesn't seem very honest to me.

    > >
    > > Poley's main argument is that Verdana is slightly larger than the
    > > average font at the same size-setting. So big deal. Maybe the author
    > > wants his/her font to be slightly larger for improved readability,
    > > which, indeed, the font provides.
    > >
    > > Poley implies that authors are apt to specify a smaller css font-size
    > > setting to compensate for Verdana's largesse over, say, Arial. Gee
    > > whiz, if that's the only _mistake_ an author makes, he's doing quite
    > > well on the whole. Anything can be abused by improper usage.
    > >
    > > In addition, Poley states that the only common font he knows of which
    > > doesn't have digits of the same width is "Georgia" (-in refuting a
    > > reason to use Verdana.) While this may be true, the visible part of a
    > > thin digit does not always align well with that of a thicker digit and
    > > Verdana's greater girth helps alleviate this discrepancy.
    > > >
    > > > > although I like it.
    > > >
    > > > I'm sure Verdana is a fine font for some purposes: feel entirely free
    > > > to set it as your browser default if you wish, or even to force it via
    > > > your user stylesheet instead of what the author is proposing.

    > >
    > > I'm not suggesting either of those options. I'm just saying that
    > > Verdana seems a good font to me for some purposes. I like to use it for
    > > logos and some headings.
    > >
    > > > The
    > > > advice, however, remains: not to propose it for body text in an author
    > > > stylesheet.

    > >
    > > In general, probably not. However, I wouldn't hesitate to use it if the
    > > document were overwhelmingly textual material, such as a story or manual
    > > calculated to test one's tedium.
    > > >
    > > > best
    > > >

    > >
    > > Same.
    > >
    > > --

    >
    >
    > Did anybody suggest in the past in this NG that it would not be wise to
    > style the fonts because the configuration can be overriden by users´
    > browsers?


    The law of averages strongly suggests "Yes." But there's nothing wrong
    with setting a font as long as it's done in the spirit of styling and
    the page works well with any (normal) font.

    --
    Neredbojias
    Contrary to popular belief, it is believable.
     
    Neredbojias, Oct 24, 2005
    #18
  19. Helen

    Neredbojias Guest

    With neither quill nor qualm, Arne quothed:

    > Once upon a time *Neredbojias* wrote:
    > >
    > > Poley's main argument is that Verdana is slightly larger than the
    > > average font at the same size-setting. So big deal. Maybe the author
    > > wants his/her font to be slightly larger for improved readability,
    > > which, indeed, the font provides.

    >
    > So why not use Arial with 10-11px if size in pixels necessarily want
    > to be used, insted of Verdana 9px.


    The look. Verdana has a fuller, blockier look than Arial which can be
    preferable at times and is also more desirable from the accessibility
    standpoint.

    > > Poley implies that authors are apt to specify a smaller css font-size
    > > setting to compensate for Verdana's largesse over, say, Arial. Gee
    > > whiz, if that's the only _mistake_ an author makes, he's doing quite
    > > well on the whole. Anything can be abused by improper usage.

    >
    > Anything can be abused by improper usage, thank's to IE that allow
    > authors to "take over" the users browser in many ways. And is also
    > very happy to accept nasty scripts from e.g. ActiveX and VBscript that
    > a evil author put on the web. Fortunately other browsers can't be abused.


    Yes, MS was probably not as astute as it could have been in the area of
    security, but that's business. I don't think BG is losing any sleep
    over it.

    --
    Neredbojias
    Contrary to popular belief, it is believable.
     
    Neredbojias, Oct 24, 2005
    #19
  20. Helen

    JDS Guest

    On Sun, 23 Oct 2005 18:08:18 +0100, Helen wrote:

    > It's the only way I can get the text to be the same in both FireFox and IE


    Why is this so important to you?

    It sounds like you are a print designer trying to make way into the more
    fluid and less controllable realm of web design. Web design requires
    a different approach in some respects than print design.

    --
    JDS | lid
    | http://www.newtnotes.com
    DJMBS | http://newtnotes.com/doctor-jeff-master-brainsurgeon/
     
    JDS, Oct 24, 2005
    #20
    1. Advertising

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