The big shots

[castironpi]

I'm a little dissatisfied, and just thinking aloud.

Some of the ideas that have been proposed on Python-ideas as well as
Python, have received partial evaluation from the alphas.

Lesser individuals than they could not have invented Python, and would
be liable to ban me merely for this post. Notwithstanding.

The reason they have cited is, "It is not in prevalent use."

The printing press, rail, automobiles, and Python, were not in
prevalent use before their invention. I.e., they -can't- come if one
doesn't build it. However, there were writing, transportation, and
programming before these respectively; does it merely suffice to
answer, "Yes it is?"

The Python gurus' combined professional judgement results in Python.

Looking through http://www.python.org/dev/peps/ , their own proposals
don't meet their own criteria. Start there.

It is neither necessary nor sufficient that an expansion is or would
be used.

 

[Steve Holden]

I'm a little dissatisfied, and just thinking aloud.

Some of the ideas that have been proposed on Python-ideas as well as
Python, have received partial evaluation from the alphas.

Lesser individuals than they could not have invented Python, and would
be liable to ban me merely for this post. Notwithstanding.

The reason they have cited is, "It is not in prevalent use."

The printing press, rail, automobiles, and Python, were not in
prevalent use before their invention. I.e., they -can't- come if one
doesn't build it. However, there were writing, transportation, and
programming before these respectively; does it merely suffice to
answer, "Yes it is?"

The Python gurus' combined professional judgement results in Python.

Looking through http://www.python.org/dev/peps/ , their own proposals
don't meet their own criteria. Start there.

It is neither necessary nor sufficient that an expansion is or would
be used.

Well it isn't a democracy, that's true. The "big shots" are the people
who have proven themselves capable not only of *having* good ideas but
also seeing them through into implementation.

I don't believe anyone would argue that Python is the best language for
absolutely every purpose, but it's pretty damned good for most of the
tings I want to do, so I guess I am in favor of letting "the big shots"
continue to ignore half-baked ideas

No process is perfect. If you want to change the python development
process you'll have to join the developers.

regards
Steve

 

[Aahz]

I'm a little dissatisfied, and just thinking aloud.

What exactly are you dissatisfied with? This post reminds me of one
reason why your ideas have not been well received: it is difficult to
understand what your point is.

Perhaps English is not your native language; if that is the case, you may
wish to either improve your proficiency or find someone else that you can
use your native language with to act as your champion. (I'm not
denigrating you for not knowing English; it is simply a fact that most
Python core development takes place in English, and many of the core
developers -- including Guido himself, MaL, and MvL -- are not native
speakers, either.)

Some of the ideas that have been proposed on Python-ideas as well as
Python, have received partial evaluation from the alphas.

What do you mean by "alphas"?

 

[Paul Rubin]

What do you mean by "alphas"?

Alpha test releases are the round of test distributions before the
beta tests, which come before the release candidates which come before
the final release. Ever since Python 2.4, Python's functools module
has supported partial evaluation, bundling up some of the arguments to
a function into a closure (also called currying). See:

http://python.org/doc/lib/module-functools

Apparently some stuff from python-ideas has been curried into closures
using the version of that module from some early Python test releases.

I couldn't understand the rest of the post you're replying to either.
The above was the only part I could make any sense of.

 

[Aahz]

Alpha test releases are the round of test distributions before the
beta tests, which come before the release candidates which come before
the final release.

Interesting, but I would bet that castironpi actually is referring to
"alpha males" (particularly in the context of "big shots"); however, your
confusion is precisely why I called it out. Incoherent writing rarely
flies well in this community (which is one reason why I love Python!).

 

[castironpi]

Interesting, but I would bet that castironpi actually is referring to
"alpha males" (particularly in the context of "big shots"); however, your
confusion is precisely why I called it out.  Incoherent writing rarely
flies well in this community (which is one reason why I love Python!).
--
Aahz ([email protected])           <*>        http://www.pythoncraft.com/

"All problems in computer science can be solved by another level of    
indirection."  --Butler Lampson

Who you callin' denigrates? Ahem. You think your ships don't
sink?

The problem did not seem to be miscommunication, rather bias.

What part of, "No one took the train before it was invented," do you
not understand?

No one climbed Mount Everest before it was discovered, and it wasn't
the tallest mountain until then either.

 

[Steve Holden]

Who you callin' denigrates? Ahem. You think your ships don't
sink?

Humor. Arf arf.

The problem did not seem to be miscommunication, rather bias.

What part of, "No one took the train before it was invented," do you
not understand?

The problem with this complaint is you simply seem to be saying "there's
a better language out there somewhere". No clue as to where it is, no
clue as to how it might be approached. Merely a suggestion that adding
randomly suggested features to Python, that are currently rejected for
what appear to me to be mostly sound reasons, will somehow lead us to
these undiscovered treasures.

No one climbed Mount Everest before it was discovered, and it wasn't
the tallest mountain until then either.

It *was* the tallest mountain - it existed before its discovery, and its
"discovery" wasn't news to the Sherpas who had been living on it for
hundreds of years.

regards
Steve

 

[Steve Holden]

Who you callin' denigrates? Ahem. You think your ships don't
sink?

Humor. Arf arf.

The problem did not seem to be miscommunication, rather bias.

What part of, "No one took the train before it was invented," do you
not understand?

The problem with this complaint is you simply seem to be saying "there's
a better language out there somewhere". No clue as to where it is, no
clue as to how it might be approached. Merely a suggestion that adding
randomly suggested features to Python, that are currently rejected for
what appear to me to be mostly sound reasons, will somehow lead us to
these undiscovered treasures.

No one climbed Mount Everest before it was discovered, and it wasn't
the tallest mountain until then either.

It *was* the tallest mountain - it existed before its discovery, and its
"discovery" wasn't news to the Sherpas who had been living on it for
hundreds of years.

regards
Steve

 

[Carsten Haese]

What part of, "No one took the train before it was invented," do you
not understand?

Actually, no one took the train before it was built. And no one built the
train before it was feasible to do so.

To take this analogy back into the world of software development, software
features only get built if it's feasible to build them. Unless you want to
contribute by building those features yourself, you're relinquishing the
decision of what's feasible to the "big shots". You get what you pay for.

 

[castironpi]

Humor. Arf arf.



The problem with this complaint is you simply seem to be saying "there's
a better language out there somewhere". No clue as to where it is, no
clue as to how it might be approached. Merely a suggestion that adding
randomly suggested features to Python, that are currently rejected for
what appear to me to be mostly sound reasons, will somehow lead us to
these undiscovered treasures.


It *was* the tallest mountain - it existed before its discovery, and its
"discovery" wasn't news to the Sherpas who had been living on it for
hundreds of years.

They hadn't discovered it -ei-ther! What is Mount Everest!?

Anyway, I am saying, "there's a good feature out there."

As I've said before: library additions are one thing; syntax changes
are another.

What, in terms of the former, do the gurus rule -out- point blank?

 

[Gabriel Genellina]

I'm a little dissatisfied, and just thinking aloud.

Some of the ideas that have been proposed on Python-ideas as well as
Python, have received partial evaluation from the alphas.

(Note that I'm not a Python alpha, I don't vote, approve nor reject
anything).

I skip your posts lately. Not because I have anything against you, not at
all. Just because it takes too much time for me to make any sense of what
you write, and I can't spend so much time in a single message.

This may or may not be related to your English skills (I'm not a native
English speaker, as several others in this group). Perhaps you just write
the first thing that comes to your mind at any time; but when I read that,
it looks like a random collection of phrases to me. My ex-neighbor spoke
in that way too; it was too difficult for me to follow him sometimes. The
same happened with an old girlfriend of mine; after a long speech about
the benefits of hydratation on the human being, how important is not to
forget it on winter, and how she broke a cup last Thursday, I had to
deduce: it *is* winter now, she likes tea, It must be Lipton (remember the
brand!!), her favourite cup is broken and I must find a clone... Saying "I
want a cup of tea" was not an option: too simple for her

I think the same happens with you. Maybe your thoughts are crystal clear
in your mind, but I'm unable to understand you, sorry.

 

[George Sakkis]

The problem did not seem to be miscommunication, rather bias.

IMHO it's partly because of the obscurity of the ideas and the code
you suggest, and partly because of the poor job you do to explain
them.

By the way, you may have noticed that you have been mostly replying to
your own posts here in c.l.py, which indicates that the lack of
responses has nothing to do with the supposed snobbishness of the "big
shots".

George

 

[Diez B. Roggisch]

I'm a little dissatisfied, and just thinking aloud.

Some of the ideas that have been proposed on Python-ideas as well as
Python, have received partial evaluation from the alphas.

Lesser individuals than they could not have invented Python, and would
be liable to ban me merely for this post. Notwithstanding.

The reason they have cited is, "It is not in prevalent use."

The printing press, rail, automobiles, and Python, were not in
prevalent use before their invention. I.e., they -can't- come if one
doesn't build it. However, there were writing, transportation, and
programming before these respectively; does it merely suffice to
answer, "Yes it is?"

The Python gurus' combined professional judgement results in Python.

Looking through http://www.python.org/dev/peps/ , their own proposals
don't meet their own criteria. Start there.

It is neither necessary nor sufficient that an expansion is or would
be used.

I don't get it as well - in all other open-source-communities I've been
participating, the anonymous wacko shelling out half-baked,
incomprehensible ideas faster than a gatling gun *immediately* had the
full attention of the big-wigs, and after a short time became project lead.

No idea what's wrong with these people here - but I bet if you team up
with Illias, you can start working on his language-to-rule-them-all in
no time, shortening the delivery goal of 2011 immensly.

Looking-forward-to-it-ly yours,

Diez

 

[Bruno Desthuilliers]

Diez B. Roggisch a écrit snip remaining of mostly inarticulate post, just couldn't make sens of
it - as usual)

No idea what's wrong with these people here - but I bet if you team up
with Illias, you can start working on his language-to-rule-them-all in
no time, shortening the delivery goal of 2011 immensly.

Hum... Perhaps a bit harsh, but there's something here : castironpi's
posts definitively have something in common with Illias' ones. Couldn't
name exactly what, but still...

<op>
If you really hope to get any serious attention, stop whining and learn
to express yourself clearly. This won't necessarily make anybody agree
with your proposals, but at least chances are someone will read them.
</op>

 

[castironpi]

(snip remaining of mostly inarticulate post, just couldn't make sens of
it - as usual)


Hum... Perhaps a bit harsh, but there's something here : castironpi's
posts definitively have something in common with Illias' ones. Couldn't
name exactly what, but still...

<op>
If you really hope to get any serious attention, stop whining and learn
to express yourself clearly. This won't necessarily make anybody agree
with your proposals, but at least chances are someone will read them.
</op>

Ok, take this one. C is faster than Python. It would be useful, in
certain cases, to write C.

It is possible but inconvenient, out of the way.

Date: Sat, 9 Feb 2008 11:48:51 -0800 (PST)
Subject: C function in a Python context
http://groups.google.com/group/comp.lang.python/browse_frm/thread/cd2f79dd12e81912/

A simple compile and link function. Useful for basic cases; if you
want to get fancy, don't use it.

My suspicion is that my choices of message subjects, function names,
and variable names, is the biggest hang up.

 

[Carsten Haese]

Ok, take this one. C is faster than Python. It would be useful, in
certain cases, to write C.

It is possible but inconvenient, out of the way.

Making that easier is a worthy goal...

Date: Sat, 9 Feb 2008 11:48:51 -0800 (PST)
Subject: C function in a Python context
http://groups.google.com/group/comp.lang.python/browse_frm/thread/cd2f79dd12e81912/

A simple compile and link function. Useful for basic cases; if you
want to get fancy, don't use it.

....and THAT's your solution?!? That solution is more insane than clever.
I enjoy thinking outside the box as much as anybody, but requiring the
run-time environment to have a compiler so that it can compile a piece
of "inline C code" every time the program is run is absolutely
ludicrous.

My suspicion is that my choices of message subjects, function names,
and variable names, is the biggest hang up.

I think your biggest hangup is that you believe too much in your own
creativity. There are already viable solutions out there for integrating
C and Python: Pyrex, Cython, and ctypes come to mind.

 

[castironpi]

Making that easier is a worthy goal...



...and THAT's your solution?!? That solution is more insane than clever.
I enjoy thinking outside the box as much as anybody, but requiring the
run-time environment to have a compiler so that it can compile a piece
of "inline C code" every time the program is run is absolutely
ludicrous.


I think your biggest hangup is that you believe too much in your own
creativity. There are already viable solutions out there for integrating
C and Python: Pyrex, Cython, and ctypes come to mind.

OH YEAH. Color me absent-minded. File under "No, they're not
compiled."

On the other hand, a number of modules are not available on all
platforms. 'extcode' is merely not available on all machines.

 

[castironpi]

IMHO it's partly because of the obscurity of the ideas and the code
you suggest, and partly because of the poor job you do to explain
them.

By the way, you may have noticed that you have been mostly replying to
your own posts here in c.l.py, which indicates that the lack of
responses has nothing to do with the supposed snobbishness of the "big
shots".

George

I'm going to start marking my subjective comments with a star, so it's
clear what is emperically verifiable, and what is not.

It's a bad sign. If you aren't keeping your thoughts to yourself, and
thrashing about the world for a peer, a social network, a support
group, or a community, then you missed the day in grammar school when
they were handing out smiles. But they're not handing them out
anymore.

Even on my emperical claims, I'm wrong 90% of the time. On the
subjective ones, I'm not only wrong that much, but no one else want to
hear, or even can verify them. Smell's fine to me.

Emotions are prejudiced; and even in my own concrete thoughts, I will
misidentify myself with another, and others with me. When I say "I",
I mean "you."

French and Spanish have impersonal pronouns: "on" and "se",
respectively. In English, they often come out as, "we", "they", and
"you" a lot, on occasion a "one", and sometimes, even, I.

 

[Grant Edwards]

I'm going to start marking my subjective comments with a star,
so it's clear what is emperically verifiable, and what is not.

It's a bad sign.

I've no idea what "it" refers to in the sentence above.

If you aren't keeping your thoughts to yourself, and thrashing
about the world for a peer, a social network, a support group,
or a community, then you missed the day in grammar school when
they were handing out smiles. But they're not handing them
out anymore.

To me, that appears to be a completely random homile, appropos
of nothing. Even as a homily, it doesn't really make any
sense.

Even on my emperical claims, I'm wrong 90% of the time. On
the subjective ones, I'm not only wrong that much, but no one
else want to hear, or even can verify them. Smell's fine to
me.

Emotions are prejudiced; and even in my own concrete thoughts,
I will misidentify myself with another, and others with me.
When I say "I", I mean "you."

I've no idea what your point is. I guess you're trying to
explain why your posts appear to be semi-random nonsense?

French and Spanish have impersonal pronouns: "on" and "se",
respectively. In English, they often come out as, "we",
"they", and "you" a lot, on occasion a "one", and sometimes,
even, I.

Perhaps you need somebody who's fluent in English to help you
proofread your posts? Or help you tune the Eliza program
you're using to generate them?

 

[Carsten Haese]

OH YEAH. Color me absent-minded. File under "No, they're not
compiled."

I'd ask what you're trying to say here if I had any hope of
understanding the answer. It is becoming clear to me that I am not
worthy of communicating with you.

Best regards,