The compatible application

Discussion in 'HTML' started by Brett, Oct 12, 2004.

  1. Brett

    Brett Guest

    Designing a website that is compatible with a wide range of browsers running
    on various platforms, taking into considering how antivirus and firewalls
    will interact with the browser is extremely challenging. I see these
    challenges only increasing as we move forward. Why is it that the browser
    has so many problems and an EXE (VB) app doesn't?

    They both run in one process yet the EXE:
    - has more functionality
    - isn't flagged by a firewall (assuming port 80 is used), antivirus, popup
    blocker
    - will work even if JS is turned off
    - no compatibilty issues with DHTML
    - is compatible overall with platform it is compiled on

    If I'm looking to created a very function application, would compiling an
    EXE be better than trying to use Flash, DHTML, JS, etc in a web browser (IE
    on Windows/Mac)? Meaning, I'll avoid all the issues browsers continuously
    run into. The EXE will still connect to an online database behind the
    scenes.

    Thanks,
    Brett
     
    Brett, Oct 12, 2004
    #1
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  2. Brett

    rf Guest

    Brett wrote

    <snip>

    > If I'm looking to created a very function application, would compiling an
    > EXE be better than trying to use Flash, DHTML, JS, etc in a web browser


    Are you expecting WWW users to use this exe instead of a browser or is this
    for a controlled intranet application. The answers differ very greatly.

    --
    Cheers
    Richard.
     
    rf, Oct 12, 2004
    #2
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  3. Brett

    brucie Guest

    brucie, Oct 12, 2004
    #3
  4. Brett

    Brett Guest

    "rf" <rf@.invalid> wrote in message
    news:7EGad.22751$...
    > Brett wrote
    >
    > <snip>
    >
    >> If I'm looking to created a very function application, would compiling an
    >> EXE be better than trying to use Flash, DHTML, JS, etc in a web browser

    >
    > Are you expecting WWW users to use this exe instead of a browser or is
    > this
    > for a controlled intranet application. The answers differ very greatly.


    The users are known and trained. They will be using it across the WWW.

    Brett
     
    Brett, Oct 12, 2004
    #4
  5. Brett

    SpaceGirl Guest

    Brett wrote:
    > Designing a website that is compatible with a wide range of browsers running
    > on various platforms, taking into considering how antivirus and firewalls
    > will interact with the browser is extremely challenging.


    No it's not. It's actually very straight forwards.


    > I see these
    > challenges only increasing as we move forward.


    It'll only get easier as browsers become more secure and users become
    more aware of how to maintain secure connections (whether they realise
    it or not).

    > Why is it that the browser
    > has so many problems and an EXE (VB) app doesn't?


    Popularity. Put a given .exe file to 1/2 the population of the planet
    and see how long it remains secure. Days I'd imagine.

    > They both run in one process yet the EXE:


    No, they dont. They are doing a lot of things; script engines, rendering
    engines (different versions of html, js, css, xml etc) and different
    protocols, different security models... and then all the stuff it has to
    do on the host platform (drawing the page via something like GDI+, or
    playing video via DirectX, for example).

    > - has more functionality
    > - isn't flagged by a firewall (assuming port 80 is used), antivirus, popup
    > blocker
    > - will work even if JS is turned off
    > - no compatibilty issues with DHTML
    > - is compatible overall with platform it is compiled on


    ? Application, or web browser?

    > If I'm looking to created a very function application, would compiling an
    > EXE be better than trying to use Flash, DHTML, JS, etc in a web browser (IE
    > on Windows/Mac)? Meaning, I'll avoid all the issues browsers continuously
    > run into. The EXE will still connect to an online database behind the
    > scenes.


    YOu'd have to write your own protocol stack, or write something that
    talks to TCP/IP. Unfortunatly TCP/IP is inherantly insecure. You have no
    choice - the Internet is TCP/IP. Without getting everyone on the planet,
    and all the hubs, servers and network cards in every machine everywhere
    being changed you HAVE to use this protocol or your traffic simply wont
    get beyond the end of your machines network / modem cable.

    > Thanks,
    > Brett



    --


    x theSpaceGirl (miranda)

    # lead designer @ http://www.dhnewmedia.com #
    # remove NO SPAM to email, or use form on website #
     
    SpaceGirl, Oct 12, 2004
    #5
  6. Brett

    Wÿrm Guest

    "Brett" <> wrote in message
    news:...
    <snip>
    > - isn't flagged by a firewall (assuming port 80 is used)


    If application on 1st run do not cause firewall (assuming software firewall)
    to notify something is trying to access port 80, that firewall is hopelessly
    broken and should not be used at all. Security such firewall would be
    offering would be par with broken condom...
     
    Wÿrm, Oct 12, 2004
    #6
  7. On Mon, 11 Oct 2004 21:53:33 -0400, Brett wrote:

    > The users are known and trained. They will be using it across the WWW.
    >
    > Brett


    You may want to consider writing a Java app. Java can be embedded in a
    browser or run as a separate stand-alone app, can be run on multiple
    platforms, and has all the functionality and programmatic richness of C++.

    --
    Jeffrey D. Silverman |
    Website | http://www.newtnotes.com

    Drop "PANTS" to reply by email
     
    Jeffrey Silverman, Oct 12, 2004
    #7
  8. Brett

    mbstevens Guest

    Brett wrote:

    > Designing a website that is compatible with a wide range of browsers
    > running on various platforms, taking into considering how antivirus and
    > firewalls
    > will interact with the browser is extremely challenging. I see these
    > challenges only increasing as we move forward. Why is it that the browser
    > has so many problems and an EXE (VB) app doesn't?
    >
    > They both run in one process yet the EXE:
    > - has more functionality
    > - isn't flagged by a firewall (assuming port 80 is used), antivirus, popup
    > blocker
    > - will work even if JS is turned off
    > - no compatibilty issues with DHTML
    > - is compatible overall with platform it is compiled on
    >
    > If I'm looking to created a very function application, would compiling an
    > EXE be better than trying to use Flash, DHTML, JS, etc in a web browser
    > (IE
    > on Windows/Mac)? Meaning, I'll avoid all the issues browsers continuously
    > run into. The EXE will still connect to an online database behind the
    > scenes.
    >
    > Thanks,
    > Brett
    >
    >

    SOAP/XML-RPC is worth investigating.
     
    mbstevens, Oct 12, 2004
    #8
  9. Brett

    Brett Guest

    "Jeffrey Silverman" <> wrote in message
    news:p...
    > On Mon, 11 Oct 2004 21:53:33 -0400, Brett wrote:
    >
    >> The users are known and trained. They will be using it across the WWW.
    >>
    >> Brett

    >
    > You may want to consider writing a Java app. Java can be embedded in a
    > browser or run as a separate stand-alone app, can be run on multiple
    > platforms, and has all the functionality and programmatic richness of C++.
    >
    > --
    > Jeffrey D. Silverman |
    > Website | http://www.newtnotes.com
    >
    > Drop "PANTS" to reply by email
    >

    I'm only considering a Windows based app. The Java app will take to long to
    develop and most of the users are Windows based.

    Thanks,
    Brett
     
    Brett, Oct 12, 2004
    #9
  10. Brett

    SpaceGirl Guest

    Jeffrey Silverman wrote:
    > On Mon, 11 Oct 2004 21:53:33 -0400, Brett wrote:
    >
    >
    >>The users are known and trained. They will be using it across the WWW.
    >>
    >>Brett

    >
    >
    > You may want to consider writing a Java app. Java can be embedded in a
    > browser or run as a separate stand-alone app, can be run on multiple
    > platforms, and has all the functionality and programmatic richness of C++.
    >


    Assuming the end user has Java installed. Which not many have.

    How about using Flash. You can embed data connections in it - use an XML
    backend, or jRun or any other J2EE backend to drive a secure
    multi-platform Flash XML front end. Most people have Flash. More than
    have Java by far.

    --


    x theSpaceGirl (miranda)

    # lead designer @ http://www.dhnewmedia.com #
    # remove NO SPAM to email, or use form on website #
     
    SpaceGirl, Oct 12, 2004
    #10
  11. Brett

    SpaceGirl Guest

    Brett wrote:
    > "Jeffrey Silverman" <> wrote in message
    > news:p...
    >
    >>On Mon, 11 Oct 2004 21:53:33 -0400, Brett wrote:
    >>
    >>
    >>>The users are known and trained. They will be using it across the WWW.
    >>>
    >>>Brett

    >>
    >>You may want to consider writing a Java app. Java can be embedded in a
    >>browser or run as a separate stand-alone app, can be run on multiple
    >>platforms, and has all the functionality and programmatic richness of C++.
    >>
    >>--
    >>Jeffrey D. Silverman |
    >> Website | http://www.newtnotes.com
    >>
    >>Drop "PANTS" to reply by email
    >>

    >
    > I'm only considering a Windows based app. The Java app will take to long to
    > develop and most of the users are Windows based.
    >
    > Thanks,
    > Brett
    >
    >


    Java is multi-platform - the platform is actually irrelevant. But you do
    need the runtime, which not many people bother installing these days.
    You could use Flash (either .swf embedded on a page, or stand-alone .exe
    file).

    --


    x theSpaceGirl (miranda)

    # lead designer @ http://www.dhnewmedia.com #
    # remove NO SPAM to email, or use form on website #
     
    SpaceGirl, Oct 12, 2004
    #11
  12. Brett

    rf Guest

    Brett

    > I'm only considering a Windows based app. The Java app will take to long

    to
    > develop and most of the users are Windows based.


    Hmmm.

    Java is not OS dependent. It is a browser plugin.

    --
    Cheers
    Richard.
     
    rf, Oct 12, 2004
    #12
  13. Brett

    SpaceGirl Guest

    rf wrote:
    > Brett
    >
    >
    >>I'm only considering a Windows based app. The Java app will take to long

    >
    > to
    >
    >>develop and most of the users are Windows based.

    >
    >
    > Hmmm.
    >
    > Java is not OS dependent. It is a browser plugin.
    >


    It's not even that... it's a virtual machine. It doesn't even need a
    browser. Several recent computer games have been written in Java too -
    they dont run in browser windows :)

    --


    x theSpaceGirl (miranda)

    # lead designer @ http://www.dhnewmedia.com #
    # remove NO SPAM to email, or use form on website #
     
    SpaceGirl, Oct 12, 2004
    #13
  14. Brett

    rf Guest

    SpaceGirl wrote

    > It's not even that... it's a virtual machine. It doesn't even need a
    > browser. Several recent computer games have been written in Java too -
    > they dont run in browser windows :)


    Correct.

    I forgot about that, never having played with java.

    I now recall that I have java as part of my development platforrm. IIRC it's
    called j++, along with C++, C#, and a few others I can't recall at the
    moment :)

    --
    Cheers
    Richard.
     
    rf, Oct 12, 2004
    #14
  15. Brett

    SpaceGirl Guest

    rf wrote:
    > SpaceGirl wrote
    >
    >
    >>It's not even that... it's a virtual machine. It doesn't even need a
    >>browser. Several recent computer games have been written in Java too -
    >>they dont run in browser windows :)

    >
    >
    > Correct.
    >
    > I forgot about that, never having played with java.
    >
    > I now recall that I have java as part of my development platforrm. IIRC it's
    > called j++, along with C++, C#, and a few others I can't recall at the
    > moment :)
    >


    Visual Studio.net? C#, C#.net, VB.net, ASP.net, J++, J++.net, C++, C...
    I've got the box next to my desk at home... hopeless really, since I
    hate programming, and the only languages I know are asp3 and javascript,
    and I'm working for a client who exclusively uses JSTL/JSP and Java
    applications :(

    --


    x theSpaceGirl (miranda)

    # lead designer @ http://www.dhnewmedia.com #
    # remove NO SPAM to email, or use form on website #
     
    SpaceGirl, Oct 12, 2004
    #15
  16. Brett

    rf Guest

    SpaceGirl quite rapidly wrote:

    > Visual Studio.net? C#, C#.net, VB.net, ASP.net, J++, J++.net, C++, C...


    Yep. That's the one.

    > I've got the box next to my desk at home...


    I don't have a box. I unfortunately have to subscribe to MSDN professional.
    Costs a thousand a year but I get every operating system and all of the
    development tools in unmarked cardboard sleves, posted to me monthly. Most
    of them I ignore.

    > hopeless really, since I
    > hate programming,


    All *real* programmers hate programming. It's part of the job description.

    > and the only languages I know are asp3 and javascript,


    Hmmm. I've lost count of the ones I know. I even think I could still read,
    and perhaps write <shudder>COBOL</shudder>. Hmmm. Come to think of it I
    think I used to *BE* a COBOL programmer about 25 years or so ago :-(

    You really should get into C#. It's much better than B flat :)

    > and I'm working for a client who exclusively uses JSTL/JSP and Java
    > applications :(


    The IT world would work much better if it was devoid of such things as
    clients...

    --
    Cheers
    Richard.
     
    rf, Oct 12, 2004
    #16
  17. Brett

    SpaceGirl Guest

    rf wrote:

    > Hmmm. I've lost count of the ones I know. I even think I could still read,
    > and perhaps write <shudder>COBOL</shudder>. Hmmm. Come to think of it I
    > think I used to *BE* a COBOL programmer about 25 years or so ago :-(
    >
    > You really should get into C#. It's much better than B flat :)


    I'm a designer though, not a programmer. I only code when I really have
    to, and then it takes me a while.

    >>and I'm working for a client who exclusively uses JSTL/JSP and Java
    >>applications :(

    >
    > The IT world would work much better if it was devoid of such things as
    > clients...


    That's for sure. I'd be a lot hungrier tho.

    --


    x theSpaceGirl (miranda)

    # lead designer @ http://www.dhnewmedia.com #
    # remove NO SPAM to email, or use form on website #
     
    SpaceGirl, Oct 12, 2004
    #17
  18. Brett

    rf Guest

    SpaceGirl wrote:
    > rf wrote:


    > > You really should get into C#. It's much better than B flat :)

    >
    > I'm a designer though, not a programmer. I only code when I really have
    > to, and then it takes me a while.


    What a refreshing viewpoint. A designer who really does not like to 'code'.

    If only I had a few such as you when I looked after the Big Computer in that
    past life. So many times the "designers" would insist that they knew how to
    do it themselves, the 'code' that is. It's astounding how well they were
    able to stuff it right up. Then again I made lots of $s fixing it all up
    for them :)

    These days I sit in my [own] little computer room watching the crows fly
    past, cutting code really hard and fast but trying really hard to think up
    the new Great Design.

    Hey, maybe we could colaborate :)

    --
    Cheers
    Richard.
     
    rf, Oct 12, 2004
    #18
  19. On Tue, 12 Oct 2004 09:21:58 -0400, Brett wrote:

    > I'm only considering a Windows based app. The Java app will take to long to
    > develop and most of the users are Windows based.
    >
    > Thanks,
    > Brett


    A Java app should take no longer to develop than a C++-based .exe
    application.

    A Java app will work on windows AND every other platform/OS in the real
    world.

    Thus, a Java app *is* a Windows-based app. Running a java application is
    indistinguishable from running a native .exe application. (With minor
    exceptions as far as the GUI/interface is concerned -- but these
    exceptions can be eliminated)

    How many people already have the Java runtime installed? Well, maybe it
    doesn't matter because everyone who needs to run this app will install it.

    Of course, all of this is moot if (1) you have no Java programmer
    available and (2) you *do* have a C++ programmer. If these are true, just
    do it in C++, I guess.

    later...

    --
    Jeffrey D. Silverman |
    Website | http://www.newtnotes.com

    Drop "PANTS" to reply by email
     
    Jeffrey Silverman, Oct 12, 2004
    #19
  20. Brett

    Spartanicus Guest

    Jeffrey Silverman <> wrote:

    >A Java app will work on windows AND every other platform/OS in the real
    >world.


    A Java app *may* work, client side Java support is not great, it may be
    present on the client system but not enabled in the UA. I for one refuse
    to allow Java on my system.

    --
    Spartanicus
     
    Spartanicus, Oct 12, 2004
    #20
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