The Demise of the Art of Programming

Discussion in 'ASP .Net' started by Kevin Spencer, Mar 16, 2005.

  1. Is it just me, or am I really observing a trend away from analysis and
    probem-solving amongst programmers? Let me be more specific:

    It seems that every day, in greater numbers, people are coming to these
    programming newsgroups and asking for ready-made solutions to fairly simple
    programming problems. They either want someone to write code for them, or
    point them to a ready-made chunk of software that does what they need to do.

    Now, I'm all for productivity, and have all the latest and greatest
    programming productivity tools. From time to time I do buy third-party
    components, such as a managed Zip extractor. Yes, I could build my own Zip
    extractor. The WinZip site publishes their algorithms. But it's quite
    low-level stuff, and it would take me a week to write my own, whereas I
    could buy one for $50.00 and get on to more important things. That seems
    reasonable to me. If it is cost that is truly the issue, third-party
    components are fine.

    On the other hand, third-party components are only as good as their
    designers. When you use a third-party component you are creating a form of
    external dependency, over which you have little or no control. So, all other
    things being equal, I would tend to solve my own problems and build my own
    solutions.

    But, for example, asking for someone to write a snippet of JavaScript...
    well, that's just plain lazy IMHO. In the development tools that Microsoft
    manufactures, there are enough tools and technology to build your own
    Operating System. It is as if Microsoft has given you every tool you could
    possibly need, and enough lumber to build the Hoover Dam, but if you need to
    build a dog house, and you've never built one before, by golly, you'll just
    go out and buy one. Now, how does that make you a better carpenter? And what
    justifies the expense of buying a dog house when you already have all the
    tools and lumber to build one? Especially when it would cost you the same
    amount of money to build one (in man-hours) as it takes to buy one? At least
    if you build it you've enhanced your capabilites somewhat. And if you need
    to add air-conditioning to the existing dog house, well, you're all prepared
    to do so, since you built it to begin with.

    I mean, whatever happened to the ethic that programmers should study their
    trade every day with diligence? I know I do. I probably spend an average of
    an hour a day studying my trade. Any good developer should, it seems to me.

    So, what's up with all this "just give me the codes (and stuff)" attitude?
    Is it just me, or does this bother anybody else? Am I way off track here?

    --
    HTH,

    Kevin Spencer
    Microsoft MVP
    ..Net Developer
    What You Seek Is What You Get.
     
    Kevin Spencer, Mar 16, 2005
    #1
    1. Advertising

  2. Could you give me the code to come up with a good reply?

    Anyways, yeah, I agree. Not that I really answer that many questions, but I
    try and leave things out of my answers hoping that people will just google
    for the missing information because it would be faster than asking for more
    info. It never works.

    The really sad thing is that it's not just limited to code-monkeys, a lot of
    people are asking high level architecture questions and expecting magic
    answers.
     
    =?Utf-8?B?U2NvdHQgU2ltb25z?=, Mar 16, 2005
    #2
    1. Advertising

  3. My take: As long as there are roads, there will be people to ask for
    directions.

    Kevin, while I see your point, I guess it is elitist to think of any problem
    as small. In my opinion, people ask because they don't have an idea to
    continue (whatever the reason maybe -- pressure, lack of education, etc.),
    and not because they are lazy.

    As per "programming as trade" -- the problem lies in the fact that most
    developers now learn their trade on the job. I guess people need to
    recognize this trend, and adapt accordingly. If anything, there are
    opportunities here -- for authors of books, web sites, etc.

    --
    Manohar Kamath
    Editor, .netWire
    www.dotnetwire.com


    "Kevin Spencer" <> wrote in message
    news:...
    > Is it just me, or am I really observing a trend away from analysis and
    > probem-solving amongst programmers? Let me be more specific:
    >
    > It seems that every day, in greater numbers, people are coming to these
    > programming newsgroups and asking for ready-made solutions to fairly

    simple
    > programming problems. They either want someone to write code for them, or
    > point them to a ready-made chunk of software that does what they need to

    do.
    >
    > Now, I'm all for productivity, and have all the latest and greatest
    > programming productivity tools. From time to time I do buy third-party
    > components, such as a managed Zip extractor. Yes, I could build my own Zip
    > extractor. The WinZip site publishes their algorithms. But it's quite
    > low-level stuff, and it would take me a week to write my own, whereas I
    > could buy one for $50.00 and get on to more important things. That seems
    > reasonable to me. If it is cost that is truly the issue, third-party
    > components are fine.
    >
    > On the other hand, third-party components are only as good as their
    > designers. When you use a third-party component you are creating a form of
    > external dependency, over which you have little or no control. So, all

    other
    > things being equal, I would tend to solve my own problems and build my own
    > solutions.
    >
    > But, for example, asking for someone to write a snippet of JavaScript...
    > well, that's just plain lazy IMHO. In the development tools that Microsoft
    > manufactures, there are enough tools and technology to build your own
    > Operating System. It is as if Microsoft has given you every tool you could
    > possibly need, and enough lumber to build the Hoover Dam, but if you need

    to
    > build a dog house, and you've never built one before, by golly, you'll

    just
    > go out and buy one. Now, how does that make you a better carpenter? And

    what
    > justifies the expense of buying a dog house when you already have all the
    > tools and lumber to build one? Especially when it would cost you the same
    > amount of money to build one (in man-hours) as it takes to buy one? At

    least
    > if you build it you've enhanced your capabilites somewhat. And if you need
    > to add air-conditioning to the existing dog house, well, you're all

    prepared
    > to do so, since you built it to begin with.
    >
    > I mean, whatever happened to the ethic that programmers should study their
    > trade every day with diligence? I know I do. I probably spend an average

    of
    > an hour a day studying my trade. Any good developer should, it seems to

    me.
    >
    > So, what's up with all this "just give me the codes (and stuff)" attitude?
    > Is it just me, or does this bother anybody else? Am I way off track here?
    >
    > --
    > HTH,
    >
    > Kevin Spencer
    > Microsoft MVP
    > .Net Developer
    > What You Seek Is What You Get.
    >
    >
     
    Manohar Kamath, Mar 16, 2005
    #3
  4. Hi Manohar,

    > Kevin, while I see your point, I guess it is elitist to think of any
    > problem
    > as small. In my opinion, people ask because they don't have an idea to
    > continue (whatever the reason maybe -- pressure, lack of education, etc.),
    > and not because they are lazy.


    Everyone has problems they haven't encountered before, and everyone needs
    help from time to time. What I was describing as "lazy" is the tendancy to
    ask for a solution, rather than to ask for direction. Direction is basically
    pointing someone in the direction they need to look to solve their problem.
    IOW, direction is not solving the problem for the individual, but enabling
    the individual to solve their own problem. It seems that there are many more
    developers out there looking for ready-made solutions than help in solving
    their problems. Take a look at many of the longer-running threads in this
    newsgroup, and you should see what I'm talking about. People give
    directions, and the person who asks is not satisfied, or doesn't understand.
    Instead of probing further for themselves, they come back and continue
    prodding until someone gives them a ready-made solution, or writes their
    code for them. Afterwards, the original person has their solution, but they
    have no understanding of it. And they are no better or more independent as a
    result. They have learned nothing. The shame of it is, I get the impression
    many don't WANT to learn.

    God help me if my career should ever become so - mechanical!

    --
    HTH,

    Kevin Spencer
    Microsoft MVP
    ..Net Developer
    What You Seek Is What You Get.

    "Manohar Kamath" <> wrote in message
    news:%...
    > My take: As long as there are roads, there will be people to ask for
    > directions.
    >
    > Kevin, while I see your point, I guess it is elitist to think of any
    > problem
    > as small. In my opinion, people ask because they don't have an idea to
    > continue (whatever the reason maybe -- pressure, lack of education, etc.),
    > and not because they are lazy.
    >
    > As per "programming as trade" -- the problem lies in the fact that most
    > developers now learn their trade on the job. I guess people need to
    > recognize this trend, and adapt accordingly. If anything, there are
    > opportunities here -- for authors of books, web sites, etc.
    >
    > --
    > Manohar Kamath
    > Editor, .netWire
    > www.dotnetwire.com
    >
    >
    > "Kevin Spencer" <> wrote in message
    > news:...
    >> Is it just me, or am I really observing a trend away from analysis and
    >> probem-solving amongst programmers? Let me be more specific:
    >>
    >> It seems that every day, in greater numbers, people are coming to these
    >> programming newsgroups and asking for ready-made solutions to fairly

    > simple
    >> programming problems. They either want someone to write code for them, or
    >> point them to a ready-made chunk of software that does what they need to

    > do.
    >>
    >> Now, I'm all for productivity, and have all the latest and greatest
    >> programming productivity tools. From time to time I do buy third-party
    >> components, such as a managed Zip extractor. Yes, I could build my own
    >> Zip
    >> extractor. The WinZip site publishes their algorithms. But it's quite
    >> low-level stuff, and it would take me a week to write my own, whereas I
    >> could buy one for $50.00 and get on to more important things. That seems
    >> reasonable to me. If it is cost that is truly the issue, third-party
    >> components are fine.
    >>
    >> On the other hand, third-party components are only as good as their
    >> designers. When you use a third-party component you are creating a form
    >> of
    >> external dependency, over which you have little or no control. So, all

    > other
    >> things being equal, I would tend to solve my own problems and build my
    >> own
    >> solutions.
    >>
    >> But, for example, asking for someone to write a snippet of JavaScript...
    >> well, that's just plain lazy IMHO. In the development tools that
    >> Microsoft
    >> manufactures, there are enough tools and technology to build your own
    >> Operating System. It is as if Microsoft has given you every tool you
    >> could
    >> possibly need, and enough lumber to build the Hoover Dam, but if you need

    > to
    >> build a dog house, and you've never built one before, by golly, you'll

    > just
    >> go out and buy one. Now, how does that make you a better carpenter? And

    > what
    >> justifies the expense of buying a dog house when you already have all the
    >> tools and lumber to build one? Especially when it would cost you the same
    >> amount of money to build one (in man-hours) as it takes to buy one? At

    > least
    >> if you build it you've enhanced your capabilites somewhat. And if you
    >> need
    >> to add air-conditioning to the existing dog house, well, you're all

    > prepared
    >> to do so, since you built it to begin with.
    >>
    >> I mean, whatever happened to the ethic that programmers should study
    >> their
    >> trade every day with diligence? I know I do. I probably spend an average

    > of
    >> an hour a day studying my trade. Any good developer should, it seems to

    > me.
    >>
    >> So, what's up with all this "just give me the codes (and stuff)"
    >> attitude?
    >> Is it just me, or does this bother anybody else? Am I way off track here?
    >>
    >> --
    >> HTH,
    >>
    >> Kevin Spencer
    >> Microsoft MVP
    >> .Net Developer
    >> What You Seek Is What You Get.
    >>
    >>

    >
    >
     
    Kevin Spencer, Mar 16, 2005
    #4
  5. Kevin Spencer

    Matt Berther Guest

    Hello Kevin,

    Very well said.

    As with anything, it has to do with the level that the "bar" is at. People
    generally tend to reach only as high as that bar is set. In order to build
    and grow teams, that bar has to be constantly raised, forcing the individual
    to either 1) do what it takes to keep up or 2) leave the organization.

    Few people tend to constantly exceed the bar, however those that do are among
    the best in the business. They are this way because they take it upon themselves
    to learn and improve themselves. As long as people are content to just draw
    a paycheck and not further themselves or their craft, we will continue to
    see the problem you describe.

    --
    Matt Berther
    http://www.mattberther.com

    > Is it just me, or am I really observing a trend away from analysis and
    > probem-solving amongst programmers? Let me be more specific:
    >
    > It seems that every day, in greater numbers, people are coming to
    > these programming newsgroups and asking for ready-made solutions to
    > fairly simple programming problems. They either want someone to write
    > code for them, or point them to a ready-made chunk of software that
    > does what they need to do.
    >
    > Now, I'm all for productivity, and have all the latest and greatest
    > programming productivity tools. From time to time I do buy third-party
    > components, such as a managed Zip extractor. Yes, I could build my own
    > Zip extractor. The WinZip site publishes their algorithms. But it's
    > quite low-level stuff, and it would take me a week to write my own,
    > whereas I could buy one for $50.00 and get on to more important
    > things. That seems reasonable to me. If it is cost that is truly the
    > issue, third-party components are fine.
    >
    > On the other hand, third-party components are only as good as their
    > designers. When you use a third-party component you are creating a
    > form of external dependency, over which you have little or no control.
    > So, all other things being equal, I would tend to solve my own
    > problems and build my own solutions.
    >
    > But, for example, asking for someone to write a snippet of
    > JavaScript... well, that's just plain lazy IMHO. In the development
    > tools that Microsoft manufactures, there are enough tools and
    > technology to build your own Operating System. It is as if Microsoft
    > has given you every tool you could possibly need, and enough lumber to
    > build the Hoover Dam, but if you need to build a dog house, and you've
    > never built one before, by golly, you'll just go out and buy one. Now,
    > how does that make you a better carpenter? And what justifies the
    > expense of buying a dog house when you already have all the tools and
    > lumber to build one? Especially when it would cost you the same amount
    > of money to build one (in man-hours) as it takes to buy one? At least
    > if you build it you've enhanced your capabilites somewhat. And if you
    > need to add air-conditioning to the existing dog house, well, you're
    > all prepared to do so, since you built it to begin with.
    >
    > I mean, whatever happened to the ethic that programmers should study
    > their trade every day with diligence? I know I do. I probably spend an
    > average of an hour a day studying my trade. Any good developer should,
    > it seems to me.
    >
    > So, what's up with all this "just give me the codes (and stuff)"
    > attitude? Is it just me, or does this bother anybody else? Am I way
    > off track here?
    >
    > Kevin Spencer
    > Microsoft MVP
    > .Net Developer
    > What You Seek Is What You Get.
     
    Matt Berther, Mar 16, 2005
    #5
  6. Kevin Spencer

    Karl Seguin Guest

    We both spend enough time in here to know that a lot of what you say is
    true. Sometimes it's a real downer, sometimes it seems like just a few bad
    apples spoiling it for the rest...I'm sure the number of people I've helped
    once (and only once) in this newsgroup exceeds the number of people I've
    helped more than once. For me, this implies that most people are giving it
    an honest go, which (for now) is enough for me to keep helping out. Maybe i
    haven't been around long enough, but I imagine this has always been true:
    some people are "lazy", some aren't. I don't think there are more lazy
    programmes today than there were 5 years ago....and if there are, I wonder
    if .Net's harsh learning curve has anything to do with it...

    --
    MY ASP.Net tutorials
    http://www.openmymind.net/ - New and Improved (yes, the popup is
    annoying)
    http://www.openmymind.net/faq.aspx - unofficial newsgroup FAQ (more to
    come!)
    "Kevin Spencer" <> wrote in message
    news:...
    > Is it just me, or am I really observing a trend away from analysis and
    > probem-solving amongst programmers? Let me be more specific:
    >
    > It seems that every day, in greater numbers, people are coming to these
    > programming newsgroups and asking for ready-made solutions to fairly

    simple
    > programming problems. They either want someone to write code for them, or
    > point them to a ready-made chunk of software that does what they need to

    do.
    >
    > Now, I'm all for productivity, and have all the latest and greatest
    > programming productivity tools. From time to time I do buy third-party
    > components, such as a managed Zip extractor. Yes, I could build my own Zip
    > extractor. The WinZip site publishes their algorithms. But it's quite
    > low-level stuff, and it would take me a week to write my own, whereas I
    > could buy one for $50.00 and get on to more important things. That seems
    > reasonable to me. If it is cost that is truly the issue, third-party
    > components are fine.
    >
    > On the other hand, third-party components are only as good as their
    > designers. When you use a third-party component you are creating a form of
    > external dependency, over which you have little or no control. So, all

    other
    > things being equal, I would tend to solve my own problems and build my own
    > solutions.
    >
    > But, for example, asking for someone to write a snippet of JavaScript...
    > well, that's just plain lazy IMHO. In the development tools that Microsoft
    > manufactures, there are enough tools and technology to build your own
    > Operating System. It is as if Microsoft has given you every tool you could
    > possibly need, and enough lumber to build the Hoover Dam, but if you need

    to
    > build a dog house, and you've never built one before, by golly, you'll

    just
    > go out and buy one. Now, how does that make you a better carpenter? And

    what
    > justifies the expense of buying a dog house when you already have all the
    > tools and lumber to build one? Especially when it would cost you the same
    > amount of money to build one (in man-hours) as it takes to buy one? At

    least
    > if you build it you've enhanced your capabilites somewhat. And if you need
    > to add air-conditioning to the existing dog house, well, you're all

    prepared
    > to do so, since you built it to begin with.
    >
    > I mean, whatever happened to the ethic that programmers should study their
    > trade every day with diligence? I know I do. I probably spend an average

    of
    > an hour a day studying my trade. Any good developer should, it seems to

    me.
    >
    > So, what's up with all this "just give me the codes (and stuff)" attitude?
    > Is it just me, or does this bother anybody else? Am I way off track here?
    >
    > --
    > HTH,
    >
    > Kevin Spencer
    > Microsoft MVP
    > .Net Developer
    > What You Seek Is What You Get.
    >
    >
     
    Karl Seguin, Mar 16, 2005
    #6
  7. re:
    >What I was describing as "lazy" is the tendancy to ask for a solution,
    >rather than to ask for direction.


    That is a direct result of the way these public newsgroups
    have bee defined : as a place to get solutions from peers.

    "Getting solutions" is interpreted as "hand me
    ready-made solutions to the questions I'm asking".

    That means asking for code, instead of guidance.

    How many times have you seen questions like :

    "I want to do the same thing Hotmail does. Send me the code."

    My approach :
    If it's a simple thing requested, I'll provide sample code.

    If understanding the question's anser entails more than that,
    pointing the way to online articles which present solutions
    to the question will do.

    If the question goes beyond what a post can provide,
    or an article can provide, I'll point the way to online
    documentation or books.

    We should strive to have the poster of a question *understand*
    why the solution works as it does, instead of just mechanically
    cutting and pasting from the sample to his/her code.

    And, speaking of his/her, where are the lady programmers ?
    I don't think I've seen too many posts by women here.

    That's something else we should be concerned with.

    ;-)



    Juan T. Llibre
    ASP.NET MVP
    http://asp.net.do/foros/
    Foros de ASP.NET en Español
    Ven, y hablemos de ASP.NET...
    ======================

    "Kevin Spencer" <> wrote in message
    news:...
    > Hi Manohar,
    >
    >> Kevin, while I see your point, I guess it is elitist to think of any
    >> problem
    >> as small. In my opinion, people ask because they don't have an idea to
    >> continue (whatever the reason maybe -- pressure, lack of education,
    >> etc.),
    >> and not because they are lazy.

    >
    > Everyone has problems they haven't encountered before, and everyone needs
    > help from time to time. What I was describing as "lazy" is the tendancy to
    > ask for a solution, rather than to ask for direction. Direction is
    > basically pointing someone in the direction they need to look to solve
    > their problem. IOW, direction is not solving the problem for the
    > individual, but enabling the individual to solve their own problem. It
    > seems that there are many more developers out there looking for ready-made
    > solutions than help in solving their problems. Take a look at many of the
    > longer-running threads in this newsgroup, and you should see what I'm
    > talking about. People give directions, and the person who asks is not
    > satisfied, or doesn't understand. Instead of probing further for
    > themselves, they come back and continue prodding until someone gives them
    > a ready-made solution, or writes their code for them. Afterwards, the
    > original person has their solution, but they have no understanding of it.
    > And they are no better or more independent as a result. They have learned
    > nothing. The shame of it is, I get the impression many don't WANT to
    > learn.
    >
    > God help me if my career should ever become so - mechanical!
    >
    > --
    > HTH,
    >
    > Kevin Spencer
    > Microsoft MVP
    > .Net Developer
    > What You Seek Is What You Get.
    >
    > "Manohar Kamath" <> wrote in message
    > news:%...
    >> My take: As long as there are roads, there will be people to ask for
    >> directions.
    >>
    >> Kevin, while I see your point, I guess it is elitist to think of any
    >> problem
    >> as small. In my opinion, people ask because they don't have an idea to
    >> continue (whatever the reason maybe -- pressure, lack of education,
    >> etc.),
    >> and not because they are lazy.
    >>
    >> As per "programming as trade" -- the problem lies in the fact that most
    >> developers now learn their trade on the job. I guess people need to
    >> recognize this trend, and adapt accordingly. If anything, there are
    >> opportunities here -- for authors of books, web sites, etc.
    >>
    >> --
    >> Manohar Kamath
    >> Editor, .netWire
    >> www.dotnetwire.com
    >>
    >>
    >> "Kevin Spencer" <> wrote in message
    >> news:...
    >>> Is it just me, or am I really observing a trend away from analysis and
    >>> probem-solving amongst programmers? Let me be more specific:
    >>>
    >>> It seems that every day, in greater numbers, people are coming to these
    >>> programming newsgroups and asking for ready-made solutions to fairly

    >> simple
    >>> programming problems. They either want someone to write code for them,
    >>> or
    >>> point them to a ready-made chunk of software that does what they need to

    >> do.
    >>>
    >>> Now, I'm all for productivity, and have all the latest and greatest
    >>> programming productivity tools. From time to time I do buy third-party
    >>> components, such as a managed Zip extractor. Yes, I could build my own
    >>> Zip
    >>> extractor. The WinZip site publishes their algorithms. But it's quite
    >>> low-level stuff, and it would take me a week to write my own, whereas I
    >>> could buy one for $50.00 and get on to more important things. That seems
    >>> reasonable to me. If it is cost that is truly the issue, third-party
    >>> components are fine.
    >>>
    >>> On the other hand, third-party components are only as good as their
    >>> designers. When you use a third-party component you are creating a form
    >>> of
    >>> external dependency, over which you have little or no control. So, all

    >> other
    >>> things being equal, I would tend to solve my own problems and build my
    >>> own
    >>> solutions.
    >>>
    >>> But, for example, asking for someone to write a snippet of JavaScript...
    >>> well, that's just plain lazy IMHO. In the development tools that
    >>> Microsoft
    >>> manufactures, there are enough tools and technology to build your own
    >>> Operating System. It is as if Microsoft has given you every tool you
    >>> could
    >>> possibly need, and enough lumber to build the Hoover Dam, but if you
    >>> need

    >> to
    >>> build a dog house, and you've never built one before, by golly, you'll

    >> just
    >>> go out and buy one. Now, how does that make you a better carpenter? And

    >> what
    >>> justifies the expense of buying a dog house when you already have all
    >>> the
    >>> tools and lumber to build one? Especially when it would cost you the
    >>> same
    >>> amount of money to build one (in man-hours) as it takes to buy one? At

    >> least
    >>> if you build it you've enhanced your capabilites somewhat. And if you
    >>> need
    >>> to add air-conditioning to the existing dog house, well, you're all

    >> prepared
    >>> to do so, since you built it to begin with.
    >>>
    >>> I mean, whatever happened to the ethic that programmers should study
    >>> their
    >>> trade every day with diligence? I know I do. I probably spend an average

    >> of
    >>> an hour a day studying my trade. Any good developer should, it seems to

    >> me.
    >>>
    >>> So, what's up with all this "just give me the codes (and stuff)"
    >>> attitude?
    >>> Is it just me, or does this bother anybody else? Am I way off track
    >>> here?
    >>>
    >>> --
    >>> HTH,
    >>>
    >>> Kevin Spencer
    >>> Microsoft MVP
    >>> .Net Developer
    >>> What You Seek Is What You Get.
    >>>
    >>>

    >>
    >>

    >
    >
     
    Juan T. Llibre, Mar 16, 2005
    #7
  8. Hi Juan,

    > "Getting solutions" is interpreted as "hand me
    > ready-made solutions to the questions I'm asking".
    >
    > That means asking for code, instead of guidance.


    That might be true of newsgroups for Windows, Office, or other end-user
    software. Who would expect an end-user to understand or care how their
    software works? My wife doesn't understand how a car works, but she can
    drive one as well as anyone. On the other hand, the engineers who build cars
    ought to know both how and why everything in the car works. I'm sure you
    wouldn't want to drive in one that was engineereed by someone without
    knowledge of what he/she was doing, right?

    A programmer is a technician. Therefore, a programmer ought to know how
    their software works. And if so, they should not need anything more than a
    little guidance, a shove in the right direction, etc. I certainly don't want
    or expect more than that when I have a new issue to solve.

    > We should strive to have the poster of a question *understand*
    > why the solution works as it does, instead of just mechanically
    > cutting and pasting from the sample to his/her code.


    Absolutely!

    > And, speaking of his/her, where are the lady programmers ?
    > I don't think I've seen too many posts by women here.
    >
    > That's something else we should be concerned with.


    That I can't agree with. For one thing, I'm not a woman. So, it's none of my
    business what a given woman decides to do with her life. Beyond that, it's
    none of my business what ANYONE decides to do with his/her life (except for
    my children, and only up to a point). I have known a few female programmers.
    The fact that few women decide to become programmers is not relevant, except
    to them. I have enough responsibility figuring out what I should do next!

    Who knows? Maybe that professor at Harvard had something...

    --
    Maybe not,

    Kevin Spencer
    Microsoft MVP
    ..Net Developer
    What You Seek Is What You Get.

    "Juan T. Llibre" <> wrote in message
    news:%...
    > re:
    >>What I was describing as "lazy" is the tendancy to ask for a solution,
    >>rather than to ask for direction.

    >
    > That is a direct result of the way these public newsgroups
    > have bee defined : as a place to get solutions from peers.
    >
    > "Getting solutions" is interpreted as "hand me
    > ready-made solutions to the questions I'm asking".
    >
    > That means asking for code, instead of guidance.
    >
    > How many times have you seen questions like :
    >
    > "I want to do the same thing Hotmail does. Send me the code."
    >
    > My approach :
    > If it's a simple thing requested, I'll provide sample code.
    >
    > If understanding the question's anser entails more than that,
    > pointing the way to online articles which present solutions
    > to the question will do.
    >
    > If the question goes beyond what a post can provide,
    > or an article can provide, I'll point the way to online
    > documentation or books.
    >
    > We should strive to have the poster of a question *understand*
    > why the solution works as it does, instead of just mechanically
    > cutting and pasting from the sample to his/her code.
    >
    > And, speaking of his/her, where are the lady programmers ?
    > I don't think I've seen too many posts by women here.
    >
    > That's something else we should be concerned with.
    >
    > ;-)
    >
    >
    >
    > Juan T. Llibre
    > ASP.NET MVP
    > http://asp.net.do/foros/
    > Foros de ASP.NET en Español
    > Ven, y hablemos de ASP.NET...
    > ======================
    >
    > "Kevin Spencer" <> wrote in message
    > news:...
    >> Hi Manohar,
    >>
    >>> Kevin, while I see your point, I guess it is elitist to think of any
    >>> problem
    >>> as small. In my opinion, people ask because they don't have an idea to
    >>> continue (whatever the reason maybe -- pressure, lack of education,
    >>> etc.),
    >>> and not because they are lazy.

    >>
    >> Everyone has problems they haven't encountered before, and everyone needs
    >> help from time to time. What I was describing as "lazy" is the tendancy
    >> to ask for a solution, rather than to ask for direction. Direction is
    >> basically pointing someone in the direction they need to look to solve
    >> their problem. IOW, direction is not solving the problem for the
    >> individual, but enabling the individual to solve their own problem. It
    >> seems that there are many more developers out there looking for
    >> ready-made solutions than help in solving their problems. Take a look at
    >> many of the longer-running threads in this newsgroup, and you should see
    >> what I'm talking about. People give directions, and the person who asks
    >> is not satisfied, or doesn't understand. Instead of probing further for
    >> themselves, they come back and continue prodding until someone gives them
    >> a ready-made solution, or writes their code for them. Afterwards, the
    >> original person has their solution, but they have no understanding of it.
    >> And they are no better or more independent as a result. They have learned
    >> nothing. The shame of it is, I get the impression many don't WANT to
    >> learn.
    >>
    >> God help me if my career should ever become so - mechanical!
    >>
    >> --
    >> HTH,
    >>
    >> Kevin Spencer
    >> Microsoft MVP
    >> .Net Developer
    >> What You Seek Is What You Get.
    >>
    >> "Manohar Kamath" <> wrote in message
    >> news:%...
    >>> My take: As long as there are roads, there will be people to ask for
    >>> directions.
    >>>
    >>> Kevin, while I see your point, I guess it is elitist to think of any
    >>> problem
    >>> as small. In my opinion, people ask because they don't have an idea to
    >>> continue (whatever the reason maybe -- pressure, lack of education,
    >>> etc.),
    >>> and not because they are lazy.
    >>>
    >>> As per "programming as trade" -- the problem lies in the fact that most
    >>> developers now learn their trade on the job. I guess people need to
    >>> recognize this trend, and adapt accordingly. If anything, there are
    >>> opportunities here -- for authors of books, web sites, etc.
    >>>
    >>> --
    >>> Manohar Kamath
    >>> Editor, .netWire
    >>> www.dotnetwire.com
    >>>
    >>>
    >>> "Kevin Spencer" <> wrote in message
    >>> news:...
    >>>> Is it just me, or am I really observing a trend away from analysis and
    >>>> probem-solving amongst programmers? Let me be more specific:
    >>>>
    >>>> It seems that every day, in greater numbers, people are coming to these
    >>>> programming newsgroups and asking for ready-made solutions to fairly
    >>> simple
    >>>> programming problems. They either want someone to write code for them,
    >>>> or
    >>>> point them to a ready-made chunk of software that does what they need
    >>>> to
    >>> do.
    >>>>
    >>>> Now, I'm all for productivity, and have all the latest and greatest
    >>>> programming productivity tools. From time to time I do buy third-party
    >>>> components, such as a managed Zip extractor. Yes, I could build my own
    >>>> Zip
    >>>> extractor. The WinZip site publishes their algorithms. But it's quite
    >>>> low-level stuff, and it would take me a week to write my own, whereas I
    >>>> could buy one for $50.00 and get on to more important things. That
    >>>> seems
    >>>> reasonable to me. If it is cost that is truly the issue, third-party
    >>>> components are fine.
    >>>>
    >>>> On the other hand, third-party components are only as good as their
    >>>> designers. When you use a third-party component you are creating a form
    >>>> of
    >>>> external dependency, over which you have little or no control. So, all
    >>> other
    >>>> things being equal, I would tend to solve my own problems and build my
    >>>> own
    >>>> solutions.
    >>>>
    >>>> But, for example, asking for someone to write a snippet of
    >>>> JavaScript...
    >>>> well, that's just plain lazy IMHO. In the development tools that
    >>>> Microsoft
    >>>> manufactures, there are enough tools and technology to build your own
    >>>> Operating System. It is as if Microsoft has given you every tool you
    >>>> could
    >>>> possibly need, and enough lumber to build the Hoover Dam, but if you
    >>>> need
    >>> to
    >>>> build a dog house, and you've never built one before, by golly, you'll
    >>> just
    >>>> go out and buy one. Now, how does that make you a better carpenter? And
    >>> what
    >>>> justifies the expense of buying a dog house when you already have all
    >>>> the
    >>>> tools and lumber to build one? Especially when it would cost you the
    >>>> same
    >>>> amount of money to build one (in man-hours) as it takes to buy one? At
    >>> least
    >>>> if you build it you've enhanced your capabilites somewhat. And if you
    >>>> need
    >>>> to add air-conditioning to the existing dog house, well, you're all
    >>> prepared
    >>>> to do so, since you built it to begin with.
    >>>>
    >>>> I mean, whatever happened to the ethic that programmers should study
    >>>> their
    >>>> trade every day with diligence? I know I do. I probably spend an
    >>>> average
    >>> of
    >>>> an hour a day studying my trade. Any good developer should, it seems to
    >>> me.
    >>>>
    >>>> So, what's up with all this "just give me the codes (and stuff)"
    >>>> attitude?
    >>>> Is it just me, or does this bother anybody else? Am I way off track
    >>>> here?
    >>>>
    >>>> --
    >>>> HTH,
    >>>>
    >>>> Kevin Spencer
    >>>> Microsoft MVP
    >>>> .Net Developer
    >>>> What You Seek Is What You Get.
    >>>>
    >>>>
    >>>
    >>>

    >>
    >>

    >
    >
     
    Kevin Spencer, Mar 16, 2005
    #8
  9. Hi Karl,

    > I don't think there are more lazy
    > programmes today than there were 5 years ago....and if there are, I wonder
    > if .Net's harsh learning curve has anything to do with it...


    Interesting observation! I have been fostering high hopes that .Net's harsh
    learning curve might turn some of these shade-tree programmers into the real
    thing! But of course, only time will tell.

    For anyone that thinks I'm being somehow "elitist," you should realize that
    much of my frustration comes not from answering questions in newsgroups, but
    also from personal experience. I have had to work a few too many times with
    legacy code that was nightmarishly bad. About the best that could be said
    for it was that it did accomplish its requirements. On the other hand, it
    was poorly written, slow, full of hacks, and completely inextensible as it
    stood. Unfortunately, programming is one of those businesses where you DO
    get what you pay for, in terms of talent. If you hire cheap talent, it will
    cost you much more in the long run.

    --
    HTH,

    Kevin Spencer
    Microsoft MVP
    ..Net Developer
    What You Seek Is What You Get.

    "Karl Seguin" <karl REMOVE @ REMOVE openmymind REMOVEMETOO . ANDME net>
    wrote in message news:...
    > We both spend enough time in here to know that a lot of what you say is
    > true. Sometimes it's a real downer, sometimes it seems like just a few
    > bad
    > apples spoiling it for the rest...I'm sure the number of people I've
    > helped
    > once (and only once) in this newsgroup exceeds the number of people I've
    > helped more than once. For me, this implies that most people are giving
    > it
    > an honest go, which (for now) is enough for me to keep helping out. Maybe
    > i
    > haven't been around long enough, but I imagine this has always been true:
    > some people are "lazy", some aren't. I don't think there are more lazy
    > programmes today than there were 5 years ago....and if there are, I wonder
    > if .Net's harsh learning curve has anything to do with it...
    >
    > --
    > MY ASP.Net tutorials
    > http://www.openmymind.net/ - New and Improved (yes, the popup is
    > annoying)
    > http://www.openmymind.net/faq.aspx - unofficial newsgroup FAQ (more to
    > come!)
    > "Kevin Spencer" <> wrote in message
    > news:...
    >> Is it just me, or am I really observing a trend away from analysis and
    >> probem-solving amongst programmers? Let me be more specific:
    >>
    >> It seems that every day, in greater numbers, people are coming to these
    >> programming newsgroups and asking for ready-made solutions to fairly

    > simple
    >> programming problems. They either want someone to write code for them, or
    >> point them to a ready-made chunk of software that does what they need to

    > do.
    >>
    >> Now, I'm all for productivity, and have all the latest and greatest
    >> programming productivity tools. From time to time I do buy third-party
    >> components, such as a managed Zip extractor. Yes, I could build my own
    >> Zip
    >> extractor. The WinZip site publishes their algorithms. But it's quite
    >> low-level stuff, and it would take me a week to write my own, whereas I
    >> could buy one for $50.00 and get on to more important things. That seems
    >> reasonable to me. If it is cost that is truly the issue, third-party
    >> components are fine.
    >>
    >> On the other hand, third-party components are only as good as their
    >> designers. When you use a third-party component you are creating a form
    >> of
    >> external dependency, over which you have little or no control. So, all

    > other
    >> things being equal, I would tend to solve my own problems and build my
    >> own
    >> solutions.
    >>
    >> But, for example, asking for someone to write a snippet of JavaScript...
    >> well, that's just plain lazy IMHO. In the development tools that
    >> Microsoft
    >> manufactures, there are enough tools and technology to build your own
    >> Operating System. It is as if Microsoft has given you every tool you
    >> could
    >> possibly need, and enough lumber to build the Hoover Dam, but if you need

    > to
    >> build a dog house, and you've never built one before, by golly, you'll

    > just
    >> go out and buy one. Now, how does that make you a better carpenter? And

    > what
    >> justifies the expense of buying a dog house when you already have all the
    >> tools and lumber to build one? Especially when it would cost you the same
    >> amount of money to build one (in man-hours) as it takes to buy one? At

    > least
    >> if you build it you've enhanced your capabilites somewhat. And if you
    >> need
    >> to add air-conditioning to the existing dog house, well, you're all

    > prepared
    >> to do so, since you built it to begin with.
    >>
    >> I mean, whatever happened to the ethic that programmers should study
    >> their
    >> trade every day with diligence? I know I do. I probably spend an average

    > of
    >> an hour a day studying my trade. Any good developer should, it seems to

    > me.
    >>
    >> So, what's up with all this "just give me the codes (and stuff)"
    >> attitude?
    >> Is it just me, or does this bother anybody else? Am I way off track here?
    >>
    >> --
    >> HTH,
    >>
    >> Kevin Spencer
    >> Microsoft MVP
    >> .Net Developer
    >> What You Seek Is What You Get.
    >>
    >>

    >
    >
     
    Kevin Spencer, Mar 16, 2005
    #9
  10. Kevin Spencer

    Karl Seguin Guest

    Kevin,
    I absolutely 100% agree with you. My frustration is equal to yours, but not
    because I have to maintain crappy legacy code, instead because I'm trying to
    write brand new code in ASP.Net with people who just don't know fundamental
    programming techniques. ASP and ASP.net are so different it's a painful
    joke. The last 3 years of my life I've been dealing with people who just
    can't make the transition. I've also had the pleasure to work with truly
    exceptional programmers, but for the most part we are outnumbered ;)

    I've been hoping that .Net's harsh learning cuve might turn some of the
    shade-tree programmers onto different career paths :) I help here because I
    believe that many of the people asking are truly interested in becoming the
    "real thing"

    Karl

    --
    MY ASP.Net tutorials
    http://www.openmymind.net/ - New and Improved (yes, the popup is
    annoying)
    http://www.openmymind.net/faq.aspx - unofficial newsgroup FAQ (more to
    come!)
    "Kevin Spencer" <> wrote in message
    news:%...
    > Hi Karl,
    >
    > > I don't think there are more lazy
    > > programmes today than there were 5 years ago....and if there are, I

    wonder
    > > if .Net's harsh learning curve has anything to do with it...

    >
    > Interesting observation! I have been fostering high hopes that .Net's

    harsh
    > learning curve might turn some of these shade-tree programmers into the

    real
    > thing! But of course, only time will tell.
    >
    > For anyone that thinks I'm being somehow "elitist," you should realize

    that
    > much of my frustration comes not from answering questions in newsgroups,

    but
    > also from personal experience. I have had to work a few too many times

    with
    > legacy code that was nightmarishly bad. About the best that could be said
    > for it was that it did accomplish its requirements. On the other hand, it
    > was poorly written, slow, full of hacks, and completely inextensible as it
    > stood. Unfortunately, programming is one of those businesses where you DO
    > get what you pay for, in terms of talent. If you hire cheap talent, it

    will
    > cost you much more in the long run.
    >
    > --
    > HTH,
    >
    > Kevin Spencer
    > Microsoft MVP
    > .Net Developer
    > What You Seek Is What You Get.
    >
    > "Karl Seguin" <karl REMOVE @ REMOVE openmymind REMOVEMETOO . ANDME net>
    > wrote in message news:...
    > > We both spend enough time in here to know that a lot of what you say is
    > > true. Sometimes it's a real downer, sometimes it seems like just a few
    > > bad
    > > apples spoiling it for the rest...I'm sure the number of people I've
    > > helped
    > > once (and only once) in this newsgroup exceeds the number of people I've
    > > helped more than once. For me, this implies that most people are giving
    > > it
    > > an honest go, which (for now) is enough for me to keep helping out.

    Maybe
    > > i
    > > haven't been around long enough, but I imagine this has always been

    true:
    > > some people are "lazy", some aren't. I don't think there are more lazy
    > > programmes today than there were 5 years ago....and if there are, I

    wonder
    > > if .Net's harsh learning curve has anything to do with it...
    > >
    > > --
    > > MY ASP.Net tutorials
    > > http://www.openmymind.net/ - New and Improved (yes, the popup is
    > > annoying)
    > > http://www.openmymind.net/faq.aspx - unofficial newsgroup FAQ (more to
    > > come!)
    > > "Kevin Spencer" <> wrote in message
    > > news:...
    > >> Is it just me, or am I really observing a trend away from analysis and
    > >> probem-solving amongst programmers? Let me be more specific:
    > >>
    > >> It seems that every day, in greater numbers, people are coming to these
    > >> programming newsgroups and asking for ready-made solutions to fairly

    > > simple
    > >> programming problems. They either want someone to write code for them,

    or
    > >> point them to a ready-made chunk of software that does what they need

    to
    > > do.
    > >>
    > >> Now, I'm all for productivity, and have all the latest and greatest
    > >> programming productivity tools. From time to time I do buy third-party
    > >> components, such as a managed Zip extractor. Yes, I could build my own
    > >> Zip
    > >> extractor. The WinZip site publishes their algorithms. But it's quite
    > >> low-level stuff, and it would take me a week to write my own, whereas I
    > >> could buy one for $50.00 and get on to more important things. That

    seems
    > >> reasonable to me. If it is cost that is truly the issue, third-party
    > >> components are fine.
    > >>
    > >> On the other hand, third-party components are only as good as their
    > >> designers. When you use a third-party component you are creating a form
    > >> of
    > >> external dependency, over which you have little or no control. So, all

    > > other
    > >> things being equal, I would tend to solve my own problems and build my
    > >> own
    > >> solutions.
    > >>
    > >> But, for example, asking for someone to write a snippet of

    JavaScript...
    > >> well, that's just plain lazy IMHO. In the development tools that
    > >> Microsoft
    > >> manufactures, there are enough tools and technology to build your own
    > >> Operating System. It is as if Microsoft has given you every tool you
    > >> could
    > >> possibly need, and enough lumber to build the Hoover Dam, but if you

    need
    > > to
    > >> build a dog house, and you've never built one before, by golly, you'll

    > > just
    > >> go out and buy one. Now, how does that make you a better carpenter? And

    > > what
    > >> justifies the expense of buying a dog house when you already have all

    the
    > >> tools and lumber to build one? Especially when it would cost you the

    same
    > >> amount of money to build one (in man-hours) as it takes to buy one? At

    > > least
    > >> if you build it you've enhanced your capabilites somewhat. And if you
    > >> need
    > >> to add air-conditioning to the existing dog house, well, you're all

    > > prepared
    > >> to do so, since you built it to begin with.
    > >>
    > >> I mean, whatever happened to the ethic that programmers should study
    > >> their
    > >> trade every day with diligence? I know I do. I probably spend an

    average
    > > of
    > >> an hour a day studying my trade. Any good developer should, it seems to

    > > me.
    > >>
    > >> So, what's up with all this "just give me the codes (and stuff)"
    > >> attitude?
    > >> Is it just me, or does this bother anybody else? Am I way off track

    here?
    > >>
    > >> --
    > >> HTH,
    > >>
    > >> Kevin Spencer
    > >> Microsoft MVP
    > >> .Net Developer
    > >> What You Seek Is What You Get.
    > >>
    > >>

    > >
    > >

    >
    >
     
    Karl Seguin, Mar 16, 2005
    #10
  11. Kevin Spencer

    Karl Seguin Guest

    Juan:
    I handle it the same as you, though I offer up a lot of code sometimes
    (depends on my mood probably). If you guys have read my stuff, you know
    that I try to go far beyond simple answers and actually provide explanations
    about why it's like this. Those who want can skip everything and get the
    answer, but I hope a majority take the time and try to understand....

    Karl

    --
    MY ASP.Net tutorials
    http://www.openmymind.net/ - New and Improved (yes, the popup is
    annoying)
    http://www.openmymind.net/faq.aspx - unofficial newsgroup FAQ (more to
    come!)
    "Juan T. Llibre" <> wrote in message
    news:%...
    > re:
    > >What I was describing as "lazy" is the tendancy to ask for a solution,
    > >rather than to ask for direction.

    >
    > That is a direct result of the way these public newsgroups
    > have bee defined : as a place to get solutions from peers.
    >
    > "Getting solutions" is interpreted as "hand me
    > ready-made solutions to the questions I'm asking".
    >
    > That means asking for code, instead of guidance.
    >
    > How many times have you seen questions like :
    >
    > "I want to do the same thing Hotmail does. Send me the code."
    >
    > My approach :
    > If it's a simple thing requested, I'll provide sample code.
    >
    > If understanding the question's anser entails more than that,
    > pointing the way to online articles which present solutions
    > to the question will do.
    >
    > If the question goes beyond what a post can provide,
    > or an article can provide, I'll point the way to online
    > documentation or books.
    >
    > We should strive to have the poster of a question *understand*
    > why the solution works as it does, instead of just mechanically
    > cutting and pasting from the sample to his/her code.
    >
    > And, speaking of his/her, where are the lady programmers ?
    > I don't think I've seen too many posts by women here.
    >
    > That's something else we should be concerned with.
    >
    > ;-)
    >
    >
    >
    > Juan T. Llibre
    > ASP.NET MVP
    > http://asp.net.do/foros/
    > Foros de ASP.NET en Español
    > Ven, y hablemos de ASP.NET...
    > ======================
    >
    > "Kevin Spencer" <> wrote in message
    > news:...
    > > Hi Manohar,
    > >
    > >> Kevin, while I see your point, I guess it is elitist to think of any
    > >> problem
    > >> as small. In my opinion, people ask because they don't have an idea to
    > >> continue (whatever the reason maybe -- pressure, lack of education,
    > >> etc.),
    > >> and not because they are lazy.

    > >
    > > Everyone has problems they haven't encountered before, and everyone

    needs
    > > help from time to time. What I was describing as "lazy" is the tendancy

    to
    > > ask for a solution, rather than to ask for direction. Direction is
    > > basically pointing someone in the direction they need to look to solve
    > > their problem. IOW, direction is not solving the problem for the
    > > individual, but enabling the individual to solve their own problem. It
    > > seems that there are many more developers out there looking for

    ready-made
    > > solutions than help in solving their problems. Take a look at many of

    the
    > > longer-running threads in this newsgroup, and you should see what I'm
    > > talking about. People give directions, and the person who asks is not
    > > satisfied, or doesn't understand. Instead of probing further for
    > > themselves, they come back and continue prodding until someone gives

    them
    > > a ready-made solution, or writes their code for them. Afterwards, the
    > > original person has their solution, but they have no understanding of

    it.
    > > And they are no better or more independent as a result. They have

    learned
    > > nothing. The shame of it is, I get the impression many don't WANT to
    > > learn.
    > >
    > > God help me if my career should ever become so - mechanical!
    > >
    > > --
    > > HTH,
    > >
    > > Kevin Spencer
    > > Microsoft MVP
    > > .Net Developer
    > > What You Seek Is What You Get.
    > >
    > > "Manohar Kamath" <> wrote in message
    > > news:%...
    > >> My take: As long as there are roads, there will be people to ask for
    > >> directions.
    > >>
    > >> Kevin, while I see your point, I guess it is elitist to think of any
    > >> problem
    > >> as small. In my opinion, people ask because they don't have an idea to
    > >> continue (whatever the reason maybe -- pressure, lack of education,
    > >> etc.),
    > >> and not because they are lazy.
    > >>
    > >> As per "programming as trade" -- the problem lies in the fact that most
    > >> developers now learn their trade on the job. I guess people need to
    > >> recognize this trend, and adapt accordingly. If anything, there are
    > >> opportunities here -- for authors of books, web sites, etc.
    > >>
    > >> --
    > >> Manohar Kamath
    > >> Editor, .netWire
    > >> www.dotnetwire.com
    > >>
    > >>
    > >> "Kevin Spencer" <> wrote in message
    > >> news:...
    > >>> Is it just me, or am I really observing a trend away from analysis and
    > >>> probem-solving amongst programmers? Let me be more specific:
    > >>>
    > >>> It seems that every day, in greater numbers, people are coming to

    these
    > >>> programming newsgroups and asking for ready-made solutions to fairly
    > >> simple
    > >>> programming problems. They either want someone to write code for them,
    > >>> or
    > >>> point them to a ready-made chunk of software that does what they need

    to
    > >> do.
    > >>>
    > >>> Now, I'm all for productivity, and have all the latest and greatest
    > >>> programming productivity tools. From time to time I do buy third-party
    > >>> components, such as a managed Zip extractor. Yes, I could build my own
    > >>> Zip
    > >>> extractor. The WinZip site publishes their algorithms. But it's quite
    > >>> low-level stuff, and it would take me a week to write my own, whereas

    I
    > >>> could buy one for $50.00 and get on to more important things. That

    seems
    > >>> reasonable to me. If it is cost that is truly the issue, third-party
    > >>> components are fine.
    > >>>
    > >>> On the other hand, third-party components are only as good as their
    > >>> designers. When you use a third-party component you are creating a

    form
    > >>> of
    > >>> external dependency, over which you have little or no control. So, all
    > >> other
    > >>> things being equal, I would tend to solve my own problems and build my
    > >>> own
    > >>> solutions.
    > >>>
    > >>> But, for example, asking for someone to write a snippet of

    JavaScript...
    > >>> well, that's just plain lazy IMHO. In the development tools that
    > >>> Microsoft
    > >>> manufactures, there are enough tools and technology to build your own
    > >>> Operating System. It is as if Microsoft has given you every tool you
    > >>> could
    > >>> possibly need, and enough lumber to build the Hoover Dam, but if you
    > >>> need
    > >> to
    > >>> build a dog house, and you've never built one before, by golly, you'll
    > >> just
    > >>> go out and buy one. Now, how does that make you a better carpenter?

    And
    > >> what
    > >>> justifies the expense of buying a dog house when you already have all
    > >>> the
    > >>> tools and lumber to build one? Especially when it would cost you the
    > >>> same
    > >>> amount of money to build one (in man-hours) as it takes to buy one? At
    > >> least
    > >>> if you build it you've enhanced your capabilites somewhat. And if you
    > >>> need
    > >>> to add air-conditioning to the existing dog house, well, you're all
    > >> prepared
    > >>> to do so, since you built it to begin with.
    > >>>
    > >>> I mean, whatever happened to the ethic that programmers should study
    > >>> their
    > >>> trade every day with diligence? I know I do. I probably spend an

    average
    > >> of
    > >>> an hour a day studying my trade. Any good developer should, it seems

    to
    > >> me.
    > >>>
    > >>> So, what's up with all this "just give me the codes (and stuff)"
    > >>> attitude?
    > >>> Is it just me, or does this bother anybody else? Am I way off track
    > >>> here?
    > >>>
    > >>> --
    > >>> HTH,
    > >>>
    > >>> Kevin Spencer
    > >>> Microsoft MVP
    > >>> .Net Developer
    > >>> What You Seek Is What You Get.
    > >>>
    > >>>
    > >>
    > >>

    > >
    > >

    >
    >
     
    Karl Seguin, Mar 16, 2005
    #11
  12. Why did you pay money for a zip library when there's already one built into
    the .net framework?
    http://www.thescarms.com/dotNet/JavaZip.asp

    If you would have come here and asked the question first, you could have
    saved your company some money. And maybe the knowledge would have made you
    a better carpenter too.

    Even if you already knew about the zip library, I hope you see my point, and
    I see yours too. What I hate most is when it sounds like somebody is trying
    to get me to do their computer class homework for them. Slackers!

    I do understand though that there are a lot of people that ask questions in
    here and maybe programming is not their usual full time job but they're
    trying to find a quick, ready made solution anyway. I don't have a problem
    with them.

    --
    I hope this helps,
    Steve C. Orr, MCSD, MVP
    http://SteveOrr.net




    "Kevin Spencer" <> wrote in message
    news:...
    > Is it just me, or am I really observing a trend away from analysis and
    > probem-solving amongst programmers? Let me be more specific:
    >
    > It seems that every day, in greater numbers, people are coming to these
    > programming newsgroups and asking for ready-made solutions to fairly
    > simple programming problems. They either want someone to write code for
    > them, or point them to a ready-made chunk of software that does what they
    > need to do.
    >
    > Now, I'm all for productivity, and have all the latest and greatest
    > programming productivity tools. From time to time I do buy third-party
    > components, such as a managed Zip extractor. Yes, I could build my own Zip
    > extractor. The WinZip site publishes their algorithms. But it's quite
    > low-level stuff, and it would take me a week to write my own, whereas I
    > could buy one for $50.00 and get on to more important things. That seems
    > reasonable to me. If it is cost that is truly the issue, third-party
    > components are fine.
    >
    > On the other hand, third-party components are only as good as their
    > designers. When you use a third-party component you are creating a form of
    > external dependency, over which you have little or no control. So, all
    > other things being equal, I would tend to solve my own problems and build
    > my own solutions.
    >
    > But, for example, asking for someone to write a snippet of JavaScript...
    > well, that's just plain lazy IMHO. In the development tools that Microsoft
    > manufactures, there are enough tools and technology to build your own
    > Operating System. It is as if Microsoft has given you every tool you could
    > possibly need, and enough lumber to build the Hoover Dam, but if you need
    > to build a dog house, and you've never built one before, by golly, you'll
    > just go out and buy one. Now, how does that make you a better carpenter?
    > And what justifies the expense of buying a dog house when you already have
    > all the tools and lumber to build one? Especially when it would cost you
    > the same amount of money to build one (in man-hours) as it takes to buy
    > one? At least if you build it you've enhanced your capabilites somewhat.
    > And if you need to add air-conditioning to the existing dog house, well,
    > you're all prepared to do so, since you built it to begin with.
    >
    > I mean, whatever happened to the ethic that programmers should study their
    > trade every day with diligence? I know I do. I probably spend an average
    > of an hour a day studying my trade. Any good developer should, it seems to
    > me.
    >
    > So, what's up with all this "just give me the codes (and stuff)" attitude?
    > Is it just me, or does this bother anybody else? Am I way off track here?
    >
    > --
    > HTH,
    >
    > Kevin Spencer
    > Microsoft MVP
    > .Net Developer
    > What You Seek Is What You Get.
    >
    >
     
    Steve C. Orr [MVP, MCSD], Mar 16, 2005
    #12
  13. Kevin,

    When a thread goes for more than 4 levels, I am usually out! Because then,
    they are making you solve their problem, than ask you for a solution. Also,
    generally when people ask for code, they are also happy if you can show them
    where you can find it (that's been my experience, anyways).

    As Juan mentioned, it is entirely upto people how to respond to questions.
    If the persons asks you for a code, you may not be able to help. However, it
    does not change the fact that the person is clueless, or outright lazy. You
    also can't change the fact that the person will ask similar questions in the
    future, or someone is willing to help the person.

    Like most things in free economy, the market will choose how to treat
    people. If you are a solid "technician" -- chances are you will make good
    money. If you ask for code everytime, someday someone will find out.

    --
    Manohar Kamath
    Editor, .netWire
    www.dotnetwire.com


    "Kevin Spencer" <> wrote in message
    news:...
    > Hi Manohar,
    >
    > > Kevin, while I see your point, I guess it is elitist to think of any
    > > problem
    > > as small. In my opinion, people ask because they don't have an idea to
    > > continue (whatever the reason maybe -- pressure, lack of education,

    etc.),
    > > and not because they are lazy.

    >
    > Everyone has problems they haven't encountered before, and everyone needs
    > help from time to time. What I was describing as "lazy" is the tendancy to
    > ask for a solution, rather than to ask for direction. Direction is

    basically
    > pointing someone in the direction they need to look to solve their

    problem.
    > IOW, direction is not solving the problem for the individual, but enabling
    > the individual to solve their own problem. It seems that there are many

    more
    > developers out there looking for ready-made solutions than help in solving
    > their problems. Take a look at many of the longer-running threads in this
    > newsgroup, and you should see what I'm talking about. People give
    > directions, and the person who asks is not satisfied, or doesn't

    understand.
    > Instead of probing further for themselves, they come back and continue
    > prodding until someone gives them a ready-made solution, or writes their
    > code for them. Afterwards, the original person has their solution, but

    they
    > have no understanding of it. And they are no better or more independent as

    a
    > result. They have learned nothing. The shame of it is, I get the

    impression
    > many don't WANT to learn.
    >
    > God help me if my career should ever become so - mechanical!
    >
    > --
    > HTH,
    >
    > Kevin Spencer
    > Microsoft MVP
    > .Net Developer
    > What You Seek Is What You Get.
    >
    > "Manohar Kamath" <> wrote in message
    > news:%...
    > > My take: As long as there are roads, there will be people to ask for
    > > directions.
    > >
    > > Kevin, while I see your point, I guess it is elitist to think of any
    > > problem
    > > as small. In my opinion, people ask because they don't have an idea to
    > > continue (whatever the reason maybe -- pressure, lack of education,

    etc.),
    > > and not because they are lazy.
    > >
    > > As per "programming as trade" -- the problem lies in the fact that most
    > > developers now learn their trade on the job. I guess people need to
    > > recognize this trend, and adapt accordingly. If anything, there are
    > > opportunities here -- for authors of books, web sites, etc.
    > >
    > > --
    > > Manohar Kamath
    > > Editor, .netWire
    > > www.dotnetwire.com
    > >
    > >
    > > "Kevin Spencer" <> wrote in message
    > > news:...
    > >> Is it just me, or am I really observing a trend away from analysis and
    > >> probem-solving amongst programmers? Let me be more specific:
    > >>
    > >> It seems that every day, in greater numbers, people are coming to these
    > >> programming newsgroups and asking for ready-made solutions to fairly

    > > simple
    > >> programming problems. They either want someone to write code for them,

    or
    > >> point them to a ready-made chunk of software that does what they need

    to
    > > do.
    > >>
    > >> Now, I'm all for productivity, and have all the latest and greatest
    > >> programming productivity tools. From time to time I do buy third-party
    > >> components, such as a managed Zip extractor. Yes, I could build my own
    > >> Zip
    > >> extractor. The WinZip site publishes their algorithms. But it's quite
    > >> low-level stuff, and it would take me a week to write my own, whereas I
    > >> could buy one for $50.00 and get on to more important things. That

    seems
    > >> reasonable to me. If it is cost that is truly the issue, third-party
    > >> components are fine.
    > >>
    > >> On the other hand, third-party components are only as good as their
    > >> designers. When you use a third-party component you are creating a form
    > >> of
    > >> external dependency, over which you have little or no control. So, all

    > > other
    > >> things being equal, I would tend to solve my own problems and build my
    > >> own
    > >> solutions.
    > >>
    > >> But, for example, asking for someone to write a snippet of

    JavaScript...
    > >> well, that's just plain lazy IMHO. In the development tools that
    > >> Microsoft
    > >> manufactures, there are enough tools and technology to build your own
    > >> Operating System. It is as if Microsoft has given you every tool you
    > >> could
    > >> possibly need, and enough lumber to build the Hoover Dam, but if you

    need
    > > to
    > >> build a dog house, and you've never built one before, by golly, you'll

    > > just
    > >> go out and buy one. Now, how does that make you a better carpenter? And

    > > what
    > >> justifies the expense of buying a dog house when you already have all

    the
    > >> tools and lumber to build one? Especially when it would cost you the

    same
    > >> amount of money to build one (in man-hours) as it takes to buy one? At

    > > least
    > >> if you build it you've enhanced your capabilites somewhat. And if you
    > >> need
    > >> to add air-conditioning to the existing dog house, well, you're all

    > > prepared
    > >> to do so, since you built it to begin with.
    > >>
    > >> I mean, whatever happened to the ethic that programmers should study
    > >> their
    > >> trade every day with diligence? I know I do. I probably spend an

    average
    > > of
    > >> an hour a day studying my trade. Any good developer should, it seems to

    > > me.
    > >>
    > >> So, what's up with all this "just give me the codes (and stuff)"
    > >> attitude?
    > >> Is it just me, or does this bother anybody else? Am I way off track

    here?
    > >>
    > >> --
    > >> HTH,
    > >>
    > >> Kevin Spencer
    > >> Microsoft MVP
    > >> .Net Developer
    > >> What You Seek Is What You Get.
    > >>
    > >>

    > >
    > >

    >
    >
     
    Manohar Kamath, Mar 16, 2005
    #13
  14. > I've been hoping that .Net's harsh learning cuve might turn some of the
    > shade-tree programmers onto different career paths :)


    ROFLMAO!

    I never had the guts to say it, but I'm with you there!

    --
    HTH,

    Kevin Spencer
    Microsoft MVP
    ..Net Developer
    What You Seek Is What You Get.

    "Karl Seguin" <karl REMOVE @ REMOVE openmymind REMOVEMETOO . ANDME net>
    wrote in message news:%...
    > Kevin,
    > I absolutely 100% agree with you. My frustration is equal to yours, but
    > not
    > because I have to maintain crappy legacy code, instead because I'm trying
    > to
    > write brand new code in ASP.Net with people who just don't know
    > fundamental
    > programming techniques. ASP and ASP.net are so different it's a painful
    > joke. The last 3 years of my life I've been dealing with people who just
    > can't make the transition. I've also had the pleasure to work with truly
    > exceptional programmers, but for the most part we are outnumbered ;)
    >
    > I've been hoping that .Net's harsh learning cuve might turn some of the
    > shade-tree programmers onto different career paths :) I help here because
    > I
    > believe that many of the people asking are truly interested in becoming
    > the
    > "real thing"
    >
    > Karl
    >
    > --
    > MY ASP.Net tutorials
    > http://www.openmymind.net/ - New and Improved (yes, the popup is
    > annoying)
    > http://www.openmymind.net/faq.aspx - unofficial newsgroup FAQ (more to
    > come!)
    > "Kevin Spencer" <> wrote in message
    > news:%...
    >> Hi Karl,
    >>
    >> > I don't think there are more lazy
    >> > programmes today than there were 5 years ago....and if there are, I

    > wonder
    >> > if .Net's harsh learning curve has anything to do with it...

    >>
    >> Interesting observation! I have been fostering high hopes that .Net's

    > harsh
    >> learning curve might turn some of these shade-tree programmers into the

    > real
    >> thing! But of course, only time will tell.
    >>
    >> For anyone that thinks I'm being somehow "elitist," you should realize

    > that
    >> much of my frustration comes not from answering questions in newsgroups,

    > but
    >> also from personal experience. I have had to work a few too many times

    > with
    >> legacy code that was nightmarishly bad. About the best that could be said
    >> for it was that it did accomplish its requirements. On the other hand, it
    >> was poorly written, slow, full of hacks, and completely inextensible as
    >> it
    >> stood. Unfortunately, programming is one of those businesses where you DO
    >> get what you pay for, in terms of talent. If you hire cheap talent, it

    > will
    >> cost you much more in the long run.
    >>
    >> --
    >> HTH,
    >>
    >> Kevin Spencer
    >> Microsoft MVP
    >> .Net Developer
    >> What You Seek Is What You Get.
    >>
    >> "Karl Seguin" <karl REMOVE @ REMOVE openmymind REMOVEMETOO . ANDME net>
    >> wrote in message news:...
    >> > We both spend enough time in here to know that a lot of what you say is
    >> > true. Sometimes it's a real downer, sometimes it seems like just a few
    >> > bad
    >> > apples spoiling it for the rest...I'm sure the number of people I've
    >> > helped
    >> > once (and only once) in this newsgroup exceeds the number of people
    >> > I've
    >> > helped more than once. For me, this implies that most people are
    >> > giving
    >> > it
    >> > an honest go, which (for now) is enough for me to keep helping out.

    > Maybe
    >> > i
    >> > haven't been around long enough, but I imagine this has always been

    > true:
    >> > some people are "lazy", some aren't. I don't think there are more lazy
    >> > programmes today than there were 5 years ago....and if there are, I

    > wonder
    >> > if .Net's harsh learning curve has anything to do with it...
    >> >
    >> > --
    >> > MY ASP.Net tutorials
    >> > http://www.openmymind.net/ - New and Improved (yes, the popup is
    >> > annoying)
    >> > http://www.openmymind.net/faq.aspx - unofficial newsgroup FAQ (more to
    >> > come!)
    >> > "Kevin Spencer" <> wrote in message
    >> > news:...
    >> >> Is it just me, or am I really observing a trend away from analysis and
    >> >> probem-solving amongst programmers? Let me be more specific:
    >> >>
    >> >> It seems that every day, in greater numbers, people are coming to
    >> >> these
    >> >> programming newsgroups and asking for ready-made solutions to fairly
    >> > simple
    >> >> programming problems. They either want someone to write code for them,

    > or
    >> >> point them to a ready-made chunk of software that does what they need

    > to
    >> > do.
    >> >>
    >> >> Now, I'm all for productivity, and have all the latest and greatest
    >> >> programming productivity tools. From time to time I do buy third-party
    >> >> components, such as a managed Zip extractor. Yes, I could build my own
    >> >> Zip
    >> >> extractor. The WinZip site publishes their algorithms. But it's quite
    >> >> low-level stuff, and it would take me a week to write my own, whereas
    >> >> I
    >> >> could buy one for $50.00 and get on to more important things. That

    > seems
    >> >> reasonable to me. If it is cost that is truly the issue, third-party
    >> >> components are fine.
    >> >>
    >> >> On the other hand, third-party components are only as good as their
    >> >> designers. When you use a third-party component you are creating a
    >> >> form
    >> >> of
    >> >> external dependency, over which you have little or no control. So, all
    >> > other
    >> >> things being equal, I would tend to solve my own problems and build my
    >> >> own
    >> >> solutions.
    >> >>
    >> >> But, for example, asking for someone to write a snippet of

    > JavaScript...
    >> >> well, that's just plain lazy IMHO. In the development tools that
    >> >> Microsoft
    >> >> manufactures, there are enough tools and technology to build your own
    >> >> Operating System. It is as if Microsoft has given you every tool you
    >> >> could
    >> >> possibly need, and enough lumber to build the Hoover Dam, but if you

    > need
    >> > to
    >> >> build a dog house, and you've never built one before, by golly, you'll
    >> > just
    >> >> go out and buy one. Now, how does that make you a better carpenter?
    >> >> And
    >> > what
    >> >> justifies the expense of buying a dog house when you already have all

    > the
    >> >> tools and lumber to build one? Especially when it would cost you the

    > same
    >> >> amount of money to build one (in man-hours) as it takes to buy one? At
    >> > least
    >> >> if you build it you've enhanced your capabilites somewhat. And if you
    >> >> need
    >> >> to add air-conditioning to the existing dog house, well, you're all
    >> > prepared
    >> >> to do so, since you built it to begin with.
    >> >>
    >> >> I mean, whatever happened to the ethic that programmers should study
    >> >> their
    >> >> trade every day with diligence? I know I do. I probably spend an

    > average
    >> > of
    >> >> an hour a day studying my trade. Any good developer should, it seems
    >> >> to
    >> > me.
    >> >>
    >> >> So, what's up with all this "just give me the codes (and stuff)"
    >> >> attitude?
    >> >> Is it just me, or does this bother anybody else? Am I way off track

    > here?
    >> >>
    >> >> --
    >> >> HTH,
    >> >>
    >> >> Kevin Spencer
    >> >> Microsoft MVP
    >> >> .Net Developer
    >> >> What You Seek Is What You Get.
    >> >>
    >> >>
    >> >
    >> >

    >>
    >>

    >
    >
     
    Kevin Spencer, Mar 16, 2005
    #14
  15. Kevin Spencer

    Karl Seguin Guest

    hah! Better to help "slacker" kids with their homework than professional
    adults with their paychecks :p

    Karl

    --
    MY ASP.Net tutorials
    http://www.openmymind.net/ - New and Improved (yes, the popup is
    annoying)
    http://www.openmymind.net/faq.aspx - unofficial newsgroup FAQ (more to
    come!)
    "Steve C. Orr [MVP, MCSD]" <> wrote in message
    news:...
    > Why did you pay money for a zip library when there's already one built

    into
    > the .net framework?
    > http://www.thescarms.com/dotNet/JavaZip.asp
    >
    > If you would have come here and asked the question first, you could have
    > saved your company some money. And maybe the knowledge would have made

    you
    > a better carpenter too.
    >
    > Even if you already knew about the zip library, I hope you see my point,

    and
    > I see yours too. What I hate most is when it sounds like somebody is

    trying
    > to get me to do their computer class homework for them. Slackers!
    >
    > I do understand though that there are a lot of people that ask questions

    in
    > here and maybe programming is not their usual full time job but they're
    > trying to find a quick, ready made solution anyway. I don't have a

    problem
    > with them.
    >
    > --
    > I hope this helps,
    > Steve C. Orr, MCSD, MVP
    > http://SteveOrr.net
    >
    >
    >
    >
    > "Kevin Spencer" <> wrote in message
    > news:...
    > > Is it just me, or am I really observing a trend away from analysis and
    > > probem-solving amongst programmers? Let me be more specific:
    > >
    > > It seems that every day, in greater numbers, people are coming to these
    > > programming newsgroups and asking for ready-made solutions to fairly
    > > simple programming problems. They either want someone to write code for
    > > them, or point them to a ready-made chunk of software that does what

    they
    > > need to do.
    > >
    > > Now, I'm all for productivity, and have all the latest and greatest
    > > programming productivity tools. From time to time I do buy third-party
    > > components, such as a managed Zip extractor. Yes, I could build my own

    Zip
    > > extractor. The WinZip site publishes their algorithms. But it's quite
    > > low-level stuff, and it would take me a week to write my own, whereas I
    > > could buy one for $50.00 and get on to more important things. That seems
    > > reasonable to me. If it is cost that is truly the issue, third-party
    > > components are fine.
    > >
    > > On the other hand, third-party components are only as good as their
    > > designers. When you use a third-party component you are creating a form

    of
    > > external dependency, over which you have little or no control. So, all
    > > other things being equal, I would tend to solve my own problems and

    build
    > > my own solutions.
    > >
    > > But, for example, asking for someone to write a snippet of JavaScript...
    > > well, that's just plain lazy IMHO. In the development tools that

    Microsoft
    > > manufactures, there are enough tools and technology to build your own
    > > Operating System. It is as if Microsoft has given you every tool you

    could
    > > possibly need, and enough lumber to build the Hoover Dam, but if you

    need
    > > to build a dog house, and you've never built one before, by golly,

    you'll
    > > just go out and buy one. Now, how does that make you a better carpenter?
    > > And what justifies the expense of buying a dog house when you already

    have
    > > all the tools and lumber to build one? Especially when it would cost you
    > > the same amount of money to build one (in man-hours) as it takes to buy
    > > one? At least if you build it you've enhanced your capabilites somewhat.
    > > And if you need to add air-conditioning to the existing dog house, well,
    > > you're all prepared to do so, since you built it to begin with.
    > >
    > > I mean, whatever happened to the ethic that programmers should study

    their
    > > trade every day with diligence? I know I do. I probably spend an average
    > > of an hour a day studying my trade. Any good developer should, it seems

    to
    > > me.
    > >
    > > So, what's up with all this "just give me the codes (and stuff)"

    attitude?
    > > Is it just me, or does this bother anybody else? Am I way off track

    here?
    > >
    > > --
    > > HTH,
    > >
    > > Kevin Spencer
    > > Microsoft MVP
    > > .Net Developer
    > > What You Seek Is What You Get.
    > >
    > >

    >
    >
     
    Karl Seguin, Mar 16, 2005
    #15
  16. > Why did you pay money for a zip library when there's already one built
    > into the .net framework?


    Because I needed the zip library 3 years ago...

    --
    HTH,

    Kevin Spencer
    Microsoft MVP
    ..Net Developer
    What You Seek Is What You Get.

    "Steve C. Orr [MVP, MCSD]" <> wrote in message
    news:...
    > Why did you pay money for a zip library when there's already one built
    > into the .net framework?
    > http://www.thescarms.com/dotNet/JavaZip.asp
    >
    > If you would have come here and asked the question first, you could have
    > saved your company some money. And maybe the knowledge would have made
    > you a better carpenter too.
    >
    > Even if you already knew about the zip library, I hope you see my point,
    > and I see yours too. What I hate most is when it sounds like somebody is
    > trying to get me to do their computer class homework for them. Slackers!
    >
    > I do understand though that there are a lot of people that ask questions
    > in here and maybe programming is not their usual full time job but they're
    > trying to find a quick, ready made solution anyway. I don't have a
    > problem with them.
    >
    > --
    > I hope this helps,
    > Steve C. Orr, MCSD, MVP
    > http://SteveOrr.net
    >
    >
    >
    >
    > "Kevin Spencer" <> wrote in message
    > news:...
    >> Is it just me, or am I really observing a trend away from analysis and
    >> probem-solving amongst programmers? Let me be more specific:
    >>
    >> It seems that every day, in greater numbers, people are coming to these
    >> programming newsgroups and asking for ready-made solutions to fairly
    >> simple programming problems. They either want someone to write code for
    >> them, or point them to a ready-made chunk of software that does what they
    >> need to do.
    >>
    >> Now, I'm all for productivity, and have all the latest and greatest
    >> programming productivity tools. From time to time I do buy third-party
    >> components, such as a managed Zip extractor. Yes, I could build my own
    >> Zip extractor. The WinZip site publishes their algorithms. But it's quite
    >> low-level stuff, and it would take me a week to write my own, whereas I
    >> could buy one for $50.00 and get on to more important things. That seems
    >> reasonable to me. If it is cost that is truly the issue, third-party
    >> components are fine.
    >>
    >> On the other hand, third-party components are only as good as their
    >> designers. When you use a third-party component you are creating a form
    >> of external dependency, over which you have little or no control. So, all
    >> other things being equal, I would tend to solve my own problems and build
    >> my own solutions.
    >>
    >> But, for example, asking for someone to write a snippet of JavaScript...
    >> well, that's just plain lazy IMHO. In the development tools that
    >> Microsoft manufactures, there are enough tools and technology to build
    >> your own Operating System. It is as if Microsoft has given you every tool
    >> you could possibly need, and enough lumber to build the Hoover Dam, but
    >> if you need to build a dog house, and you've never built one before, by
    >> golly, you'll just go out and buy one. Now, how does that make you a
    >> better carpenter? And what justifies the expense of buying a dog house
    >> when you already have all the tools and lumber to build one? Especially
    >> when it would cost you the same amount of money to build one (in
    >> man-hours) as it takes to buy one? At least if you build it you've
    >> enhanced your capabilites somewhat. And if you need to add
    >> air-conditioning to the existing dog house, well, you're all prepared to
    >> do so, since you built it to begin with.
    >>
    >> I mean, whatever happened to the ethic that programmers should study
    >> their trade every day with diligence? I know I do. I probably spend an
    >> average of an hour a day studying my trade. Any good developer should, it
    >> seems to me.
    >>
    >> So, what's up with all this "just give me the codes (and stuff)"
    >> attitude? Is it just me, or does this bother anybody else? Am I way off
    >> track here?
    >>
    >> --
    >> HTH,
    >>
    >> Kevin Spencer
    >> Microsoft MVP
    >> .Net Developer
    >> What You Seek Is What You Get.
    >>
    >>

    >
    >
     
    Kevin Spencer, Mar 16, 2005
    #16
  17. Good points Manohar.

    To tell you the truth, I started this thread just so that some of these
    people might see themselves and decide to do something about it (for their
    own sake). I have helped peopple in Micrsosoft newsgroups for almost 10
    years now, and plan to continue for at least 10 more.

    :)

    --

    Kevin Spencer
    Microsoft MVP
    ..Net Developer
    What You Seek Is What You Get.

    "Manohar Kamath" <> wrote in message
    news:...
    > Kevin,
    >
    > When a thread goes for more than 4 levels, I am usually out! Because then,
    > they are making you solve their problem, than ask you for a solution.
    > Also,
    > generally when people ask for code, they are also happy if you can show
    > them
    > where you can find it (that's been my experience, anyways).
    >
    > As Juan mentioned, it is entirely upto people how to respond to questions.
    > If the persons asks you for a code, you may not be able to help. However,
    > it
    > does not change the fact that the person is clueless, or outright lazy.
    > You
    > also can't change the fact that the person will ask similar questions in
    > the
    > future, or someone is willing to help the person.
    >
    > Like most things in free economy, the market will choose how to treat
    > people. If you are a solid "technician" -- chances are you will make good
    > money. If you ask for code everytime, someday someone will find out.
    >
    > --
    > Manohar Kamath
    > Editor, .netWire
    > www.dotnetwire.com
    >
    >
    > "Kevin Spencer" <> wrote in message
    > news:...
    >> Hi Manohar,
    >>
    >> > Kevin, while I see your point, I guess it is elitist to think of any
    >> > problem
    >> > as small. In my opinion, people ask because they don't have an idea to
    >> > continue (whatever the reason maybe -- pressure, lack of education,

    > etc.),
    >> > and not because they are lazy.

    >>
    >> Everyone has problems they haven't encountered before, and everyone needs
    >> help from time to time. What I was describing as "lazy" is the tendancy
    >> to
    >> ask for a solution, rather than to ask for direction. Direction is

    > basically
    >> pointing someone in the direction they need to look to solve their

    > problem.
    >> IOW, direction is not solving the problem for the individual, but
    >> enabling
    >> the individual to solve their own problem. It seems that there are many

    > more
    >> developers out there looking for ready-made solutions than help in
    >> solving
    >> their problems. Take a look at many of the longer-running threads in this
    >> newsgroup, and you should see what I'm talking about. People give
    >> directions, and the person who asks is not satisfied, or doesn't

    > understand.
    >> Instead of probing further for themselves, they come back and continue
    >> prodding until someone gives them a ready-made solution, or writes their
    >> code for them. Afterwards, the original person has their solution, but

    > they
    >> have no understanding of it. And they are no better or more independent
    >> as

    > a
    >> result. They have learned nothing. The shame of it is, I get the

    > impression
    >> many don't WANT to learn.
    >>
    >> God help me if my career should ever become so - mechanical!
    >>
    >> --
    >> HTH,
    >>
    >> Kevin Spencer
    >> Microsoft MVP
    >> .Net Developer
    >> What You Seek Is What You Get.
    >>
    >> "Manohar Kamath" <> wrote in message
    >> news:%...
    >> > My take: As long as there are roads, there will be people to ask for
    >> > directions.
    >> >
    >> > Kevin, while I see your point, I guess it is elitist to think of any
    >> > problem
    >> > as small. In my opinion, people ask because they don't have an idea to
    >> > continue (whatever the reason maybe -- pressure, lack of education,

    > etc.),
    >> > and not because they are lazy.
    >> >
    >> > As per "programming as trade" -- the problem lies in the fact that most
    >> > developers now learn their trade on the job. I guess people need to
    >> > recognize this trend, and adapt accordingly. If anything, there are
    >> > opportunities here -- for authors of books, web sites, etc.
    >> >
    >> > --
    >> > Manohar Kamath
    >> > Editor, .netWire
    >> > www.dotnetwire.com
    >> >
    >> >
    >> > "Kevin Spencer" <> wrote in message
    >> > news:...
    >> >> Is it just me, or am I really observing a trend away from analysis and
    >> >> probem-solving amongst programmers? Let me be more specific:
    >> >>
    >> >> It seems that every day, in greater numbers, people are coming to
    >> >> these
    >> >> programming newsgroups and asking for ready-made solutions to fairly
    >> > simple
    >> >> programming problems. They either want someone to write code for them,

    > or
    >> >> point them to a ready-made chunk of software that does what they need

    > to
    >> > do.
    >> >>
    >> >> Now, I'm all for productivity, and have all the latest and greatest
    >> >> programming productivity tools. From time to time I do buy third-party
    >> >> components, such as a managed Zip extractor. Yes, I could build my own
    >> >> Zip
    >> >> extractor. The WinZip site publishes their algorithms. But it's quite
    >> >> low-level stuff, and it would take me a week to write my own, whereas
    >> >> I
    >> >> could buy one for $50.00 and get on to more important things. That

    > seems
    >> >> reasonable to me. If it is cost that is truly the issue, third-party
    >> >> components are fine.
    >> >>
    >> >> On the other hand, third-party components are only as good as their
    >> >> designers. When you use a third-party component you are creating a
    >> >> form
    >> >> of
    >> >> external dependency, over which you have little or no control. So, all
    >> > other
    >> >> things being equal, I would tend to solve my own problems and build my
    >> >> own
    >> >> solutions.
    >> >>
    >> >> But, for example, asking for someone to write a snippet of

    > JavaScript...
    >> >> well, that's just plain lazy IMHO. In the development tools that
    >> >> Microsoft
    >> >> manufactures, there are enough tools and technology to build your own
    >> >> Operating System. It is as if Microsoft has given you every tool you
    >> >> could
    >> >> possibly need, and enough lumber to build the Hoover Dam, but if you

    > need
    >> > to
    >> >> build a dog house, and you've never built one before, by golly, you'll
    >> > just
    >> >> go out and buy one. Now, how does that make you a better carpenter?
    >> >> And
    >> > what
    >> >> justifies the expense of buying a dog house when you already have all

    > the
    >> >> tools and lumber to build one? Especially when it would cost you the

    > same
    >> >> amount of money to build one (in man-hours) as it takes to buy one? At
    >> > least
    >> >> if you build it you've enhanced your capabilites somewhat. And if you
    >> >> need
    >> >> to add air-conditioning to the existing dog house, well, you're all
    >> > prepared
    >> >> to do so, since you built it to begin with.
    >> >>
    >> >> I mean, whatever happened to the ethic that programmers should study
    >> >> their
    >> >> trade every day with diligence? I know I do. I probably spend an

    > average
    >> > of
    >> >> an hour a day studying my trade. Any good developer should, it seems
    >> >> to
    >> > me.
    >> >>
    >> >> So, what's up with all this "just give me the codes (and stuff)"
    >> >> attitude?
    >> >> Is it just me, or does this bother anybody else? Am I way off track

    > here?
    >> >>
    >> >> --
    >> >> HTH,
    >> >>
    >> >> Kevin Spencer
    >> >> Microsoft MVP
    >> >> .Net Developer
    >> >> What You Seek Is What You Get.
    >> >>
    >> >>
    >> >
    >> >

    >>
    >>

    >
    >
     
    Kevin Spencer, Mar 16, 2005
    #17
  18. Kevin Spencer

    dgk Guest

    On Wed, 16 Mar 2005 13:35:54 -0500, "Kevin Spencer"
    <> wrote:

    >Hi Juan,
    >
    >> "Getting solutions" is interpreted as "hand me
    >> ready-made solutions to the questions I'm asking".
    >>
    >> That means asking for code, instead of guidance.

    >
    >That might be true of newsgroups for Windows, Office, or other end-user
    >software. Who would expect an end-user to understand or care how their
    >software works? My wife doesn't understand how a car works, but she can
    >drive one as well as anyone. On the other hand, the engineers who build cars
    >ought to know both how and why everything in the car works. I'm sure you
    >wouldn't want to drive in one that was engineereed by someone without
    >knowledge of what he/she was doing, right?
    >
    >A programmer is a technician. Therefore, a programmer ought to know how
    >their software works. And if so, they should not need anything more than a
    >little guidance, a shove in the right direction, etc. I certainly don't want
    >or expect more than that when I have a new issue to solve.



    There are many ways to learn. One that I'm best at is looking at code.
    For instance, I'm new at ASP.Net and was wondering how to to set the
    focus to a textbox. I was a bit surprised that there was no .Focus
    method on a textbox.I found this code on the newsgroup:

    Page.RegisterStartupScript("SetFocus", "<script
    language=""Jscript"" > document.getElementById(""txtName"").focus();
    </Script>")

    I now know about RegisterStartupScript and getElementById and can go
    from there. It also solved the immediate problem quickly.
     
    dgk, Mar 16, 2005
    #18
  19. > There are many ways to learn. One that I'm best at is looking at code.
    > For instance, I'm new at ASP.Net and was wondering how to to set the
    > focus to a textbox. I was a bit surprised that there was no .Focus
    > method on a textbox.I found this code on the newsgroup:
    >
    > Page.RegisterStartupScript("SetFocus", "<script
    > language=""Jscript"" > document.getElementById(""txtName"").focus();
    > </Script>")


    Sure, but on the other hand, if someone had told you to read the SDK on
    RegisterStartupScript, you would have learned all about it, such as where in
    the page it goes, and why, and you could have learned about
    RegisterClientScriptBlock, and the other cross-references as well.

    Still, I post a little code here and there too. Sometimes it's the best way
    to get the point across. But that doesn't mean that there isn't a problem
    with "professional" developers who don't want to learn.

    --
    HTH,

    Kevin Spencer
    Microsoft MVP
    ..Net Developer
    What You Seek Is What You Get.

    "dgk" <> wrote in message
    news:...
    > On Wed, 16 Mar 2005 13:35:54 -0500, "Kevin Spencer"
    > <> wrote:
    >
    >>Hi Juan,
    >>
    >>> "Getting solutions" is interpreted as "hand me
    >>> ready-made solutions to the questions I'm asking".
    >>>
    >>> That means asking for code, instead of guidance.

    >>
    >>That might be true of newsgroups for Windows, Office, or other end-user
    >>software. Who would expect an end-user to understand or care how their
    >>software works? My wife doesn't understand how a car works, but she can
    >>drive one as well as anyone. On the other hand, the engineers who build
    >>cars
    >>ought to know both how and why everything in the car works. I'm sure you
    >>wouldn't want to drive in one that was engineereed by someone without
    >>knowledge of what he/she was doing, right?
    >>
    >>A programmer is a technician. Therefore, a programmer ought to know how
    >>their software works. And if so, they should not need anything more than a
    >>little guidance, a shove in the right direction, etc. I certainly don't
    >>want
    >>or expect more than that when I have a new issue to solve.

    >
    >
    > There are many ways to learn. One that I'm best at is looking at code.
    > For instance, I'm new at ASP.Net and was wondering how to to set the
    > focus to a textbox. I was a bit surprised that there was no .Focus
    > method on a textbox.I found this code on the newsgroup:
    >
    > Page.RegisterStartupScript("SetFocus", "<script
    > language=""Jscript"" > document.getElementById(""txtName"").focus();
    > </Script>")
    >
    > I now know about RegisterStartupScript and getElementById and can go
    > from there. It also solved the immediate problem quickly.
     
    Kevin Spencer, Mar 16, 2005
    #19
  20. Kevin Spencer

    Scott Allen Guest

    On Wed, 16 Mar 2005 13:35:54 -0500, "Kevin Spencer"
    <> wrote:

    >
    >A programmer is a technician. Therefore, a programmer ought to know how
    >their software works. And if so, they should not need anything more than a
    >little guidance, a shove in the right direction, etc. I certainly don't want
    >or expect more than that when I have a new issue to solve.
    >


    I've always been curious what types of people show up here. What % are
    programmers, what % are students, what % are accountants trying to
    figure out a way to help the business be more productive.

    That being said, I have a feeling the worst offenders all have
    "developer" in thier titles....

    --
    Scott
    http://www.OdeToCode.com/blogs/scott/
     
    Scott Allen, Mar 17, 2005
    #20
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