The Modernization of Emacs

[Lew]

You know you can use something like
C-x C-f /su::/etc/fstab RET
(or /sudo::/etc/fstab) in order to edit files as root in a normal
Emacs session?

I've been using emacs for something like twenty years and never knew that before.

I like the built-in therapist in emacs.

 

[Robert Uhl]

Given that in its out-of-the-box configuration it's well-nigh unusable
without a printed-out "cheat sheet" of some kind, of the sort that
were supposed to have died out in the 80s, getting it customized poses
something of a catch-22 for anyone trying to get started using it.

I don't see that. C-h t is your friend if you're starting out. The
only keystrokes a user really needs to remember are C-x C-s and C-x C-c;
everything else simple text editing needs works as expected (arrow keys,
backspace and so forth). Granted, text-mode is friendlier than
fundamental-mode. Still, as a pico replacement emacs works well
enough--and as the user continue to works, he discovers more and more
functionality, eventually having a 10,000-line .emacs...

 

[Joel J. Adamson]

Given that in its out-of-the-box configuration it's well-nigh unusable
without a printed-out "cheat sheet" of some kind, of the sort that
were supposed to have died out in the 80s, getting it customized poses
something of a catch-22 for anyone trying to get started using it.

Again, I have to point out that I had a different experience. I did
the tutorial, and somehow immediately I understood how to customize.
I don't remember having any difficulty with Emacs other than not
liking the way it looked -- that's because I was on Windows (I later
found out). I soon fixed that problem. I didn't need a cheat-sheet,
since the help files are _actually_ _helpful_ unlike those "Help"
(=advertising) files on most other pieces of software.

My point is that I'm the sort of person that has a mind set up for
Emacs. I had none of the difficulties that someone else might have,
who's used to other kinds of software.

However, I'll also point out that my wife has used Emacs a couple
times, and she's never done more than point and click with a computer,
and she's had no frustration whatsoever.

Joel

--
Joel J. Adamson
Biostatistician
Pediatric Psychopharmacology Research Unit
Massachusetts General Hospital
Boston, MA 02114
(617) 643-1432
(303) 880-3109

A webpage of interest:
http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/sylvester-response.html

 

[Bjorn Borud]

[Twisted <[email protected]>]
|
| Being beginner-friendly doesn't have to be at the expense of power or
| expert-user usability.

depends on your definition of "expert".


| On the other hand, being actively beginner-hostile leads to nobody
| adopting the tool. Then again, if you don't mind being the last
| generation that'll ever use it, then I guess you're okay with that.

obviously I lie awake dreading the day this happens. on my tombstone
will say "here lies the last Emacs user on earth. M-x rip".

-Bjørn

 

[Bjorn Borud]

[Twisted <[email protected]>]
|
| Emacs does have documentation. The problem is you have to already know
| a load of emacs navigation oddities^Wkeyboard commands to get to and
| use it.

that, or just start Emacs and follow the instructions that appear on
the screen.

indeed, I *am* aware that something demanding an attention span in
excess of 3 seconds is a bit of a tall order for most users today.

-Bjørn

 

[notbob]

You know you can use something like
C-x C-f /su::/etc/fstab RET
(or /sudo::/etc/fstab) in order to edit files as root in a normal
Emacs session?

As I understand it, this will only work for ver 22 and later or if
you have tramp(?) installed. I have 2.3.1 (no tramp) and all I get is:

ftp> open su
ftp: su: Unknown host

I'm looking at upgrading to 22 for a couple other features, too.

nb

 

[Joel J. Adamson]

I don't know what software you're describing, but it's obviously not
emacs, unless there have been some HUGE changes to (at minimum) the
help and pane-navigation (er, excuse me, "window"-navigation)
controls...

We're talking about Emacs. In particular we're referring to

C-h t
C-h i
C-h ?

Or, since Emacs is customizable, for me it would be

<f1> t
<f1> i
<f1> ?

Joel

--
Joel J. Adamson
Biostatistician
Pediatric Psychopharmacology Research Unit
Massachusetts General Hospital
Boston, MA 02114
(617) 643-1432
(303) 880-3109

A webpage of interest:
http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/sylvester-response.html

 

[Joel J. Adamson]

Here's a nice one from Ken Thompson:

``I abhor a system designed for the "user", if that word is a coded
pejorative meaning "stupid and unsophisticated".''

That's a good one. It's going on my wall.

Joel

--
Joel J. Adamson
Biostatistician
Pediatric Psychopharmacology Research Unit
Massachusetts General Hospital
Boston, MA 02114
(617) 643-1432
(303) 880-3109

A webpage of interest:
http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/sylvester-response.html

 

[David Kastrup]

I've been using emacs for something like twenty years and never knew
that before.

The package "tramp" will provide that (as well as editing files over
ssh, scp, rsync, telnet, plink...). It is already preinstalled in
Emacs 22.1, but can also be installed for earlier versions.

 

[Joel J. Adamson]

Here's a nice one from Ken Thompson:

``I abhor a system designed for the "user", if that word is a coded
pejorative meaning "stupid and unsophisticated".''

That's a good one. It's going on my wall.

Joel

--
Joel J. Adamson
Biostatistician
Pediatric Psychopharmacology Research Unit
Massachusetts General Hospital
Boston, MA 02114
(617) 643-1432
(303) 880-3109

A webpage of interest:
http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/sylvester-response.html

 

[David Kastrup]

We're talking about Emacs. In particular we're referring to

C-h t
C-h i
C-h ?

Or, since Emacs is customizable, for me it would be

<f1> t
<f1> i
<f1> ?

Huh? The latter are available by default on Emacs 22.1.

 

[David Kastrup]

As I understand it, this will only work for ver 22 and later or if
you have tramp(?) installed. I have 2.3.1 (no tramp) and all I get is:

ftp> open su
ftp: su: Unknown host

I should think that version 2.3.1 would not even try ftp. Is that on
Multics?

I'm looking at upgrading to 22 for a couple other features, too.

You'll find that the last 30 years of development indeed make a
difference.

 

[Joel J. Adamson]

Yeah, and I abhor the elitist systems that are designed with the
philosophy that anyone who hasn't mastered years of arcane
memorization and training in just that one idiosyncratic system is /
ipso facto/ "stupid and unsophisticated". Most of us 6 and a half
billion people have better uses for our time, such as buckling in and
being promptly productive, once we're out of high school or college,
and fully three and a quarter of us are at least as smart as average,
and so /ipso facto/ *not* "stupid and unsophisticated".

You see, though, the problem is that computers are *not* easy to use.
People only say that they've been made easy to use in order to *sell*
things. The number one commodity in the technology business (with a
huge profit-margin attached to it) is "user-friendly." And it's
baloney! No one in my office that uses one of these supposedly
user-friendly machines thinks that it's actually easy to use. They
slam their keyboards and throw their hands up *every* day.

The only solution that really works is for people to _learn_ how to
use computers, and to accept that it will be a challenge.

And as for the arcane commands needed to get to the help page, their
on the splash screen. Have you used Emacs recently?

Joel
--
Joel J. Adamson
Biostatistician
Pediatric Psychopharmacology Research Unit
Massachusetts General Hospital
Boston, MA 02114
(617) 643-1432
(303) 880-3109

A webpage of interest:
http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/sylvester-response.html

 

[Lew]

My point is that I'm the sort of person that has a mind set up for
Emacs. I had none of the difficulties that someone else might have,
who's used to other kinds of software.

However, I'll also point out that my wife has used Emacs a couple
times, and she's never done more than point and click with a computer,
and she's had no frustration whatsoever.

A new user of two hours' experience. A father of a six-year old whose child
hums along happily with emacs. A computer widow who "had no frustration
whatsoever" with it.

To the claim that "emacs is too hard for the beginner" we have a mounting pile
of steaming evidence that refutes. It may still be true that it is too hard
for some beginners, but then again the power cord can be too hard for some
people. (I used to help customers find the Big Red Switch when they first got
a computer. There were many who needed it.)

To the claim that emacs has arcane keystrokes comes the evidence that modern
revs have "normal" keystrokes like right-arrow, F1, Ctrl-End.

To the claim that the help is too hard to use comes the evidence that three
simple keystroke patterns are all one needs to know, and anecdotal evidence of
the help system's utility.

Some will refuse to face the truth. To the open-minded, let the facts speak
for themselves.

I bet Xah Les is all over smiles about how well his controversy bloomed.

 

[notbob]

To the claim that "emacs is too hard for the beginner" we have a mounting pile
of steaming evidence that refutes. It may still be true that it is too hard
for some beginners......

I point them to jed. I, too, was overwhelmed by emacs, initially, but
can't stand vi so I had to do something. jed was my savior. It uses
many standard keys like backspace and the arrows, so newbs aren't so
confused. When I finally became comfortable with the std emacs
keystrokes I got O'Reilly's great book and ventured into emacs. Love
it. But, still a rank newb and still use jed and slrn a lot till I
can learn to configure emacs like I want it.

vi, the heart of evil!

nb

 

[notbob]

I should think that version 2.3.1 would not even try ftp. Is that on
Multics?

Slackware 10.1

nb

 

[Lew]

I point them to jed. I, too, was overwhelmed by emacs, initially, but
can't stand vi so I had to do something. jed was my savior. It uses
many standard keys like backspace and the arrows, so newbs aren't so
confused.

You mean compared to the way emacs also uses the same "standard" keys, like
backspace and the arrows? How are the arrow keys in emacs more confusing than
the arrow keys in jed?

Your comment reads like you've missed most of this thread.

 

[notbob]

Your comment reads like you've missed most of this thread.

This may be due to the fact I've missed most of this thread.

nb

 

[Robert Uhl]

Emacs is amazingly beginner-friendly for the power and flexibility it
provides. [snip]

That's a joke, right? I tried it a time or two. Every time it was
rapidly apparent that doing anything non-trivial would require
consulting a cheat sheet. The printed-out kind, since navigating to
the help and back without already having the help displayed and open
to the command reference was also non-trivial.

C-h i, C-x b RET is non-trivial?!?

Four hours of wasted time later, with zero productivity to show for
it, I deleted it. The same thing happened again, so it wasn't a bad
day or a fluke or a one-off or the particular version, either.

If you'd spent half an hour using the tutorial (helpfully displayed
right there when you start emacs), you could have saved three and a half
hours of wasted time. And you'd now be using an actual text editor,
which is often helpful.

 

[Robert Uhl]

I think it is quite relevant. Clunky computer interfaces may not be so
dramatically dangerous, but they certainly can hamper productivity.

You're quite right. Windows/Mac user interfaces are so clunky that they
massively hamper productivity. Emacs, OTOH, enables it. For example,
C-s is search forward; C-r is search backward ('reverse'); C-M-s is
search forward for a regular expression; C-M-r is search backward for a
regular expression. A Windows or Mac editor would have C-s for save,
and that's it. It might have C-f for find, but it'd pop up a dialogue
instead of offering an interactive search, causing a mental context
switch. Searching would interrupt one's flow of thought rather than
being part of it.

Between Windows bugs and gratuitous misfeatures (e.g. DRM) and Unix
clunkiness, billions of dollars of potential productivity is lost
worldwide every *month*.

You left out user refusal to learn...

--
Robert Uhl <http://public.xdi.org/=ruhl>
If I could sum up my life in one sentence, I think it would be: He was born, he
lived, and then he kept on living, much longer than anyone had ever lived
before, getting richer and richer and glowing with a bright white light.
--Deep Thoughts, by Jack Handey [1999]