The most popular program for designing of web pages... which one?

Discussion in 'HTML' started by iwach, Dec 24, 2008.

  1. iwach

    iwach Guest

    Commercial or... free?

    Front Page drives me mad!
     
    iwach, Dec 24, 2008
    #1
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  2. iwach

    richard Guest

    richard, Dec 25, 2008
    #2
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  3. iwach

    Chaddy2222 Guest

    Chaddy2222, Dec 25, 2008
    #3
  4. On 2008-12-24, iwach wrote:
    > Commercial or... free?


    GNU emacs.

    --
    Chris F.A. Johnson, webmaster <http://Woodbine-Gerrard.com>
    ===================================================================
    Author:
    Shell Scripting Recipes: A Problem-Solution Approach (2005, Apress)
     
    Chris F.A. Johnson, Dec 25, 2008
    #4
  5. iwach

    C A Upsdell Guest

    Re: The most popular program for designing of web pages... whichone?

    iwach wrote:
    > Commercial or... free?
    >
    > Front Page drives me mad!


    No wonder. FrontPage was killed off two years ago, replaced by
    Expression Web.
     
    C A Upsdell, Dec 25, 2008
    #5
  6. Blinky the Shark, Dec 25, 2008
    #6
  7. iwach

    David Segall Guest

    iwach <> wrote:

    >Commercial or... free?
    >
    >Front Page drives me mad!

    If you are looking for a WYSIWYG HTML editor then Dreamweaver
    <http://www.adobe.com/products/dreamweaver/> is probably "the most
    popular". It is expensive but has several significant advantages over
    KompoZer <http://kompozer.net/> which is free.
     
    David Segall, Dec 25, 2008
    #7
  8. iwach

    houghi Guest

    Blinky the Shark wrote:
    >
    >
    > iwach wrote:
    >
    >> Commercial or... free?

    >
    > vi, vim, gvim. Free. Cross platform.


    For the first basic layout I use is http://www.kompozer.net/
    After that I split things up in parts and use 'include' in php and have
    a local webserver running. That way a refresh will show what the rest of
    the world would see, including database content.

    I will have several browsers do the refresh. Firefox is the standard.
    After larger changes I will check also with Konqueror, Opera and IE 6
    and 7.

    After that is is vim or gvim on my Linux and Notepad++ on my Windows.

    houghi
    --
    This was written under the influence of the following:
    | Artist : Santana
    | Song : Aspirations
    | Album : Borboletta
     
    houghi, Dec 25, 2008
    #8
  9. iwach

    richard Guest

    On Thu, 25 Dec 2008 12:52:02 GMT, David Segall <>
    wrote:

    >iwach <> wrote:
    >
    >>Commercial or... free?
    >>
    >>Front Page drives me mad!

    >If you are looking for a WYSIWYG HTML editor then Dreamweaver
    ><http://www.adobe.com/products/dreamweaver/> is probably "the most
    >popular". It is expensive but has several significant advantages over
    >KompoZer <http://kompozer.net/> which is free.


    I have dreamweaver and don't see where it's any better than any other
    decent editor.
    Yeah it has some frills not found elsewhere, but so what?

    Kompozer ain't all that great either.
     
    richard, Dec 25, 2008
    #9
  10. iwach

    DLU Guest

    Re: The most popular program for designing of web pages... whichone?

    iwach wrote:
    > Commercial or... free?
    >
    > Front Page drives me mad!


    At the risk of getting hammered by the professionals, I have Expression
    Web. I am just a real beginner but I can understand the setup for making
    pages, and there are templates. I would like to have Dream Weaver, but
    can not justify the price as my efforts are voluntary for a committee
    that I am on. Some of the people on the NG seem to be able construct a
    web page from memory using a text editor so they do not have to deal
    with these issues.

    As I have discovered it is the CSS that is the hard part and I do not
    know what Dream Weaver does with that. Expression Web is pretty easy to
    use but it does not help with the CSS. Someday, someone will write a
    concise explanation of CSS and how each element works. I tried to learn
    Latin once and I think it might have been easier. I learned DEC
    assembly language, PL1, Compass (Cyber Assembly language),Fortran,
    Basic, Pascal, C, and application programs like SPSS, but figuring out
    how to make layouts with CSS is making me bonkers. Maybe it it just age
    catching up.

    http://home.surewest.net/bikesac/bikesac/
    --
    ***************************************
    * This is the Spammish Inquisition *
    * Not Lumber Cartel Unit 75 [TINLC] *
    * I am not SPEWS.ORG *
    ***************************************
     
    DLU, Dec 25, 2008
    #10
  11. iwach

    iwach Guest

    Re: The most popular program for designing of web pages... whichone?

    DLU wrote:

    > As I have discovered it is the CSS that is the hard part and I do not
    > know what Dream Weaver does with that. Expression Web is pretty easy to
    > use but it does not help with the CSS. Someday, someone will write a
    > concise explanation of CSS and how each element works. I tried to learn
    > Latin once and I think it might have been easier. I learned DEC
    > assembly language, PL1, Compass (Cyber Assembly language),Fortran,
    > Basic, Pascal, C, and application programs like SPSS, but figuring out
    > how to make layouts with CSS is making me bonkers. Maybe it it just age
    > catching up.
    >
    > http://home.surewest.net/bikesac/bikesac/


    Trying to use EW and I have to agree, there is a problem with css. I'm
    looking for a program, which will let mi work in a simple manner. I can
    select a text, div,table or whichever object, than select a class, id,
    apply to it in a matter of flash and I can see immediately, how it will
    look in a browser.

    Front Page was not bad so far but latest xhtml making it difficult and
    it's further than ever from being WYSIWYG.

    IMHO typing all by hand is like walking instead of driving. In age of
    computers , where we have programs like PTOOLS, Adobe Photoshop or
    AutoCad, typing by hand all commands makes it Flinstone' kind of
    progress in web page design.

    It's sux!
     
    iwach, Dec 28, 2008
    #11
  12. iwach

    rf Guest

    iwach wrote:
    > DLU wrote:
    >
    >> As I have discovered it is the CSS that is the hard part and I do not
    >> know what Dream Weaver does with that. Expression Web is pretty
    >> easy to use but it does not help with the CSS. Someday, someone
    >> will write a concise explanation of CSS and how each element works.


    There are no elements in CSS. There are rules and property/value pairs.

    The specification details exactly how each of these work.

    > Trying to use EW and I have to agree, there is a problem with css. I'm
    > looking for a program, which will let mi work in a simple manner. I
    > can select a text, div,table or whichever object, than select a
    > class, id, apply to it in a matter of flash


    Therein lies the way to CSS bloat, applying the same style to each and every
    div on a page where it would be far better to apply that style to the body
    and let the divs inherit. Have a look at some of the pages these so called
    "WYSIWYG" editors spit out. Better yet, look at something that has been
    "saved as web page" by something like word or excel or, &deity forbid,
    powerpoint. Dreadfull stuff. Every single CSS property is specified for
    every single html element. No inheritance anywhere.

    > and I can see
    > immediately, how it will look in a browser.


    That is exactly how I do it. Type in the html or CSS in crimson editor,
    save, refresh the two or three browsers I have pointing to the page. Relying
    on some "WYSIWYG" tool to display how a page might look will not work. You
    *must* view it in the various browsers.
    >
    > Front Page was not bad


    Front page in particular uses the IE engine to display a page. It is sheer
    folly to use anything related to IE for web development. Use a *real*
    browser and then just before beta check it with IE (several versions) to
    make sure IE does not break something that is perfectly valid according to
    the spec and real browsers.

    > so far but latest xhtml making it difficult and


    Don't use xhtml. Use html 4.01.

    > it's further than ever from being WYSIWYG.


    That is not how the web works. You will never get a page to look the same in
    every browser so why try?

    > IMHO typing all by hand is like walking instead of driving. In age of
    > computers , where we have programs like PTOOLS, Adobe Photoshop or
    > AutoCad, typing by hand all commands makes it Flinstone' kind of
    > progress in web page design.
    >
    > It's sux!


    No. It works.
     
    rf, Dec 28, 2008
    #12
  13. iwach

    DLU Guest

    Re: The most popular program for designing of web pages... whichone?

    rf wrote:
    > iwach wrote:
    >> DLU wrote:
    >>
    >>> As I have discovered it is the CSS that is the hard part and I do not
    >>> know what Dream Weaver does with that. Expression Web is pretty
    >>> easy to use but it does not help with the CSS. Someday, someone
    >>> will write a concise explanation of CSS and how each element works.

    >
    > There are no elements in CSS. There are rules and property/value pairs.
    >
    > The specification details exactly how each of these work.
    >
    >> Trying to use EW and I have to agree, there is a problem with css. I'm
    >> looking for a program, which will let mi work in a simple manner. I
    >> can select a text, div,table or whichever object, than select a
    >> class, id, apply to it in a matter of flash

    >

    Actually as I look over the menus in Expression Web, there are several
    options that allow CSS construction. Looking through the Task Panes I
    gives you several options. You can make these selections in EW. It
    takes awhile to learn to use EW, but I know a couple of people who took
    classes for a year to learn Dream Weaver. I did not go through the
    program step by step as I had a site to get up. Once it was up and
    running I started to work to improve it. I could see that there was
    work to be done so subjected myself to the slings an arrows of this NG.
    Fortunately I got some really good help along the way. It had not
    occurred to me to put the different sections in their own boxes. Then
    it took me a lot of examination to see how it was actually done.


    --
    ***************************************
    * This is the Spammish Inquisition *
    * Not Lumber Cartel Unit 75 [TINLC] *
    * I am not SPEWS.ORG *
    ***************************************
     
    DLU, Dec 28, 2008
    #13
  14. iwach

    dorayme Guest

    In article
    <4956daee$0$22131$>,
    iwach <> wrote:

    > IMHO typing all by hand is like walking instead of driving. In age of
    > computers , where we have programs like PTOOLS, Adobe Photoshop or
    > AutoCad, typing by hand all commands makes it Flinstone' kind of
    > progress in web page design.


    Except that this is a misleading description of what many of us, who do
    not use prgms like DW and Frontpage and EW, do. After a while we can
    always find something we or someone has done and modify it more or less.

    --
    dorayme
     
    dorayme, Dec 28, 2008
    #14
  15. iwach

    Bergamot Guest

    Re: The most popular program for designing of web pages... whichone?

    iwach wrote:
    >
    > IMHO typing all by hand is like walking instead of driving.


    Funny, I can hand code a lot faster than using one of those so-called
    WYSIWYG things. I never know exactly what code is being generated and
    have to switch to code view to repair/optimize things anyway. It's just
    easier to do it by hand from the start.

    > typing by hand all commands makes it Flinstone' kind of
    > progress in web page design.


    There's your problem - designing and coding are 2 separate things. The
    design should be all worked out before you start coding.

    > It's sux!


    That's what I think of WYSIWYG tools. ;)

    --
    Berg
     
    Bergamot, Dec 28, 2008
    #15
  16. iwach

    iwach Guest

    Re: The most popular program for designing of web pages... whichone?

    Bergamot wrote:

    >> It's sux!

    >
    > That's what I think of WYSIWYG tools. ;)



    You mean no one is able to make a good tool for designing web pages.

    Because there is no one great program for web using WYSIWYG.

    We have WYSIWYG word processors, graphics tools, printing tools and
    nothing good quality for a simple web page.

    To make a simple web page you have to learn for years all these tricks
    with typing coding and working with all different bugs in different
    browsers.

    One day someone will show a brilliant idea how web should work and all
    this madness hopefully will be gone because this is crazy!

    To make box in the middle of page, put some text and couple pics anyone
    can make in Photoshop in 3 minute, in Word in 2 minutes, in Excel in 3
    minutes, in Adobe Reader 2 minute without any learning.

    But to do it in web you have to study few months!

    That sux!
     
    iwach, Dec 28, 2008
    #16
  17. iwach

    dorayme Guest

    In article
    <49573530$0$22100$>,
    iwach <> wrote:

    > To make box in the middle of page, put some text and couple pics anyone
    > can make in Photoshop in 3 minute, in Word in 2 minutes, in Excel in 3
    > minutes, in Adobe Reader 2 minute without any learning.
    >
    > But to do it in web you have to study few months!


    Just exactly what, in your opinion, would be the key features of a good
    WYSIWYG? Would it be to be able to put a box into the middle of page,
    some text and couple pics in all visual browsers at all the different
    text size settings that users use and still be usable? Would the page
    mean anything to a blind person? Would it be easy to update for someone
    with a different program or no program? Would a thousand things be true?

    The fact is that you probably would need to study for a few months
    before you could assess whether your efforts with the fancy WYSWIG are
    paying off (beyond looking great on your own machine with your eyesight
    and settings).

    --
    dorayme
     
    dorayme, Dec 28, 2008
    #17
  18. On 2008-12-28, iwach wrote:
    > Bergamot wrote:
    >
    >>> It's sux!

    >>
    >> That's what I think of WYSIWYG tools. ;)

    >
    > You mean no one is able to make a good tool for designing web pages.
    >
    > Because there is no one great program for web using WYSIWYG.


    I don't know of a good WYSIWYG program for anything.

    > We have WYSIWYG word processors, graphics tools, printing tools and
    > nothing good quality for a simple web page.


    I find a text editor faster than any WYSIWYG program.

    I am currently writing a book, and I find it far faster to write it
    in a text editor *as HTML* and import that into OpenOffice.org to
    convert it to the format the publisher requires (.doc; YECCHH!!).

    Using a word processor is like wallowing in molasses compared to a
    text editor, even if my text editor wasn't customized so that I
    rarely have to type a full pair of HTML tags.

    > To make a simple web page you have to learn for years all these tricks
    > with typing coding and working with all different bugs in different
    > browsers.


    HTML is simple. Valid HTML will work in all browsers. CSS is the
    tricky part, and that is far better done in a text editor.

    --
    Chris F.A. Johnson, webmaster <http://Woodbine-Gerrard.com>
    ===================================================================
    Author:
    Shell Scripting Recipes: A Problem-Solution Approach (2005, Apress)
     
    Chris F.A. Johnson, Dec 28, 2008
    #18
  19. iwach

    asdf Guest

    "Chris F.A. Johnson" <> wrote in message
    news:bd0e5$49576800$cef88ba3$...
    > On 2008-12-28, iwach wrote:
    >> Bergamot wrote:
    >>
    >>>> It's sux!
    >>>
    >>> That's what I think of WYSIWYG tools. ;)

    >>
    >> You mean no one is able to make a good tool for designing web pages.
    >>
    >> Because there is no one great program for web using WYSIWYG.

    >
    > I don't know of a good WYSIWYG program for anything.
    >
    >> We have WYSIWYG word processors, graphics tools, printing tools and
    >> nothing good quality for a simple web page.

    >
    > I find a text editor faster than any WYSIWYG program.
    >
    > I am currently writing a book, and I find it far faster to write it
    > in a text editor *as HTML* and import that into OpenOffice.org to
    > convert it to the format the publisher requires (.doc; YECCHH!!).
    >
    > Using a word processor is like wallowing in molasses compared to a
    > text editor, even if my text editor wasn't customized so that I
    > rarely have to type a full pair of HTML tags.
    >
    >> To make a simple web page you have to learn for years all these tricks
    >> with typing coding and working with all different bugs in different
    >> browsers.

    >
    > HTML is simple. Valid HTML will work in all browsers. CSS is the
    > tricky part, and that is far better done in a text editor.
    >


    hehehe... how many examples do you need of valid HTML not working in IE6?
    :)
     
    asdf, Dec 28, 2008
    #19
  20. iwach

    houghi Guest

    Re: The most popular program for designing of web pages... which one?

    Bergamot wrote:
    >> typing by hand all commands makes it Flinstone' kind of
    >> progress in web page design.

    >
    > There's your problem - designing and coding are 2 separate things. The
    > design should be all worked out before you start coding.


    Give this person a cigar. This is something almost everybody forgets all
    the time. I always start with a design on paper. The one I based my
    website houghi.org on is http://houghi.org/images/design02.jpg

    That is only the layput as I am a lousy designer (and not a very good
    coder) so I just stole a wallpaper, turned that and made it into a
    background. More on http://houghi.org/making/

    Too many times I see that people who do the design also do the coding
    and end up with nothing what they wanted. Sometimes I also see coders
    doing the design and it also ends up with nothing they wanted.

    The best way I have worked with others in the comapny was that one group
    of people came up with papers of how they see the site. This both in
    colour and what goes where. Also this is after we made a list of what
    everybody wanted.

    Then when the colours and so are selected for the different types of
    pages, we already have talked about usage and funtionality. When that
    part is over, we will see how updates and so on are done.

    When everything has been decided, we will start coding. Obviously the
    main coder will be invcolved in the whole process to call back the
    designers if things get unrealistic.

    To me there are three basic things
    1) Web design (including usage)
    2) Coding
    3) Content and content updating

    And all should work together.

    houghi
    --
    Always listen to experts. They'll tell you what can't be done,
    and why. Then do it.
    -- Heinlein : Time Enough For Love
     
    houghi, Dec 28, 2008
    #20
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