the Olson Timezone Database

Discussion in 'Java' started by Roedy Green, Feb 15, 2012.

  1. Roedy Green

    Roedy Green Guest

    The Olson timezone database is no more. An astrology company,
    Astrolabe, sued him, and he did not have the resources to fight back.

    So for now, nobody is keeping track of timezone changes. Java uses
    that database.

    A hope Anonymous soon gets round to putting these unprintables out of
    business.

    see http://mindprod.com/jgloss/timezone.html for details.
    --
    Roedy Green Canadian Mind Products
    http://mindprod.com
    One of the most useful comments you can put in a program is
    "If you change this, remember to change ?XXX? too".
    Roedy Green, Feb 15, 2012
    #1
    1. Advertising

  2. Roedy Green

    Eric Sosman Guest

    On 2/14/2012 9:28 PM, Roedy Green wrote:
    > The Olson timezone database is no more. An astrology company,
    > Astrolabe, sued him, and he did not have the resources to fight back.


    ... as reported in "The Register" -- four months and one
    week ago. In other news, rebels against the Crown are causing
    minor disturbances in some of the North American colonies.

    > So for now, nobody is keeping track of timezone changes. Java uses
    > that database.
    >
    > A hope Anonymous soon gets round to putting these unprintables out of
    > business.


    You call for acts of vandalism, not only in this newsgroup but
    also on your web site? IANAL, but ISTM that "incitement to offend"
    is itself an offense/offence in some jurisdictions. And even if it's
    not actually illegal, it is immoral and despicable to summon hoodlums
    to enforce your own ideas of Right. Vigilantism is not justice.

    I hope you will post a retraction here, and remove the "Burn
    their houses down" message from your site.

    --
    Eric Sosman
    d
    Eric Sosman, Feb 15, 2012
    #2
    1. Advertising

  3. Roedy Green

    Roedy Green Guest

    On Tue, 14 Feb 2012 23:01:14 -0500, Eric Sosman
    <> wrote, quoted or indirectly quoted
    someone who said :

    >
    > I hope you will post a retraction here, and remove the "Burn
    >their houses down" message from your site.


    What I said is already far milder than what I think. This sort of
    behaviour in inexcusable, and in the service of ASTROLOGY!!! splutter!

    --
    Roedy Green Canadian Mind Products
    http://mindprod.com
    One of the most useful comments you can put in a program is
    "If you change this, remember to change ?XXX? too".
    Roedy Green, Feb 15, 2012
    #3
  4. Roedy Green

    Roedy Green Guest

    On Tue, 14 Feb 2012 23:01:14 -0500, Eric Sosman
    <> wrote, quoted or indirectly quoted
    someone who said :

    > ... as reported in "The Register" -- four months and one
    >week ago. In other news, rebels against the Crown are causing
    >minor disturbances in some of the North American colonies.


    The link is on my site, so I am aware of that. Today is an important
    milestone in the story. JDK 1.7.0_03 came out -- the last version of
    Java to use the Olson database.

    This sort of information comes out well ahead of the implementation,
    so JDK 1.7.0_03 can have current timezone data even though Olson was
    shut down last year.

    However, the entire computing community has a problem. Unless these
    bastards are sued out of existence, the entire existing Olson database
    is in legal limbo. It might require rebuilding it from original
    sources in a clean room. But of course it might not exactly match the
    existing data. This is a nightmare. The only proper solution sending
    them packing. I suppose Oracle could settle, but that would really
    gall me. Astrolabe could then SELL this database over and over to
    everyone who needs timezone data. It would be outrageous that they
    would profit from such a deliberately malicious act. They can bully an
    individual like Olson, but surely not Oracle, IBM, ... I want them
    punished.


    --
    Roedy Green Canadian Mind Products
    http://mindprod.com
    One of the most useful comments you can put in a program is
    "If you change this, remember to change ?XXX? too".
    Roedy Green, Feb 15, 2012
    #4
  5. Roedy Green

    Eric Sosman Guest

    On 2/14/2012 11:41 PM, Roedy Green wrote:
    > On Tue, 14 Feb 2012 23:01:14 -0500, Eric Sosman
    > <> wrote, quoted or indirectly quoted
    > someone who said :
    >
    >>
    >> I hope you will post a retraction here, and remove the "Burn
    >> their houses down" message from your site.

    >
    > What I said is already far milder than what I think. This sort of
    > behaviour in inexcusable, and in the service of ASTROLOGY!!! splutter!


    You promote vandalism. That's all I need to know.

    --
    Eric Sosman
    d
    Eric Sosman, Feb 15, 2012
    #5
  6. Roedy Green

    David Lamb Guest

    On 15/02/2012 7:53 AM, Eric Sosman wrote:
    > On 2/14/2012 11:41 PM, Roedy Green wrote:
    >> On Tue, 14 Feb 2012 23:01:14 -0500, Eric Sosman
    >> <> wrote, quoted or indirectly quoted
    >> someone who said :
    >>> I hope you will post a retraction here, and remove the "Burn
    >>> their houses down" message from your site.

    >>
    >> What I said is already far milder than what I think. This sort of
    >> behaviour in inexcusable, and in the service of ASTROLOGY!!! splutter!

    >
    > You promote vandalism. That's all I need to know.


    I can't condone vandalism either, but if Roedy had said "let's use
    whatever legal means we can find to fight back" I'd have agreed
    enthusiastically. Creating/joining an Olson Database Legal Defence Fund
    might make sense.
    David Lamb, Feb 15, 2012
    #6
  7. Roedy Green

    markspace Guest

    On 2/14/2012 6:28 PM, Roedy Green wrote:
    > The Olson timezone database is no more. An astrology company,
    > Astrolabe, sued him, and he did not have the resources to fight back.
    >
    > So for now, nobody is keeping track of timezone changes. Java uses
    > that database.
    >
    > A hope Anonymous soon gets round to putting these unprintables out of
    > business.
    >
    > see http://mindprod



    I'd rather not see your mindprod site, as I prefer reliable sources.

    <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tz_database#2011_lawsuit>

    "2011 Lawsuit

    On September 30, 2011, a lawsuit, Astrolabe, Inc. v. Olson et
    al.,[11][12] was filed concerning copyright in the database. As a
    result, on October 6, 2011, the database's maintenance (mailing list)
    and dissemination (FTP site) operations were shut down.[13] The case
    revolves around the use by the database maintainers of the atlases The
    American Atlas by Thomas G. Shanks and The International Atlas by Thomas
    G. Shanks and Rique Pottenger. It specifically complains of unauthorised
    reproduction of the atlases' data in the timezone mailing list archive
    and in some auxiliary link collections maintained with the database, but
    doesn't actually point at the database itself. The complaint relates
    only to the compilation of historical timezone data, and does not cover
    current tzdata world timezone tables.[12][14][15] The tz database
    clearly references its sources, including the atlas, in comments,
    allowing the extent of use of the data to be evaluated.[16][17]
    [edit] Move to ICANN

    ICANN took responsibility for the maintenance of the database on October
    14, 2011.[18] The full database (including allegedly-infringing
    sections) and a description of current and future plans for its
    maintenance are available online from IANA.[19]"


    So the upshot is that it got moved to IANA, and the lawsuit really just
    complains about some data in the mailing list and links to other sites.
    The database itself is fine. Do some research next time before going
    off half-cocked.
    markspace, Feb 15, 2012
    #7
  8. On 15/02/2012 13:45, David Lamb wrote:
    > On 15/02/2012 7:53 AM, Eric Sosman wrote:
    >> On 2/14/2012 11:41 PM, Roedy Green wrote:
    >>> On Tue, 14 Feb 2012 23:01:14 -0500, Eric Sosman
    >>> <> wrote, quoted or indirectly quoted
    >>> someone who said :
    >>>> I hope you will post a retraction here, and remove the "Burn
    >>>> their houses down" message from your site.
    >>>
    >>> What I said is already far milder than what I think. This sort of
    >>> behaviour in inexcusable, and in the service of ASTROLOGY!!! splutter!

    >>
    >> You promote vandalism. That's all I need to know.

    >
    > I can't condone vandalism either, but if Roedy had said "let's use
    > whatever legal means we can find to fight back" I'd have agreed
    > enthusiastically. Creating/joining an Olson Database Legal Defence Fund
    > might make sense.
    >


    Haven't IANA taken over?

    http://www.iana.org/time-zones

    --
    RGB
    RedGrittyBrick, Feb 15, 2012
    #8
  9. On 15/02/2012 17:31, RedGrittyBrick wrote:
    > On 15/02/2012 13:45, David Lamb wrote:
    >> On 15/02/2012 7:53 AM, Eric Sosman wrote:
    >>> On 2/14/2012 11:41 PM, Roedy Green wrote:
    >>>> On Tue, 14 Feb 2012 23:01:14 -0500, Eric Sosman
    >>>> <> wrote, quoted or indirectly quoted
    >>>> someone who said :
    >>>>> I hope you will post a retraction here, and remove the "Burn
    >>>>> their houses down" message from your site.
    >>>>
    >>>> What I said is already far milder than what I think. This sort of
    >>>> behaviour in inexcusable, and in the service of ASTROLOGY!!! splutter!
    >>>
    >>> You promote vandalism. That's all I need to know.

    >>
    >> I can't condone vandalism either, but if Roedy had said "let's use
    >> whatever legal means we can find to fight back" I'd have agreed
    >> enthusiastically. Creating/joining an Olson Database Legal Defence Fund
    >> might make sense.
    >>

    >
    > Haven't IANA taken over?
    >
    > http://www.iana.org/time-zones
    >



    http://www.icann.org/en/news/releases/release-14oct11-en.pdf

    October 14, 2011

    For Immediate Release

    ICANN to Manage Time Zone Database

    The Internet Corporation for Assigned Names and Numbers (ICANN) today
    took over operation of an Internet Time Zone Database that is used by a
    number of major computer systems.

    ICANN agreed to manage the database after receiving a request from the
    Internet Engineering Task Force (IETF). The database contains time zone
    code and data that computer programs and operating systems such as Unix,
    Linux, Java, and Oracle rely on to determine the correct time
    for a given location. Modifications to the database occur frequently
    throughout the year.

    "The time zone database is used by a large number of commercial
    operating systems and the software applications,†said Russ Housely,
    chairman of the IETF. “Incorrect time zone information will impact
    many everyday activities, including meeting and conference call
    coordination, airplane and train schedules, physical package delivery
    notices, and astronomical observatories."

    For nearly three decades, the TZ Database had been maintained by a group
    of dedicated volunteers, in particular, Arthur David Olson at the US
    National Institutes of Health. Olson coordinated the group,
    managed the data, and created a platform for their release.

    Olson’s announced retirement prompted the IETF to turn to ICANN to
    ensure continued operation of the database. "The Time Zone Database
    provides an essential service on the Internet and keeping it operational
    falls within ICANN’s mission of maintaining a stable and dependable
    Internet,†said Akram Atallah, ICANN's Chief Operating Officer

    --
    RGB
    RedGrittyBrick, Feb 15, 2012
    #9
  10. Roedy Green

    Lew Guest

    On Tuesday, February 14, 2012 6:28:55 PM UTC-8, Roedy Green wrote:
    > The Olson timezone database is no more. An astrology company,
    > Astrolabe, sued him, and he did not have the resources to fight back.
    >
    > So for now, nobody is keeping track of timezone changes. Java uses
    > that database.
    >
    > A hope Anonymous soon gets round to putting these unprintables out of
    > business.


    Oh, so you support those criminal schmucks? Anonymous are tools. Idiots.
    Vandals. Scum. Script kiddies. F**k Anonymous.

    --
    Lew
    Lew, Feb 15, 2012
    #10
  11. Roedy Green

    Jeff Higgins Guest

    On 02/15/2012 12:31 PM, RedGrittyBrick wrote:
    > On 15/02/2012 13:45, David Lamb wrote:
    >> On 15/02/2012 7:53 AM, Eric Sosman wrote:
    >>> On 2/14/2012 11:41 PM, Roedy Green wrote:
    >>>> On Tue, 14 Feb 2012 23:01:14 -0500, Eric Sosman
    >>>> <> wrote, quoted or indirectly quoted
    >>>> someone who said :
    >>>>> I hope you will post a retraction here, and remove the "Burn
    >>>>> their houses down" message from your site.
    >>>>
    >>>> What I said is already far milder than what I think. This sort of
    >>>> behaviour in inexcusable, and in the service of ASTROLOGY!!! splutter!
    >>>
    >>> You promote vandalism. That's all I need to know.

    >>
    >> I can't condone vandalism either, but if Roedy had said "let's use
    >> whatever legal means we can find to fight back" I'd have agreed
    >> enthusiastically. Creating/joining an Olson Database Legal Defence Fund
    >> might make sense.
    >>

    >
    > Haven't IANA taken over?
    >
    > http://www.iana.org/time-zones
    >

    Browsing a tz mailing list archive, available here:
    <https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/tz>,
    I see no calls for vigilantism. Shame, Roedy.

    I was happy to be made aware of the issue and
    to get a glimpse of the complexities involved.
    <http://mm.icann.org/pipermail/tz/2011-October/008156.html>
    Jeff Higgins, Feb 15, 2012
    #11
  12. Roedy Green

    David Lamb Guest

    On 15/02/2012 12:35 PM, RedGrittyBrick wrote:
    > http://www.icann.org/en/news/releases/release-14oct11-en.pdf
    > October 14, 2011
    > For Immediate Release
    > ICANN to Manage Time Zone Database


    Yay! No mention of the astrologers, I see. In any case it would be
    harder to win a fight against ICANN than against a private individual.
    David Lamb, Feb 15, 2012
    #12
  13. Roedy Green

    Jeff Higgins Guest

    On 02/15/2012 01:46 PM, Jeff Higgins wrote:
    > On 02/15/2012 12:31 PM, RedGrittyBrick wrote:
    >> On 15/02/2012 13:45, David Lamb wrote:
    >>> On 15/02/2012 7:53 AM, Eric Sosman wrote:
    >>>> On 2/14/2012 11:41 PM, Roedy Green wrote:
    >>>>> On Tue, 14 Feb 2012 23:01:14 -0500, Eric Sosman
    >>>>> <> wrote, quoted or indirectly quoted
    >>>>> someone who said :
    >>>>>> I hope you will post a retraction here, and remove the "Burn
    >>>>>> their houses down" message from your site.
    >>>>>
    >>>>> What I said is already far milder than what I think. This sort of
    >>>>> behaviour in inexcusable, and in the service of ASTROLOGY!!! splutter!
    >>>>
    >>>> You promote vandalism. That's all I need to know.
    >>>
    >>> I can't condone vandalism either, but if Roedy had said "let's use
    >>> whatever legal means we can find to fight back" I'd have agreed
    >>> enthusiastically. Creating/joining an Olson Database Legal Defence Fund
    >>> might make sense.


    <https://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2012/01/just-facts-lawsuit-against-timezone-database-deserves-sanctions>

    >>>

    >>
    >> Haven't IANA taken over?
    >>
    >> http://www.iana.org/time-zones
    >>

    > Browsing a tz mailing list archive, available here:
    > <https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/tz>,
    > I see no calls for vigilantism. Shame, Roedy.
    >
    > I was happy to be made aware of the issue and
    > to get a glimpse of the complexities involved.
    > <http://mm.icann.org/pipermail/tz/2011-October/008156.html>
    >

    Actually, the whole thread was interesting.
    <http://mm.icann.org/pipermail/tz/2011-October/thread.html#8156>
    Jeff Higgins, Feb 15, 2012
    #13
  14. Roedy Green

    Jeff Higgins Guest

    Jeff Higgins, Feb 15, 2012
    #14
  15. Roedy Green

    Arne Vajhøj Guest

    On 2/14/2012 9:28 PM, Roedy Green wrote:
    > The Olson timezone database is no more. An astrology company,
    > Astrolabe, sued him, and he did not have the resources to fight back.
    >
    > So for now, nobody is keeping track of timezone changes. Java uses
    > that database.
    >
    > A hope Anonymous soon gets round to putting these unprintables out of
    > business.


    That is hoping a criminal group commits a crime against
    a legal business.

    Very close to encouraging such an act and thereby potentially
    become liable if it actually happened.

    Arne
    Arne Vajhøj, Feb 16, 2012
    #15
  16. Roedy Green

    Arne Vajhøj Guest

    On 2/14/2012 11:41 PM, Roedy Green wrote:
    > On Tue, 14 Feb 2012 23:01:14 -0500, Eric Sosman
    > <> wrote, quoted or indirectly quoted
    > someone who said :
    >> I hope you will post a retraction here, and remove the "Burn
    >> their houses down" message from your site.

    >
    > What I said is already far milder than what I think. This sort of
    > behaviour in inexcusable, and in the service of ASTROLOGY!!! splutter!


    Inexcusable behavior it not a very good reason to violate the law.

    Arne
    Arne Vajhøj, Feb 16, 2012
    #16
  17. Roedy Green

    Arne Vajhøj Guest

    On 2/15/2012 11:45 AM, markspace wrote:
    > On 2/14/2012 6:28 PM, Roedy Green wrote:
    >> The Olson timezone database is no more. An astrology company,
    >> Astrolabe, sued him, and he did not have the resources to fight back.
    >>
    >> So for now, nobody is keeping track of timezone changes. Java uses
    >> that database.
    >>
    >> A hope Anonymous soon gets round to putting these unprintables out of
    >> business.
    >>
    >> see http://mindprod

    >
    >
    > I'd rather not see your mindprod site, as I prefer reliable sources.
    >
    > <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tz_database#2011_lawsuit>
    >
    > "2011 Lawsuit
    >
    > On September 30, 2011, a lawsuit, Astrolabe, Inc. v. Olson et
    > al.,[11][12] was filed concerning copyright in the database. As a
    > result, on October 6, 2011, the database's maintenance (mailing list)
    > and dissemination (FTP site) operations were shut down.[13] The case
    > revolves around the use by the database maintainers of the atlases The
    > American Atlas by Thomas G. Shanks and The International Atlas by Thomas
    > G. Shanks and Rique Pottenger. It specifically complains of unauthorised
    > reproduction of the atlases' data in the timezone mailing list archive
    > and in some auxiliary link collections maintained with the database, but
    > doesn't actually point at the database itself. The complaint relates
    > only to the compilation of historical timezone data, and does not cover
    > current tzdata world timezone tables.[12][14][15] The tz database
    > clearly references its sources, including the atlas, in comments,
    > allowing the extent of use of the data to be evaluated.[16][17]
    > [edit] Move to ICANN
    >
    > ICANN took responsibility for the maintenance of the database on October
    > 14, 2011.[18] The full database (including allegedly-infringing
    > sections) and a description of current and future plans for its
    > maintenance are available online from IANA.[19]"
    >
    >
    > So the upshot is that it got moved to IANA, and the lawsuit really just
    > complains about some data in the mailing list and links to other sites.
    > The database itself is fine. Do some research next time before going off
    > half-cocked.


    And worse - Roedy has not corrected his page yet - a half day
    after being told by several people that the information is
    incorrect.

    Arne
    Arne Vajhøj, Feb 16, 2012
    #17
  18. Roedy Green

    Lew Guest

    On Wednesday, February 15, 2012 5:19:19 PM UTC-8, Arne Vajhøj wrote:
    > On 2/14/2012 9:28 PM, Roedy Green wrote:
    > > The Olson timezone database is no more. An astrology company,
    > > Astrolabe, sued him, and he did not have the resources to fight back.
    > >
    > > So for now, nobody is keeping track of timezone changes. Java uses
    > > that database.
    > >
    > > A hope Anonymous soon gets round to putting these unprintables out of
    > > business.

    >
    > That is hoping a criminal group commits a crime against
    > a legal business.
    >
    > Very close to encouraging such an act and thereby potentially
    > become liable if it actually happened.


    Not likely. Canada has a notion of the right to free speech, and it would be a
    hard sell to produce a preponderance of evidence that such an obviously
    emotional and hypothetical comment as this in any way adds to or incites
    Anonymous's stupid and hypocritical destructive actions. The worst you can
    legitimately accuse Roedy of is a boneheaded remark, not an actionable one.

    --
    Lew
    Lew, Feb 16, 2012
    #18
  19. Roedy Green

    Eric Sosman Guest

    On 2/15/2012 8:23 PM, Arne Vajhøj wrote:
    > On 2/15/2012 11:45 AM, markspace wrote:
    >> On 2/14/2012 6:28 PM, Roedy Green wrote:
    >>> The Olson timezone database is no more. An astrology company,
    >>> Astrolabe, sued him, and he did not have the resources to fight back.
    >>>
    >>> So for now, nobody is keeping track of timezone changes. Java uses
    >>> that database.
    >>>
    >>> A hope Anonymous soon gets round to putting these unprintables out of
    >>> business.
    >>>
    >>> see http://mindprod

    >>
    >>
    >> I'd rather not see your mindprod site, as I prefer reliable sources.
    >>
    >> <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tz_database#2011_lawsuit>
    >>
    >> "2011 Lawsuit
    >>
    >> On September 30, 2011, a lawsuit, Astrolabe, Inc. v. Olson et
    >> al.,[11][12] was filed concerning copyright in the database. As a
    >> result, on October 6, 2011, the database's maintenance (mailing list)
    >> and dissemination (FTP site) operations were shut down.[13] The case
    >> revolves around the use by the database maintainers of the atlases The
    >> American Atlas by Thomas G. Shanks and The International Atlas by Thomas
    >> G. Shanks and Rique Pottenger. It specifically complains of unauthorised
    >> reproduction of the atlases' data in the timezone mailing list archive
    >> and in some auxiliary link collections maintained with the database, but
    >> doesn't actually point at the database itself. The complaint relates
    >> only to the compilation of historical timezone data, and does not cover
    >> current tzdata world timezone tables.[12][14][15] The tz database
    >> clearly references its sources, including the atlas, in comments,
    >> allowing the extent of use of the data to be evaluated.[16][17]
    >> [edit] Move to ICANN
    >>
    >> ICANN took responsibility for the maintenance of the database on October
    >> 14, 2011.[18] The full database (including allegedly-infringing
    >> sections) and a description of current and future plans for its
    >> maintenance are available online from IANA.[19]"
    >>
    >>
    >> So the upshot is that it got moved to IANA, and the lawsuit really just
    >> complains about some data in the mailing list and links to other sites.
    >> The database itself is fine. Do some research next time before going off
    >> half-cocked.

    >
    > And worse - Roedy has not corrected his page yet - a half day
    > after being told by several people that the information is
    > incorrect.


    He's too busy lighting torches and sharpening the tines of
    pitchforks.

    An irony: He calls for vandalizing somebody who attempts to assert
    intellectual property rights. At the same time, his very own web site
    plasters "copyright" symbols *on other peoples' code and posts*. Yes,
    our own InformationWantsToBeFree Green claims copyright on some of *my*
    contributions -- and I bet if you look a little, you'll find that he
    claims to own some of yours, too.

    --
    Eric Sosman
    d
    Eric Sosman, Feb 16, 2012
    #19
  20. Roedy Green

    Lew Guest

    Gordon Levi wrote:
    > Lew wrote:
    >
    > >On Tuesday, February 14, 2012 6:28:55 PM UTC-8, Roedy Green wrote:
    > >> The Olson timezone database is no more. An astrology company,
    > >> Astrolabe, sued him, and he did not have the resources to fight back.
    > >>
    > >> So for now, nobody is keeping track of timezone changes. Java uses
    > >> that database.
    > >>
    > >> A hope Anonymous soon gets round to putting these unprintables out of
    > >> business.

    > >
    > >Oh, so you support those criminal schmucks? Anonymous are tools. Idiots.
    > >Vandals. Scum. Script kiddies. F**k Anonymous.

    >
    > The first rule of computer security which you have just broken is to
    > avoid setting yourself up as a target. You probably already know the
    > HBGary story <http://tinyurl.com/4k6gzr9> and you must agree that the
    > vandalism was not carried out by "script kiddies".


    Are you threatening me?

    I thought Anonymous were in *favor* of free speech. That's their line, anyway,
    do schmuckly things in the name of individual rights, isn't it? Am I a bank? A
    government? A spy agency? No, I'm just someone who's not afraid to point out
    that Anonymous are evil, stupid bastards. And script kiddies. Assholes. They
    should change their name to "AA" - "Assholes Anonymous".

    And I'm not afraid of you, either.

    --
    Lew
    Lew, Feb 16, 2012
    #20
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