The Revenge of the Geeks

Discussion in 'Java' started by Ramon F Herrera, Jan 22, 2013.

  1. Ramon F Herrera, Jan 22, 2013
    #1
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  2. Ramon F Herrera

    Melzzzzz Guest

    On Tue, 22 Jan 2013 06:41:45 -0800, Ramon F Herrera wrote:

    > Oracle has getting a lot of attacks.
    >
    > "A close look at how Oracle installs deceptive software with Java
    > updates"
    >
    > http://www.zdnet.com/a-close-look-at-how-oracle-installs-deceptive-

    software-with-java-updates-7000010038/?s_cid=e539
    >
    > I can fathom how a software like Java could end up in the hands of a
    > company like Oracle...
    >
    > -Ramon


    You meen this only hits Windows, as on Linux OpenJDK is installed usuall
    way ? ;)
    Melzzzzz, Jan 22, 2013
    #2
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  3. On Jan 22, 8:41 am, Ramon F Herrera <> wrote:
    > Oracle has getting a lot of attacks.
    >
    >     "A close look at how Oracle installs deceptive software with Java
    > updates"
    >
    > http://www.zdnet.com/a-close-look-at-how-oracle-installs-deceptive-so...
    >
    > I can fathom how a software like Java could end up in the hands of a
    > company like Oracle...
    >
    > -Ramon


    Ed: "Can't fathom"

    -RFH
    Ramon F Herrera, Jan 22, 2013
    #3
  4. Ramon F Herrera

    joel garry Guest

    On Jan 22, 6:41 am, Ramon F Herrera <> wrote:
    > Oracle has getting a lot of attacks.
    >
    >     "A close look at how Oracle installs deceptive software with Java
    > updates"
    >
    > http://www.zdnet.com/a-close-look-at-how-oracle-installs-deceptive-so...
    >
    > I can fathom how a software like Java could end up in the hands of a
    > company like Oracle...
    >
    > -Ramon


    I like the oxymoron "sane Windows user."

    The authors doth protest too much, methinks. They have their own
    agenda of selling their own snake oil.

    We know how Oracle wound up with java. Sun fucked up, Larry swooped
    in and got loads of intellectual property and engineering expertise
    for pennies on the dollar. It's the American way!

    jg
    --
    @home.com is bogus.
    This idiot doesn't even realize Amazon's cloud offering partners with
    Oracle: http://readwrite.com/2013/01/22/sorry-larry-but-oracles-cloud-bs-is-wearing-thin
    joel garry, Jan 22, 2013
    #4
  5. Ramon F Herrera

    Lew Guest

    cipher wrote:
    > Java is dying on the home desktop. Maybe other places as well...


    Evidence?

    In order for something to be dying, it had to have been alive first, and
    then declined.

    Evidence for "home desktop" and "other places" is necessary for your
    statement to be anything other than blatant trolling.

    --
    Lew
    Lew, Jan 23, 2013
    #5
  6. Ramon F Herrera

    Arne Vajhøj Guest

    On 1/22/2013 8:02 PM, Lew wrote:
    > cipher wrote:
    >> Java is dying on the home desktop. Maybe other places as well...

    >
    > Evidence?
    >
    > In order for something to be dying, it had to have been alive first, and
    > then declined.
    >
    > Evidence for "home desktop" and "other places" is necessary for your
    > statement to be anything other than blatant trolling.


    I suspect that he read in one of the advocacy groups om the dist list.

    Arne
    Arne Vajhøj, Jan 23, 2013
    #6
  7. On 1/22/2013 7:07 PM, cipher wrote:
    > On Tue, 22 Jan 2013 08:54:53 -0800, joel garry Inscribed upon the Golden
    >> We know how Oracle wound up with java. Sun fucked up, Larry swooped in
    >> and got loads of intellectual property and engineering expertise for
    >> pennies on the dollar. It's the American way!

    >
    > Java is dying on the home desktop. Maybe other places as well...


    Depend on your definition of dying.

    According to statowl those with Java installed has dropped from
    81% to 66%.

    Arne
    Arne Vajhøj, Jan 23, 2013
    #7
  8. On 1/22/2013 9:55 AM, Melzzzzz wrote:
    > On Tue, 22 Jan 2013 06:41:45 -0800, Ramon F Herrera wrote:
    >> Oracle has getting a lot of attacks.
    >>
    >> "A close look at how Oracle installs deceptive software with Java
    >> updates"
    >>
    >> http://www.zdnet.com/a-close-look-at-how-oracle-installs-deceptive-

    > software-with-java-updates-7000010038/?s_cid=e539
    >>
    >> I can fathom how a software like Java could end up in the hands of a
    >> company like Oracle...

    >
    > You meen this only hits Windows, as on Linux OpenJDK is installed usuall
    > way ? ;)


    Obviously Oracle's business practice only applies to
    their Java implementations.

    They could put it in Oracle Java for Linux if they wanted to
    (I don't know if they actually have so).

    But IBM Java for Linux, OpenJDK for Linux, GCJ etc. are
    not under Oracles control (they do have some heavy influence
    on OpenJDK, but ...).

    Arne
    Arne Vajhøj, Jan 23, 2013
    #8
  9. Ramon F Herrera

    BGB Guest

    On 1/22/2013 7:02 PM, Lew wrote:
    > cipher wrote:
    >> Java is dying on the home desktop. Maybe other places as well...

    >
    > Evidence?
    >
    > In order for something to be dying, it had to have been alive first, and
    > then declined.
    >
    > Evidence for "home desktop" and "other places" is necessary for your
    > statement to be anything other than blatant trolling.
    >


    well, there is Minecraft and OpenOffice, which use Java and run on
    desktops...

    though hardly a big player, it is not entirely uncommon to run into
    software which depends on it.


    now, as for the Java installer: I have seen worse...

    at least it gives the option to opt out, as opposed to a few installers
    I ran into which just install a mountain of adware without giving any
    option to opt out.
    BGB, Jan 23, 2013
    #9
  10. Ramon F Herrera

    Arne Vajhøj Guest

    On 1/22/2013 9:41 AM, Ramon F Herrera wrote:
    > Oracle has getting a lot of attacks.
    >
    > "A close look at how Oracle installs deceptive software with Java
    > updates"
    >
    > http://www.zdnet.com/a-close-look-a...ware-with-java-updates-7000010038/?s_cid=e539


    I hate that too.

    But ...

    > I can fathom how a software like Java could end up in the hands of a
    > company like Oracle...


    Oracle is good at making money.

    SUN was not good at making money.

    So SUN's assets ended up in Oracle.

    It is all about $$$.

    Arne
    Arne Vajhøj, Jan 23, 2013
    #10
  11. In article
    <>,
    Ramon F Herrera <> wrote:

    > Oracle has getting a lot of attacks.
    >
    > "A close look at how Oracle installs deceptive software with Java
    > updates"
    >
    > http://www.zdnet.com/a-close-look-at-how-oracle-installs-deceptive-software-wi
    > th-java-updates-7000010038/?s_cid=e539
    >
    > I can fathom how a software like Java could end up in the hands of a
    > company like Oracle...
    >
    > -Ramon


    Thankfully, I don't run Windows anywhere so I don't get this. I'm
    surprised they don't bundle an AltaVista toolbar and a GIF clipart
    library from back in the days when desktop shovelware was common.

    Yes, it is a shame that Oracle runs Java but Sun wasn't so great at it
    either. Both pushed for high cost, high complexity "enterprise edition"
    libraries that come and go like fashion but dragged their feet on
    streamlining the language itself.
    --
    I will not see posts from Google because I must filter them as spam
    Kevin McMurtrie, Jan 23, 2013
    #11
  12. Ramon F Herrera

    BGB Guest

    On 1/22/2013 11:33 PM, Kevin McMurtrie wrote:
    > In article
    > <>,
    > Ramon F Herrera <> wrote:
    >
    >> Oracle has getting a lot of attacks.
    >>
    >> "A close look at how Oracle installs deceptive software with Java
    >> updates"
    >>
    >> http://www.zdnet.com/a-close-look-at-how-oracle-installs-deceptive-software-wi
    >> th-java-updates-7000010038/?s_cid=e539
    >>
    >> I can fathom how a software like Java could end up in the hands of a
    >> company like Oracle...
    >>
    >> -Ramon

    >
    > Thankfully, I don't run Windows anywhere so I don't get this. I'm
    > surprised they don't bundle an AltaVista toolbar and a GIF clipart
    > library from back in the days when desktop shovelware was common.
    >
    > Yes, it is a shame that Oracle runs Java but Sun wasn't so great at it
    > either. Both pushed for high cost, high complexity "enterprise edition"
    > libraries that come and go like fashion but dragged their feet on
    > streamlining the language itself.
    >


    much agreed...

    the lack of "streamlining" of the core language is admittedly one of my
    bigger complaints about Java at present.

    this is along with what few new features are added to the core language
    (and to the JVM) are IMO far too often via ugly hacks.
    BGB, Jan 23, 2013
    #12
  13. On 01/23/2013 02:21 AM, BGB wrote:
    > On 1/22/2013 11:33 PM, Kevin McMurtrie wrote:
    >> In article
    >> <>,
    >> Ramon F Herrera <> wrote:
    >>
    >>> Oracle has getting a lot of attacks.
    >>>
    >>> "A close look at how Oracle installs deceptive software with Java
    >>> updates"
    >>>
    >>> http://www.zdnet.com/a-close-look-at-how-oracle-installs-deceptive-software-wi
    >>>
    >>> th-java-updates-7000010038/?s_cid=e539
    >>>
    >>> I can fathom how a software like Java could end up in the hands of a
    >>> company like Oracle...
    >>>
    >>> -Ramon

    >>
    >> Thankfully, I don't run Windows anywhere so I don't get this. I'm
    >> surprised they don't bundle an AltaVista toolbar and a GIF clipart
    >> library from back in the days when desktop shovelware was common.
    >>
    >> Yes, it is a shame that Oracle runs Java but Sun wasn't so great at it
    >> either. Both pushed for high cost, high complexity "enterprise edition"
    >> libraries that come and go like fashion but dragged their feet on
    >> streamlining the language itself.
    >>

    >
    > much agreed...
    >
    > the lack of "streamlining" of the core language is admittedly one of my
    > bigger complaints about Java at present.
    >
    > this is along with what few new features are added to the core language
    > (and to the JVM) are IMO far too often via ugly hacks.


    I'm not too worried about Java the language being close to stagnant, so
    long as library development is up to par. Because if the solution I've
    selected includes the JVM, then often Scala or Clojure are better
    choices for high-productivity coding. Myself I don't care if Java the
    language ever gets updated again - it's not important. The innovation
    shifted away from Java the language years ago; there are better JVM
    options now.

    So I would disagree with both you and Kevin that "streamlining" the core
    language is all that important. You can't do enough of it to core Java
    to make it worthwhile, without major changes. So why bother now? What's
    important actually *are* those "high cost, high complexity EE
    libraries", plus the later SE/EE-agnostic libraries like concurrency.

    90% of developer productivity is achieved by adept and informed use of
    what other people have written: libraries.

    AHS
    Arved Sandstrom, Jan 23, 2013
    #13
  14. Ramon F Herrera

    BGB Guest

    On 1/23/2013 3:25 AM, Arved Sandstrom wrote:
    > On 01/23/2013 02:21 AM, BGB wrote:
    >> On 1/22/2013 11:33 PM, Kevin McMurtrie wrote:
    >>> In article
    >>> <>,
    >>> Ramon F Herrera <> wrote:
    >>>
    >>>> Oracle has getting a lot of attacks.
    >>>>
    >>>> "A close look at how Oracle installs deceptive software with Java
    >>>> updates"
    >>>>
    >>>> http://www.zdnet.com/a-close-look-at-how-oracle-installs-deceptive-software-wi
    >>>>
    >>>>
    >>>> th-java-updates-7000010038/?s_cid=e539
    >>>>
    >>>> I can fathom how a software like Java could end up in the hands of a
    >>>> company like Oracle...
    >>>>
    >>>> -Ramon
    >>>
    >>> Thankfully, I don't run Windows anywhere so I don't get this. I'm
    >>> surprised they don't bundle an AltaVista toolbar and a GIF clipart
    >>> library from back in the days when desktop shovelware was common.
    >>>
    >>> Yes, it is a shame that Oracle runs Java but Sun wasn't so great at it
    >>> either. Both pushed for high cost, high complexity "enterprise edition"
    >>> libraries that come and go like fashion but dragged their feet on
    >>> streamlining the language itself.
    >>>

    >>
    >> much agreed...
    >>
    >> the lack of "streamlining" of the core language is admittedly one of my
    >> bigger complaints about Java at present.
    >>
    >> this is along with what few new features are added to the core language
    >> (and to the JVM) are IMO far too often via ugly hacks.

    >
    > I'm not too worried about Java the language being close to stagnant, so
    > long as library development is up to par. Because if the solution I've
    > selected includes the JVM, then often Scala or Clojure are better
    > choices for high-productivity coding. Myself I don't care if Java the
    > language ever gets updated again - it's not important. The innovation
    > shifted away from Java the language years ago; there are better JVM
    > options now.
    >
    > So I would disagree with both you and Kevin that "streamlining" the core
    > language is all that important. You can't do enough of it to core Java
    > to make it worthwhile, without major changes. So why bother now? What's
    > important actually *are* those "high cost, high complexity EE
    > libraries", plus the later SE/EE-agnostic libraries like concurrency.
    >


    yes, but the lack of polish for the core language doesn't really make
    using Java a particularly attractive option when contrasted against,
    say, C++ or C#.

    like, it is the great battle of "all options being equal, what language
    will I use to write this?...".


    granted, yes, typically a person will work on a pre-existing project,
    and typically use whatever language(s) the project is already written in.


    > 90% of developer productivity is achieved by adept and informed use of
    > what other people have written: libraries.
    >


    potentially, but if a person can choose freely, all the major language
    options have libraries. not necessarily all the same libraries, but
    libraries none-the-less...


    I guess it is more of an issue what sorts of libraries one has the most
    use for, and IME, most of the libraries I am interested in seem to exist
    mostly in C and C++ land.

    sometimes C# is useful for quick-and-dirty GUI apps, and Paint.NET
    plugins, but otherwise it is a hard sell using a language which
    basically leaves one's apps tied to Windows (and on Mono, C++/CLI
    doesn't work, largely killing off most of what reason I might have for
    using it for much beyond quick-and-dirty GUI apps...).


    most of what I end up writing in C and C++ tends to be mostly algorithm
    heavy and math-heavy code, typically making lots of use of vector math
    and similar (where one can have both a nice vector interface, and
    optimize them via SSE intrinsics, ...). (like, where one spends a lot of
    time optimizing things in the quest for higher frame-rates...).

    granted, the big drawbacks in C and C++ land are the long compile times
    and lack of native dynamic-code-loading or eval, which is kind of why
    scripting languages are popular (and I have my own scripting language
    here, and recently went and wrote a new JIT for it as well, ...).


    or such...
    BGB, Jan 23, 2013
    #14
  15. On 1/23/2013 7:51 PM, cipher wrote:
    > On Tue, 22 Jan 2013 22:26:47 -0500, Arne Vajhøj Inscribed upon the Golden
    > Tablets of Usenet thusly:
    >
    >> On 1/22/2013 7:07 PM, cipher wrote:
    >>> On Tue, 22 Jan 2013 08:54:53 -0800, joel garry Inscribed upon the
    >>> Golden
    >>>> We know how Oracle wound up with java. Sun fucked up, Larry swooped
    >>>> in and got loads of intellectual property and engineering expertise
    >>>> for pennies on the dollar. It's the American way!
    >>>
    >>> Java is dying on the home desktop. Maybe other places as well...

    >>
    >> Depend on your definition of dying.
    >>
    >> According to statowl those with Java installed has dropped from 81% to
    >> 66%.

    >
    > 81% to 61% sure don't sound healthy...
    >
    > Java is dying. Period.


    http://dilbert.com/strips/comic/2013-01-18/

    Arne
    Arne Vajhøj, Jan 24, 2013
    #15
  16. Ramon F Herrera

    Arne Vajhøj Guest

    On 1/23/2013 12:33 AM, Kevin McMurtrie wrote:
    > Yes, it is a shame that Oracle runs Java but Sun wasn't so great at it
    > either. Both pushed for high cost, high complexity "enterprise edition"
    > libraries that come and go like fashion but dragged their feet on
    > streamlining the language itself.


    But those libraries often make a real big difference
    on the effort to write applications while language changes
    often has very little impact even though they make look cute.

    Arne
    Arne Vajhøj, Jan 24, 2013
    #16
  17. Ramon F Herrera

    Arne Vajhøj Guest

    On 1/23/2013 4:25 AM, Arved Sandstrom wrote:
    > On 01/23/2013 02:21 AM, BGB wrote:
    >> On 1/22/2013 11:33 PM, Kevin McMurtrie wrote:
    >>> In article
    >>> Yes, it is a shame that Oracle runs Java but Sun wasn't so great at it
    >>> either. Both pushed for high cost, high complexity "enterprise edition"
    >>> libraries that come and go like fashion but dragged their feet on
    >>> streamlining the language itself.

    >>
    >> much agreed...
    >>
    >> the lack of "streamlining" of the core language is admittedly one of my
    >> bigger complaints about Java at present.
    >>
    >> this is along with what few new features are added to the core language
    >> (and to the JVM) are IMO far too often via ugly hacks.

    >
    > I'm not too worried about Java the language being close to stagnant, so
    > long as library development is up to par. Because if the solution I've
    > selected includes the JVM, then often Scala or Clojure are better
    > choices for high-productivity coding. Myself I don't care if Java the
    > language ever gets updated again - it's not important. The innovation
    > shifted away from Java the language years ago; there are better JVM
    > options now.


    I am a bit skeptical about that as a general approach.

    If the situation were that Java programs were almost always correct
    but that what took time was writing all the boilerplate code, then
    switching to Scala would be an obvious choice.

    But I don't see that. I see a large portion of Java developers not
    mastering Java and switching them to Scala would be one big
    fucking disaster.

    > So I would disagree with both you and Kevin that "streamlining" the core
    > language is all that important. You can't do enough of it to core Java
    > to make it worthwhile, without major changes. So why bother now? What's
    > important actually *are* those "high cost, high complexity EE
    > libraries", plus the later SE/EE-agnostic libraries like concurrency.
    >
    > 90% of developer productivity is achieved by adept and informed use of
    > what other people have written: libraries.


    I completely agree.

    Arne
    Arne Vajhøj, Jan 24, 2013
    #17
  18. Ramon F Herrera

    Arne Vajhøj Guest

    On 1/23/2013 5:35 AM, BGB wrote:
    > On 1/23/2013 3:25 AM, Arved Sandstrom wrote:
    >> On 01/23/2013 02:21 AM, BGB wrote:
    >>> On 1/22/2013 11:33 PM, Kevin McMurtrie wrote:
    >>>> Yes, it is a shame that Oracle runs Java but Sun wasn't so great at it
    >>>> either. Both pushed for high cost, high complexity "enterprise
    >>>> edition"
    >>>> libraries that come and go like fashion but dragged their feet on
    >>>> streamlining the language itself.
    >>>
    >>> much agreed...
    >>>
    >>> the lack of "streamlining" of the core language is admittedly one of my
    >>> bigger complaints about Java at present.
    >>>
    >>> this is along with what few new features are added to the core language
    >>> (and to the JVM) are IMO far too often via ugly hacks.

    >>
    >> I'm not too worried about Java the language being close to stagnant, so
    >> long as library development is up to par. Because if the solution I've
    >> selected includes the JVM, then often Scala or Clojure are better
    >> choices for high-productivity coding. Myself I don't care if Java the
    >> language ever gets updated again - it's not important. The innovation
    >> shifted away from Java the language years ago; there are better JVM
    >> options now.
    >>
    >> So I would disagree with both you and Kevin that "streamlining" the core
    >> language is all that important. You can't do enough of it to core Java
    >> to make it worthwhile, without major changes. So why bother now? What's
    >> important actually *are* those "high cost, high complexity EE
    >> libraries", plus the later SE/EE-agnostic libraries like concurrency.

    >
    > yes, but the lack of polish for the core language doesn't really make
    > using Java a particularly attractive option when contrasted against,
    > say, C++ or C#.


    I don't think Java should worry about C++. For business apps, then
    C++ is not really an option. And business apps is what Java is good
    at.

    C# is a pretty good language.

    >> 90% of developer productivity is achieved by adept and informed use of
    >> what other people have written: libraries.
    >>

    >
    > potentially, but if a person can choose freely, all the major language
    > options have libraries. not necessarily all the same libraries, but
    > libraries none-the-less...


    Maybe in the SE space, but not in the EE space.

    Arne
    Arne Vajhøj, Jan 24, 2013
    #18
  19. On 1/23/2013 8:10 PM, cipher wrote:
    > On Wed, 23 Jan 2013 20:01:01 -0500, Arne Vajhøj Inscribed upon the Golden
    > Tablets of Usenet thusly:
    >
    >> On 1/23/2013 7:51 PM, cipher wrote:
    >>> On Tue, 22 Jan 2013 22:26:47 -0500, Arne Vajhøj Inscribed upon the
    >>> Golden Tablets of Usenet thusly:
    >>>
    >>>> On 1/22/2013 7:07 PM, cipher wrote:
    >>>>> On Tue, 22 Jan 2013 08:54:53 -0800, joel garry Inscribed upon the
    >>>>> Golden
    >>>>>> We know how Oracle wound up with java. Sun fucked up, Larry swooped
    >>>>>> in and got loads of intellectual property and engineering expertise
    >>>>>> for pennies on the dollar. It's the American way!
    >>>>>
    >>>>> Java is dying on the home desktop. Maybe other places as well...
    >>>>
    >>>> Depend on your definition of dying.
    >>>>
    >>>> According to statowl those with Java installed has dropped from 81% to
    >>>> 66%.
    >>>
    >>> 81% to 61% sure don't sound healthy...
    >>>
    >>> Java is dying. Period.

    >>
    >> http://dilbert.com/strips/comic/2013-01-18/
    >>

    >
    > <http://dilbert.com/strips/comic/2008-05-08/>


    We may be a bit old fashioned in the Java group.

    Facts is still considered a positive.

    Arne
    Arne Vajhøj, Jan 24, 2013
    #19
  20. Ramon F Herrera

    BGB Guest

    On 1/23/2013 7:17 PM, Arne Vajhøj wrote:
    > On 1/23/2013 5:35 AM, BGB wrote:
    >> On 1/23/2013 3:25 AM, Arved Sandstrom wrote:
    >>> On 01/23/2013 02:21 AM, BGB wrote:
    >>>> On 1/22/2013 11:33 PM, Kevin McMurtrie wrote:
    >>>>> Yes, it is a shame that Oracle runs Java but Sun wasn't so great at it
    >>>>> either. Both pushed for high cost, high complexity "enterprise
    >>>>> edition"
    >>>>> libraries that come and go like fashion but dragged their feet on
    >>>>> streamlining the language itself.
    >>>>
    >>>> much agreed...
    >>>>
    >>>> the lack of "streamlining" of the core language is admittedly one of my
    >>>> bigger complaints about Java at present.
    >>>>
    >>>> this is along with what few new features are added to the core language
    >>>> (and to the JVM) are IMO far too often via ugly hacks.
    >>>
    >>> I'm not too worried about Java the language being close to stagnant, so
    >>> long as library development is up to par. Because if the solution I've
    >>> selected includes the JVM, then often Scala or Clojure are better
    >>> choices for high-productivity coding. Myself I don't care if Java the
    >>> language ever gets updated again - it's not important. The innovation
    >>> shifted away from Java the language years ago; there are better JVM
    >>> options now.
    >>>
    >>> So I would disagree with both you and Kevin that "streamlining" the core
    >>> language is all that important. You can't do enough of it to core Java
    >>> to make it worthwhile, without major changes. So why bother now? What's
    >>> important actually *are* those "high cost, high complexity EE
    >>> libraries", plus the later SE/EE-agnostic libraries like concurrency.

    >>
    >> yes, but the lack of polish for the core language doesn't really make
    >> using Java a particularly attractive option when contrasted against,
    >> say, C++ or C#.

    >
    > I don't think Java should worry about C++. For business apps, then
    > C++ is not really an option. And business apps is what Java is good
    > at.
    >


    some of us never go anywhere near business apps though...


    for example, I am mostly at-present a game developer, with side areas in
    audio/video processing (writing codecs, ...), and am also into things
    like compilers and scripting VM technology.

    these are generally areas where C and C++ have a much stronger hold.


    > C# is a pretty good language.
    >


    in general, yes, it is ok.

    its main selling points IMO are its reasonably fast compile times and
    ease of quickly throwing together GUIs in WinForms, ...

    well, and also IntelliSense works in Visual Studio, but this ranges
    between helpful and very annoying.


    >>> 90% of developer productivity is achieved by adept and informed use of
    >>> what other people have written: libraries.
    >>>

    >>
    >> potentially, but if a person can choose freely, all the major language
    >> options have libraries. not necessarily all the same libraries, but
    >> libraries none-the-less...

    >
    > Maybe in the SE space, but not in the EE space.
    >


    AFAIK, Java EE costs money though, and I somehow suspect probably most
    end-users have Java SE installed.


    but, in any case, with the other languages there are a wide range of
    libraries available, many under fairly open licenses (like MIT or BSD),
    and there is a lot more GPL stuff available, although GPL has some of
    its own issues (can't really use GPL'ed code in developing proprietary
    software, ...).
    BGB, Jan 24, 2013
    #20
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