The Scale problem

Discussion in 'Java' started by Roedy Green, Apr 29, 2007.

  1. Roedy Green

    Roedy Green Guest

    I wrote about this problem many years ago as something I saw looming.
    Now its has arrived. http://mindprod.com/jgloss/resolution.html

    I have a new big high-res monitor and my Applets have shrunk to pin
    pricks with unreadably small type. People used to tease me for my
    outsized fonts and generous layouts. Now even they are far too small.
    How do you go about writing apps that will be readable on a wide
    variety of screens?

    I know JGoodies has some tools for resolution independent layout.. But
    I was wondering what could be done to existing apps that did not take
    a major rewrite. I can live with icons not being scaled.

    This needs to be builtin to Java so that when the user tells one
    app/Applet his desired zoom, it will automatically apply universally.
    --

    Roedy Green Canadian Mind Products
    The Java Glossary
    http://mindprod.com
     
    Roedy Green, Apr 29, 2007
    #1
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  2. Roedy Green wrote:
    > I wrote about this problem many years ago as something I saw looming.
    > Now its has arrived. http://mindprod.com/jgloss/resolution.html
    >
    > I have a new big high-res monitor and my Applets have shrunk to pin
    > pricks with unreadably small type. People used to tease me for my
    > outsized fonts and generous layouts. Now even they are far too small.
    > How do you go about writing apps that will be readable on a wide
    > variety of screens?
    >
    > I know JGoodies has some tools for resolution independent layout.. But
    > I was wondering what could be done to existing apps that did not take
    > a major rewrite. I can live with icons not being scaled.
    >
    > This needs to be builtin to Java so that when the user tells one
    > app/Applet his desired zoom, it will automatically apply universally.
    > --
    >
    > Roedy Green Canadian Mind Products
    > The Java Glossary
    > http://mindprod.com



    ummmmm as far as readibility goes, I figure you should still be able to
    read stuff. Why? because it IS high res. Most of us actually do want to
    fit more on our screens (at least I do) so,smaller yet still readable is
    a good thing...

    I use to draw alot of circuit board layouts yonks ago when montiros were
    crappy. Onscreen the tracks and pads often looked like they touched, yet
    when printed and according to specs, obviously they were fine. I'm sure
    a high res monitor at the time would have showed smaller, yet more
    reailistic image representations ie... pads and tracks would have
    appeared not to touch (on screen) as they should have been.

    R e a l e m a i l : t a n e @ m u g w h y .c o m
     
    Rangitane MacDonald, Apr 29, 2007
    #2
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  3. Roedy Green wrote:
    > I wrote about this problem many years ago as something I saw looming.
    > Now its has arrived. http://mindprod.com/jgloss/resolution.html
    >
    > I have a new big high-res monitor and my Applets have shrunk to pin
    > pricks with unreadably small type. People used to tease me for my
    > outsized fonts and generous layouts. Now even they are far too small.
    > How do you go about writing apps that will be readable on a wide
    > variety of screens?
    >
    > I know JGoodies has some tools for resolution independent layout.. But
    > I was wondering what could be done to existing apps that did not take
    > a major rewrite. I can live with icons not being scaled.
    >
    > This needs to be builtin to Java so that when the user tells one
    > app/Applet his desired zoom, it will automatically apply universally.
    > --
    >
    > Roedy Green Canadian Mind Products
    > The Java Glossary
    > http://mindprod.com


    I think it will soon be a really big problem. The new high resolution
    monitors are almost impossible to use for the user interface. I just
    did a big job that used a bunch of 1600x1200 resolution displays. We
    still had to have one monitor that was 1024x768 so we could display the
    GUI at a size that the user could read.

    Java needs a feature to scale the windows and their components so they
    are readable on high res monitors. It is unfortunate that Java sizes
    components by pixel rather than by physical dimension.

    The 1600x1200 displays are difficult enough but what is it going to be
    like when the monitors are 4000x3000?

    --

    Knute Johnson
    email s/nospam/knute/
     
    Knute Johnson, Apr 30, 2007
    #3
  4. Roedy Green wrote:
    > Knute Johnson wrote:
    >> I wrote about this problem many years ago as something I saw looming.
    >> Now its has arrived. http://mindprod.com/jgloss/resolution.html

    ...
    >I think it will soon be a really big problem. ..


    The mention in Roedy's page of PLAF's, got me to
    wonderring what could be done for 'poor old AWT'.

    Here is my 1st hackish attempt at producing a
    text size in an AWT based (TextArea/Label)
    applet, that adjusts according to the font size
    used for the HTML.
    <http://www.physci.org/test/textsize/>

    So far I have only seen it work for IE on one screen
    size. Does it work for you? (I want the details listed
    in the table at the bottom, ideally.)

    * If this technique were to be used for an AWT based
    GUI with many components, it would probably be
    better to iterate the available components, rather
    than explicitly code them as I did in this example.
    For Swing, the 'size aware' PLAF would obviously
    be the best tactic to pursue.

    --
    Message posted via http://www.javakb.com
     
    Andrew Thompson, Apr 30, 2007
    #4
  5. Roedy Green

    Dag Sunde Guest

    Andrew Thompson wrote:
    > Roedy Green wrote:
    >> Knute Johnson wrote:
    >>> I wrote about this problem many years ago as something I saw
    >>> looming. Now its has arrived.
    >>> http://mindprod.com/jgloss/resolution.html

    > ..
    >> I think it will soon be a really big problem. ..

    >
    > The mention in Roedy's page of PLAF's, got me to
    > wonderring what could be done for 'poor old AWT'.
    >
    > Here is my 1st hackish attempt at producing a
    > text size in an AWT based (TextArea/Label)
    > applet, that adjusts according to the font size
    > used for the HTML.
    > <http://www.physci.org/test/textsize/>
    >
    > So far I have only seen it work for IE on one screen
    > size. Does it work for you? (I want the details listed
    > in the table at the bottom, ideally.)
    >


    Works nicely in Firefox 2.0.0.3 with JRE 1.5.0_11

    --
    Dag.
     
    Dag Sunde, Apr 30, 2007
    #5
  6. Andrew Thompson wrote:

    > Here is my 1st hackish attempt at producing a
    > text size in an AWT based (TextArea/Label)
    > applet, that adjusts according to the font size
    > used for the HTML.
    > <http://www.physci.org/test/textsize/>
    >
    > So far I have only seen it work for IE on one screen
    > size. Does it work for you? (I want the details listed
    > in the table at the bottom, ideally.)


    Works well for me.

    Internet Explorer, 6.0.2800.1106, Sun, 1.6.0, 1440x900, 11px to 19px
    Mozilla Firefox, 2.0.0.3, Sun, 1.6.0, 1440x900, 9px to 167px(!)

    --
    Regards,

    Richard
     
    Richard Senior, Apr 30, 2007
    #6
  7. Richard Senior wrote:
    > Andrew T. wrote
    >> Here is my 1st hackish attempt ...

    ..
    >Internet Explorer, 6.0.2800.1106, Sun, 1.6.0, 1440x900, 11px to 19px


    I am a little dissapointed to hear that IE shows the
    same values as for a significantly smaller (1024x768)
    screen. Is the HTML and applet text roughly the
    same size? (It is in my tests.)

    >Mozilla Firefox, 2.0.0.3, Sun, 1.6.0, 1440x900, 9px to 167px(!)


    That is enormous! Does the applet force horizontal
    scrollbars before it hits this huge size?

    Thanks for the details - I'll update the page.

    --
    Andrew Thompson
    http://www.athompson.info/andrew/

    Message posted via http://www.javakb.com
     
    Andrew Thompson, Apr 30, 2007
    #7
  8. Andrew Thompson wrote:
    > Richard Senior wrote:
    >> Andrew T. wrote
    >>> Here is my 1st hackish attempt ...

    > .
    >> Internet Explorer, 6.0.2800.1106, Sun, 1.6.0, 1440x900, 11px to 19px

    >
    > I am a little dissapointed to hear that IE shows the
    > same values as for a significantly smaller (1024x768)
    > screen. Is the HTML and applet text roughly the
    > same size? (It is in my tests.)


    Roughly but not exactly. Using Arial as the default browser font, which
    seems the closest match to the sans-serif of the applet, I would estimate:

    Smallest: applet shows 11px (slightly smaller); browser I guess is 12px
    Smaller: looks the same
    Medium: applet shows 14px (slightly smaller); browser I guess is 15/16px
    Larger: applet shows 17px (slightly smaller); browser 18-20px and bold
    Largest: applet shows 19px (slightly smaller); browser 20-22px both bold

    >> Mozilla Firefox, 2.0.0.3, Sun, 1.6.0, 1440x900, 9px to 167px(!)

    >
    > That is enormous! Does the applet force horizontal
    > scrollbars before it hits this huge size?


    Scrollbars appear in the main browser window, not in the applet. The
    applet just gets proportionally bigger.

    The maximum font size shown by the applet, but not the minumum, depends
    on the default font in Firefox. If I set the default font to 9pt, I only
    ;) get up to 125px in the applet. If I set the default to 72pt, it goes
    from 9px to a billboard-tastic 1002px! At that size, the string "px."
    completely fills my 1440x900 screen!

    Something else I did notice was that, when the applet is so large that
    the paragraph to the right of it can't flow around it and has to go
    below, the right-hand edge of the applet sticks out of the yellow box. I
    suspect it's a browser/stylesheet issue - maybe to do with the margin of
    the yellow box. If I get it to about 30px and bring the right edge of
    the browser window in, the margin to the right of the yellow box pushes
    the yellow box in until the applet hangs out of the box, then the
    browser starts clipping the box and applet.

    --
    Regards,

    Richard
     
    Richard Senior, Apr 30, 2007
    #8
  9. Andrew Thompson wrote:
    >Roedy Green wrote:
    >> Knute Johnson wrote:
    >>> I wrote about this problem many years ago as something I saw looming.
    >>> Now its has arrived. http://mindprod.com/jgloss/resolution.html

    >...
    >>I think it will soon be a really big problem. ..

    ..
    >Here is my 1st hackish attempt at producing a
    >text (re)size in an AWT based (GUI)..


    ..and here is Swing (same caveats)
    <http://www.physci.org/test/textsize/swing.html>

    Particularly interested to hear any results for Opera,
    always had trouble with that (damnable) browser, or other
    non 'big 2' UA's (Safari, Konquerer, TenCentTraveller(?),
    Lynx, .. ;).

    --
    Andrew Thompson
    http://www.athompson.info/andrew/

    Message posted via JavaKB.com
    http://www.javakb.com/Uwe/Forums.aspx/java-general/200704/1
     
    Andrew Thompson, Apr 30, 2007
    #9
  10. Roedy Green

    Guest

    On Apr 30, 12:03 pm, "Andrew Thompson" <u32984@uwe> wrote:
    > Richard Senior wrote:
    > >Mozilla Firefox, 2.0.0.3, Sun, 1.6.0, 1440x900, 9px to 167px(!)


    The min size is probably limited by the configuration in the
    Preferences->Content->Fonts & Colors pane.

    Using 2.0.0.2 I can't go below 12px, but I can go up to 194px.
    Occasionally the applet gets cropped, not resized when first
    increasing the size and then going back to the minimum size. Then the
    12px applet is sometimes cropped.

    The problem with high-res monitors is not only with text sizes.
    Widgets like scrollbars also become quickly unusable. The Substance
    PLAF can already handle this and scale widgets. And Java 7 is supposed
    to scale, too. If Sun doesn't screw up once again.
     
    , Apr 30, 2007
    #10
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