The Sorry State of C++ Portability by Jeff Wofford

Discussion in 'C++' started by Lynn McGuire, Oct 30, 2012.

  1. Lynn McGuire

    Lynn McGuire Guest

    Lynn McGuire, Oct 30, 2012
    #1
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  2. Lynn McGuire

    Guest

    Thanks. I've been wondering about some of the
    same things. I'm not sure if this will help me
    figure out how to proceed, but it is still
    interesting. He also has some interesting
    articles about the Bible.
    , Oct 30, 2012
    #2
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  3. Lynn McGuire

    Jorgen Grahn Guest

    On Tue, 2012-10-30, Lynn McGuire wrote:
    > The Sorry State of C++ Portability by Jeff Wofford:
    > http://www.jeffwofford.com/?p=1102
    >
    > Living on the bleeding edge...


    I don't know what /your/ angle it, but to me that article says
    "Aargh! I choose to use a bleeding-edge revision of C++, and a
    compiler I want to use doesn't do it all yet!"

    It's wise to make sure you have tool support before you choose
    your technology.

    /Jorgen

    --
    // Jorgen Grahn <grahn@ Oo o. . .
    \X/ snipabacken.se> O o .
    Jorgen Grahn, Oct 30, 2012
    #3
  4. On 10/30/2012 02:27 AM, Lynn McGuire wrote:
    > The Sorry State of C++ Portability by Jeff Wofford:
    > http://www.jeffwofford.com/?p=1102


    That article should have been called "The Sorry State of Microsoft's C++
    Compiler".
    Oswald Jaskolla, Oct 30, 2012
    #4
  5. This comes from a non-C++ dedicant, but what's up with people always
    wanting more features and shortcuts when programming? Sounds like he's
    spoiled. You can see by the ways he non-casually refers to his A.I. as
    "non-trivial" that writing anything that isn't handled by some high
    level mechanism is some sort of accomplishment. And I like high level
    languages.

    On 10/29/2012 06:27 PM, Lynn McGuire wrote:
    > The Sorry State of C++ Portability by Jeff Wofford:
    > http://www.jeffwofford.com/?p=1102
    >
    > Living on the bleeding edge...
    >
    > Lynn
    Jason Benjamin, Oct 31, 2012
    #5
  6. Lynn McGuire

    Öö Tiib Guest

    On Wednesday, 31 October 2012 03:37:34 UTC+2, Jason Benjamin wrote:
    > This comes from a non-C++ dedicant, but what's up with people always
    > wanting more features and shortcuts when programming? Sounds like he's
    > spoiled. You can see by the ways he non-casually refers to his A.I. as
    > "non-trivial" that writing anything that isn't handled by some high
    > level mechanism is some sort of accomplishment. And I like high level
    > languages.


    I am not sure what you ask here? C++11? It is not shortcuts. C++11 did
    leap majorly forward in languages usability and efficiency and safety
    and usefulness and completeness of its standard library. Yes, it added
    some half-ripe things too. Game A.I.? Non-moronic A.I. is essential
    feature of non-boring computer game. Competing against game environment
    is boring as soon you realize how to fool it. No wonder he is proud.
    If he is saying that lack of support to variadic template parameter
    lists in Microsoft compilers is really stopping him in his tracks then
    yes, he *is* likely not engineer, perhaps just common breed blogger.
    Öö Tiib, Oct 31, 2012
    #6
  7. Lynn McGuire

    Rui Maciel Guest

    Lynn McGuire wrote:

    > The Sorry State of C++ Portability by Jeff Wofford:
    > http://www.jeffwofford.com/?p=1102


    The title doesn't fit the article, which is only about how MS Visual Studio
    fails to support C++11. And by now MS VS lagging behind, or MS dragging its
    feet, shouldn't come as a surprise to anyone.


    Rui Maciel
    Rui Maciel, Nov 1, 2012
    #7
  8. Lynn McGuire

    Jorgen Grahn Guest

    On Thu, 2012-11-01, Rui Maciel wrote:
    > Lynn McGuire wrote:
    >
    >> The Sorry State of C++ Portability by Jeff Wofford:
    >> http://www.jeffwofford.com/?p=1102

    >
    > The title doesn't fit the article, which is only about how MS Visual Studio
    > fails to support C++11. And by now MS VS lagging behind, or MS dragging its
    > feet, shouldn't come as a surprise to anyone.


    It surprised /me/, but maybe that's because I don't pay much attention
    to what MS does. I was under the impression that they were "on the
    bus" this time.

    (Perhaps we've forgotten how old-fashioned long release cycles work,
    now that we can have a new browser, Linux kernel, gcc, etc once a
    week?)

    /Jorgen

    --
    // Jorgen Grahn <grahn@ Oo o. . .
    \X/ snipabacken.se> O o .
    Jorgen Grahn, Nov 1, 2012
    #8
  9. Lynn McGuire

    Rui Maciel Guest

    Jorgen Grahn wrote:

    > It surprised /me/, but maybe that's because I don't pay much attention
    > to what MS does. I was under the impression that they were "on the
    > bus" this time.
    >
    > (Perhaps we've forgotten how old-fashioned long release cycles work,
    > now that we can have a new browser, Linux kernel, gcc, etc once a
    > week?)


    I don't believe it has anything to do with long release cycles. For
    example, although Microsoft directly participates in the revision processo
    for the C standard for years now, the company even fails to support C99. If
    you are the world's largest software company and you fail to support a
    standard that you helped shape even after a decade has passed, and in the
    process you've managed to churn out multiple incantations of an operating
    system, it's quite clear that it is an unwillingness issue.


    Rui Maciel
    Rui Maciel, Nov 1, 2012
    #9
  10. Lynn McGuire

    Stuart Guest

    Am 10/30/12 2:27 AM, schrieb Lynn McGuire:
    > The Sorry State of C++ Portability by Jeff Wofford:
    > http://www.jeffwofford.com/?p=1102
    >
    > Living on the bleeding edge...
    >
    > Lynn


    The author of this page states that "[...] variadic templates are
    tremendously helpful for building scriptable C++ objects and
    introspection systems, [...]". That's very interesting since the only
    use cases for variadic templates that I have encountered so far deal
    with a more sophisticated version of printf (as if C++ did not already
    offer IOstreams for that very purpose). I'd be quite interested in how
    variadic templates allow for introspection, but I'm afraid that the
    author will not shared his insights with us.

    Stuart
    Stuart, Nov 2, 2012
    #10
  11. Lynn McGuire

    Martin Ba Guest

    MS + C99 [was: Re: The Sorry State of C++ Portability by Jeff Wofford]

    On 01.11.2012 23:51, Rui Maciel wrote:
    > ...
    >
    > ... For
    > example, although Microsoft directly participates in the revision processo
    > for the C standard for years now, the company even fails to support C99. If
    > you are the world's largest software company and you fail to support a
    > standard that you helped shape even after a decade has passed, and in the
    > process you've managed to churn out multiple incantations of an operating
    > system, it's quite clear that it is an unwillingness issue.
    >


    Just out of curiosity - who actually needs (full) C99 on Windows?

    cheers,
    Martin
    Martin Ba, Nov 2, 2012
    #11
  12. Lynn McGuire

    Cholo Lennon Guest

    On Tuesday, October 30, 2012 4:44:02 PM UTC-3, Oswald Jaskolla wrote:
    > On 10/30/2012 02:27 AM, Lynn McGuire wrote:
    >
    > > The Sorry State of C++ Portability by Jeff Wofford:

    >
    > > http://www.jeffwofford.com/?p=1102

    >
    >
    >
    > That article should have been called "The Sorry State of Microsoft's C++
    >
    > Compiler".


    .... written by a silly guy who want to use the very new C++ features in a cross platform production code without checking its availability in all involved compilers... OMG!

    --
    Cholo Lennon
    Bs.As.
    ARG
    Cholo Lennon, Nov 2, 2012
    #12
  13. Lynn McGuire

    Bo Persson Guest

    Jorgen Grahn skrev 2012-11-01 22:50:
    > On Thu, 2012-11-01, Rui Maciel wrote:
    >> Lynn McGuire wrote:
    >>
    >>> The Sorry State of C++ Portability by Jeff Wofford:
    >>> http://www.jeffwofford.com/?p=1102

    >>
    >> The title doesn't fit the article, which is only about how MS Visual Studio
    >> fails to support C++11. And by now MS VS lagging behind, or MS dragging its
    >> feet, shouldn't come as a surprise to anyone.

    >
    > It surprised /me/, but maybe that's because I don't pay much attention
    > to what MS does. I was under the impression that they were "on the
    > bus" this time.
    >
    > (Perhaps we've forgotten how old-fashioned long release cycles work,
    > now that we can have a new browser, Linux kernel, gcc, etc once a
    > week?)
    >
    > /Jorgen
    >


    I think they just made a terrible mistake in their priority, similar to
    what they did 10 years ago, when VC++ 2002 with managed extensions flopped.

    The reports say that MS started to implement key C++11 features like
    variadic templates, but never finished because of lack of resources.

    "Fortunately" they just had enough time to implement support for Windows
    8, Windows RT, and the entirely new (and totally unasked for) C++/CX.


    Bo Persson
    Bo Persson, Nov 2, 2012
    #13
  14. Lynn McGuire

    Rui Maciel Guest

    Re: MS + C99 [was: Re: The Sorry State of C++ Portability by Jeff Wofford]

    Martin Ba wrote:

    > Just out of curiosity - who actually needs (full) C99 on Windows?


    Anyone who writes C programs that need to run on MS Windows.


    Rui Maciel
    Rui Maciel, Nov 2, 2012
    #14
  15. Lynn McGuire

    Werner Guest

    On Friday, November 2, 2012 2:52:36 PM UTC+2, Cholo Lennon wrote:

    > ... written by a silly guy who want to use the very new C++ features in a cross platform production code without checking its availability in all involved compilers... OMG!


    The best way to learn something new is to start using it.
    Not so silly... I would think. Visionary, perhaps.
    Werner, Nov 2, 2012
    #15
  16. Lynn McGuire

    Guest

    On Friday, November 2, 2012 9:36:20 AM UTC-4, Bo Persson wrote:
    > Jorgen Grahn skrev 2012-11-01 22:50:
    >
    > > On Thu, 2012-11-01, Rui Maciel wrote:

    >
    > >> Lynn McGuire wrote:

    >
    > >>

    >
    > >>> The Sorry State of C++ Portability by Jeff Wofford:

    >
    > >>> http://www.jeffwofford.com/?p=1102

    >
    > >>

    >
    > >> The title doesn't fit the article, which is only about how MS Visual Studio

    >
    > >> fails to support C++11. And by now MS VS lagging behind, or MS dragging its

    >
    > >> feet, shouldn't come as a surprise to anyone.

    >
    > >

    >
    > > It surprised /me/, but maybe that's because I don't pay much attention

    >
    > > to what MS does. I was under the impression that they were "on the

    >
    > > bus" this time.

    >
    > >

    >
    > > (Perhaps we've forgotten how old-fashioned long release cycles work,

    >
    > > now that we can have a new browser, Linux kernel, gcc, etc once a

    >
    > > week?)

    >
    > >

    >
    > > /Jorgen

    >
    > >

    >
    >
    >
    > I think they just made a terrible mistake in their priority, similar to
    >
    > what they did 10 years ago, when VC++ 2002 with managed extensions flopped.
    >
    >
    >
    > The reports say that MS started to implement key C++11 features like
    >
    > variadic templates, but never finished because of lack of resources.
    >
    >


    I've wondered about their priorities also. I wouldn't
    mind if they didn't get the variadics until later but
    wish they had support for some of the other new parts
    of the language.


    >
    > "Fortunately" they just had enough time to implement support for Windows
    >
    > 8, Windows RT, and the entirely new (and totally unasked for) C++/CX.
    >
    >


    I think the operating system work must seem like a better
    investment than C++ stuff.
    , Nov 2, 2012
    #16
  17. Lynn McGuire

    Ian Collins Guest

    On 11/03/12 05:24, Werner wrote:
    > On Friday, November 2, 2012 2:52:36 PM UTC+2, Cholo Lennon wrote:
    >
    >> ... written by a silly guy who want to use the very new C++ features in a cross platform production code without checking its availability in all involved compilers... OMG!

    >
    > The best way to learn something new is to start using it.
    > Not so silly...


    But using something before checking whether it is supported on a target
    platform is!

    > I would think. Visionary, perhaps.


    Foolhardy more like!

    --
    Ian Collins
    Ian Collins, Nov 2, 2012
    #17
  18. Lynn McGuire

    Nobody Guest

    On Sat, 03 Nov 2012 08:32:17 +1300, Ian Collins wrote:

    > But using something before checking whether it is supported on a target
    > platform is!


    It isn't clear whether some version of Windows was originally considered
    as a target platform, or if he just decided to try porting to Windows
    as an afterthought (the main target platform appears to be iOS).
    Nobody, Nov 2, 2012
    #18
  19. Lynn McGuire

    Jorgen Grahn Guest

    On Thu, 2012-11-01, Rui Maciel wrote:
    > Jorgen Grahn wrote:
    >
    >> It surprised /me/, but maybe that's because I don't pay much attention
    >> to what MS does. I was under the impression that they were "on the
    >> bus" this time.
    >>
    >> (Perhaps we've forgotten how old-fashioned long release cycles work,
    >> now that we can have a new browser, Linux kernel, gcc, etc once a
    >> week?)

    >
    > I don't believe it has anything to do with long release cycles. For
    > example, although Microsoft directly participates in the revision processo
    > for the C standard for years now, the company even fails to support C99.


    I'm aware of that, but I got the impression they were serious about C++.
    There are many failure modes in a large company; this doesn't have to
    be C99 all over again.

    > If you are the world's largest software company and you fail to support a
    > standard that you helped shape even after a decade has passed, and in the
    > process you've managed to churn out multiple incantations of an operating
    > system, it's quite clear that it is an unwillingness issue.


    You could call it unwillingless I guess ... but don't overestimate the
    power of Microsoft. I suspect their group of compiler people is
    rather small and isolated from the rest, and the core who know what
    they're /doing/ is even smaller. You can't just throw people at the
    problem ("hey, Bob from the Excel team is free; let's put him on C++
    lambdas!") so you have to prioritize.

    /Jorgen

    --
    // Jorgen Grahn <grahn@ Oo o. . .
    \X/ snipabacken.se> O o .
    Jorgen Grahn, Nov 3, 2012
    #19
  20. Lynn McGuire

    Jorgen Grahn Guest

    Re: MS + C99 [was: Re: The Sorry State of C++ Portability by JeffWofford]

    On Fri, 2012-11-02, Rui Maciel wrote:
    > Martin Ba wrote:
    >
    >> Just out of curiosity - who actually needs (full) C99 on Windows?

    >
    > Anyone who writes C programs that need to run on MS Windows.


    And the rest of us, so coworkers can't say "C99 is irrelevant, not
    even Microsoft implement it!"

    (Relevance for C++: some C99 features makes the language much more
    tolerable for people used to C++.)

    /Jorgen

    --
    // Jorgen Grahn <grahn@ Oo o. . .
    \X/ snipabacken.se> O o .
    Jorgen Grahn, Nov 3, 2012
    #20
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