The verdana 'problem'.

Discussion in 'HTML' started by Mike Barnard, Feb 20, 2008.

  1. Mike Barnard

    Mike Barnard Guest

    Hi.

    Yes, before you start saying this has been done to death, it has. But
    for all my reading about it I have not found a conclusion, just a list
    of percieved problems.

    I have googled and gone back in this group to 2003 and found lots of
    discussions saying where the problems are percieved to be, Lots of
    examples posted, using browsers and statistics that are years old.
    Looking at some very well done sites (to my untrained and I hope
    unprejudiced mind) I still see verdana used in the css.

    Without going into the same old discussions, my question is...

    Am I correct in thinking that the main problem with verdana is only if
    the page designer reduces the body size below 100%? (This reduces
    other fonts if the user doesn't have verdana, yadda yadda.) Therefore,
    if I use verdana but leave the body font at 100% there really is no
    problem.

    Right or wrong?

    And, again without the looooooong discussions please, what sans serif
    font families do you put in your sites as a general rule if you don't
    do verdana?

    Thanks.

    <fx ducks from forthcoming abuse!>

    Mike.
    Mike Barnard, Feb 20, 2008
    #1
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  2. Mike Barnard

    Els Guest

    Mike Barnard wrote:

    > Am I correct in thinking that the main problem with verdana is only if
    > the page designer reduces the body size below 100%? (This reduces
    > other fonts if the user doesn't have verdana, yadda yadda.) Therefore,
    > if I use verdana but leave the body font at 100% there really is no
    > problem.
    >
    > Right or wrong?


    Right.

    > And, again without the looooooong discussions please, what sans serif
    > font families do you put in your sites as a general rule if you don't
    > do verdana?


    I don't use verdana anymore, but when I did, it was Arial, Helvetica,
    and a Linux font that I don't remember the name of.

    > Thanks.


    Welcome :)

    > <fx ducks from forthcoming abuse!>


    You can duck, but you can't hide :p

    --
    Els http://locusmeus.com/
    Els, Feb 20, 2008
    #2
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  3. Mike Barnard

    Els Guest

    Els wrote:
    > Mike Barnard wrote:
    >
    >> And, again without the looooooong discussions please, what sans serif
    >> font families do you put in your sites as a general rule if you don't
    >> do verdana?

    >
    > I don't use verdana anymore, but when I did, it was Arial, Helvetica,
    > and a Linux font that I don't remember the name of.


    Oops, misread the question. Read it as 'fall-back fonts'.
    These days my favourite is "Trebuchet MS", with a fall-back to "Suse
    Sans" and Verdana followed by Arial and Helvetica.

    --
    Els http://locusmeus.com/
    Els, Feb 20, 2008
    #3
  4. Mike Barnard

    Adrian Guest

    Mike Barnard wrote:
    > Hi.
    >
    > Yes, before you start saying this has been done to death, it has. But
    > for all my reading about it I have not found a conclusion, just a list
    > of percieved problems.
    >
    > I have googled and gone back in this group to 2003 and found lots of
    > discussions saying where the problems are percieved to be, Lots of
    > examples posted, using browsers and statistics that are years old.
    > Looking at some very well done sites (to my untrained and I hope
    > unprejudiced mind) I still see verdana used in the css.
    >
    > Without going into the same old discussions, my question is...
    >
    > Am I correct in thinking that the main problem with verdana is only if
    > the page designer reduces the body size below 100%? (This reduces
    > other fonts if the user doesn't have verdana, yadda yadda.) Therefore,
    > if I use verdana but leave the body font at 100% there really is no
    > problem.
    >
    > Right or wrong?
    >
    > And, again without the looooooong discussions please, what sans serif
    > font families do you put in your sites as a general rule if you don't
    > do verdana?
    >
    > Thanks.
    >
    > <fx ducks from forthcoming abuse!>
    >
    > Mike.


    Why not concisely state your question?
    Adrian, Feb 20, 2008
    #4
  5. Mike Barnard

    Guest

    On Feb 20, 12:57 pm, Mike Barnard wrote:
    > Yes, before you start saying this has been done to death, it has. But
    > for all my reading about it I have not found a conclusion, just a list
    > of percieved problems.


    I presume you added to the list of fonts the generic sans-serif
    font-family:verdana, sans-serif
    (sorry, I do not know what the problem is.)
    , Feb 20, 2008
    #5
  6. Mike Barnard wrote:
    >
    > Am I correct in thinking that the main problem with verdana is only if
    > the page designer reduces the body size below 100%? (This reduces
    > other fonts if the user doesn't have verdana, yadda yadda.) Therefore,
    > if I use verdana but leave the body font at 100% there really is no
    > problem.
    >
    > Right or wrong?


    Well, the point is that for Verdana 100% leaves it larger than it ought
    to be.
    >
    > And, again without the looooooong discussions please, what sans serif
    > font families do you put in your sites as a general rule if you don't
    > do verdana?


    When it's up to me, I just put "sans-serif".
    Harlan Messinger, Feb 20, 2008
    #6
  7. Mike Barnard

    mrcakey Guest

    "Els" <> wrote in message
    news:...
    > Els wrote:
    >> Mike Barnard wrote:
    >>
    >>> And, again without the looooooong discussions please, what sans serif
    >>> font families do you put in your sites as a general rule if you don't
    >>> do verdana?

    >>
    >> I don't use verdana anymore, but when I did, it was Arial, Helvetica,
    >> and a Linux font that I don't remember the name of.

    >
    > Oops, misread the question. Read it as 'fall-back fonts'.
    > These days my favourite is "Trebuchet MS", with a fall-back to "Suse
    > Sans" and Verdana followed by Arial and Helvetica.
    >


    That's my favourite too! I fall back to Geneva then Arial/Helvetica though.
    I like Tahoma for headings too.

    +mrcakey
    mrcakey, Feb 20, 2008
    #7
  8. Mike Barnard

    mrcakey Guest

    "Mike Barnard" <> wrote in message
    news:...
    > Hi.
    >
    > Am I correct in thinking that the main problem with verdana is only if
    > the page designer reduces the body size below 100%? (This reduces
    > other fonts if the user doesn't have verdana, yadda yadda.) Therefore,
    > if I use verdana but leave the body font at 100% there really is no
    > problem.
    >


    Essentially yes, the main problem with Verdana (other than it's not
    especially attractive) is that it's too big, which means that designers tend
    to scale it down. Thing is, snipping any font down below 100% is likely to
    cause readability problems for some. Some naive users may not know how to
    rescale upwards. But the main problem is when the user doesn't have that
    font on their system (e.g. Mac users) - the replacement font is also scaled
    down and that may have been a normal size in the first place. So even more
    users may have problems reading it.

    If you're happy to leave it at 100% then go ahead, but the flow of your text
    will look quite different in UAs where it isn't available.

    +mrcakey
    mrcakey, Feb 20, 2008
    #8
  9. Mike Barnard

    Els Guest

    mrcakey wrote:
    > "Els" <> wrote in message
    > news:...


    >> These days my favourite is "Trebuchet MS", with a fall-back to "Suse
    >> Sans" and Verdana followed by Arial and Helvetica.

    >
    > That's my favourite too! I fall back to Geneva then Arial/Helvetica though.


    Geneva is not bad either indeed, but Trebuchet MS is present on my Mac
    too, so when would you ever get to see it, if Trebuchet is your first
    choice?

    > I like Tahoma for headings too.


    Yup, good for headings. Not so sure about body text though, a bit too
    dense for my taste.

    --
    Els http://locusmeus.com/
    Els, Feb 20, 2008
    #9
  10. Mike Barnard

    Andy Dingley Guest

    On 20 Feb, 12:57, Mike Barnard <>
    wrote:

    > Therefore,
    > if I use verdana but leave the body font at 100% there really is no
    > problem.
    >
    > Right or wrong?


    Wrong. The size will still be wrong if Verdana does come into play.

    However this is now just "wrong" as in "not what was intended", rather
    than "wrong" as in "not what was intended and also unreadably small".
    Andy Dingley, Feb 20, 2008
    #10
  11. Mike Barnard

    Nik Coughlin Guest

    "Mike Barnard" <> wrote in message
    news:...
    > And, again without the looooooong discussions please, what sans serif
    > font families do you put in your sites as a general rule if you don't
    > do verdana?


    "Calibri", "Trebuchet MS", sans-serif;

    Calibri is generally only present on Vista and some XP machines (anything
    with Office 2007 for starters, or with the Office 2007 compatibility pack,
    or even the various free Office viewers) but that's a pretty big number of
    machines and it's quite a nice font. Trebuchet MS is on pretty much
    everything and is quite nice if slightly kooky looking.
    Nik Coughlin, Feb 20, 2008
    #11
  12. Mike Barnard

    Neredbojias Guest

    Well bust mah britches and call me cheeky, on Wed, 20 Feb 2008 12:57:04
    GMT Mike Barnard scribed:

    > Therefore,
    > if I use verdana but leave the body font at 100% there really is no
    > problem.
    >
    > Right or wrong?


    I don't think it's a question of right or wrong but how it looks with
    both Verdana and another more-normal size typical font. For instance,
    narrow columns would probably be more of a problem than full-width lines
    of text. Also, some page layouts are more "text-critical" than others.

    As for the objection in regards to its availability, I'd say enough
    people have it to make that a paltry objection. Still, you should
    incorporate a default like:

    font-family:Verdana,sans-serif;

    in case some radical excises it from his/her system or whatever.

    Someone mentioned it wasn't particularly attractive, but I most heartily
    disagree. I've used it considerably in the past and will probably use
    it non-sparingly in the future.

    --
    Neredbojias
    http://www.neredbojias.com/
    Great sights and sounds
    Neredbojias, Feb 20, 2008
    #12
  13. Els wrote:

    > Mike Barnard wrote:
    >
    >> Am I correct in thinking that the main problem with verdana is only if
    >> the page designer reduces the body size below 100%? (This reduces
    >> other fonts if the user doesn't have verdana, yadda yadda.) Therefore,
    >> if I use verdana but leave the body font at 100% there really is no
    >> problem.
    >>
    >> Right or wrong?

    >
    > Right.
    >
    >> And, again without the looooooong discussions please, what sans serif
    >> font families do you put in your sites as a general rule if you don't
    >> do verdana?

    >
    > I don't use verdana anymore, but when I did, it was Arial, Helvetica,
    > and a Linux font that I don't remember the name of.


    Penguin Compressed? ;)

    Hey, they press ducks, don't they?


    --
    Blinky
    Killing all posts from Google Groups
    The Usenet Improvement Project: http://improve-usenet.org
    Blinky: http://blinkynet.net
    Blinky the Shark, Feb 20, 2008
    #13
  14. Mike Barnard

    Els Guest

    Blinky the Shark wrote:

    > Els wrote:
    >
    >> Mike Barnard wrote:
    >>
    >>> Am I correct in thinking that the main problem with verdana is only if
    >>> the page designer reduces the body size below 100%? (This reduces
    >>> other fonts if the user doesn't have verdana, yadda yadda.) Therefore,
    >>> if I use verdana but leave the body font at 100% there really is no
    >>> problem.
    >>>
    >>> Right or wrong?

    >>
    >> Right.
    >>
    >>> And, again without the looooooong discussions please, what sans serif
    >>> font families do you put in your sites as a general rule if you don't
    >>> do verdana?

    >>
    >> I don't use verdana anymore, but when I did, it was Arial, Helvetica,
    >> and a Linux font that I don't remember the name of.

    >
    > Penguin Compressed? ;)


    <g>
    No, that wasn't it.

    > Hey, they press ducks, don't they?


    No idea - who does, and are they live ducks or dead ones, and how do
    they do it and why? :)

    --
    Els http://locusmeus.com/
    Els, Feb 20, 2008
    #14
  15. Els wrote:

    > Blinky the Shark wrote:
    >> Penguin Compressed? ;)

    >
    > <g>
    > No, that wasn't it.
    >
    >> Hey, they press ducks, don't they?

    >
    > No idea - who does, and are they live ducks or dead ones, and how do
    > they do it and why? :)


    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pressed_duck

    --
    -bts
    -Are you still hungry?
    Beauregard T. Shagnasty, Feb 20, 2008
    #15
  16. Els wrote:

    > Blinky the Shark wrote:
    >
    >> Els wrote:
    >>
    >>> Mike Barnard wrote:
    >>>
    >>>> Am I correct in thinking that the main problem with verdana is only if
    >>>> the page designer reduces the body size below 100%? (This reduces
    >>>> other fonts if the user doesn't have verdana, yadda yadda.) Therefore,
    >>>> if I use verdana but leave the body font at 100% there really is no
    >>>> problem.
    >>>>
    >>>> Right or wrong?
    >>>
    >>> Right.
    >>>
    >>>> And, again without the looooooong discussions please, what sans serif
    >>>> font families do you put in your sites as a general rule if you don't
    >>>> do verdana?
    >>>
    >>> I don't use verdana anymore, but when I did, it was Arial, Helvetica,
    >>> and a Linux font that I don't remember the name of.

    >>
    >> Penguin Compressed? ;)

    >
    > <g>
    > No, that wasn't it.


    Hey, I tried. Like with sex and hand grenades, it's the thought that
    counts. Wait. No, that's not right...

    >> Hey, they press ducks, don't they?

    >
    > No idea - who does, and are they live ducks or dead ones, and how do
    > they do it and why? :)


    http://fxcuisine.com/default.asp?Display=13


    --
    Blinky
    Killing all posts from Google Groups
    The Usenet Improvement Project: http://improve-usenet.org
    Blinky: http://blinkynet.net
    Blinky the Shark, Feb 20, 2008
    #16
  17. Beauregard T. Shagnasty wrote:

    > Els wrote:
    >
    >> Blinky the Shark wrote:
    >>> Penguin Compressed? ;)

    >>
    >> <g>
    >> No, that wasn't it.
    >>
    >>> Hey, they press ducks, don't they?

    >>
    >> No idea - who does, and are they live ducks or dead ones, and how do
    >> they do it and why? :)

    >
    > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pressed_duck


    More detail, and images, here. It's quite a process:

    http://fxcuisine.com/default.asp?Display=13


    --
    Blinky
    Killing all posts from Google Groups
    The Usenet Improvement Project: http://improve-usenet.org
    Blinky: http://blinkynet.net
    Blinky the Shark, Feb 20, 2008
    #17
  18. Mike Barnard

    Mike Barnard Guest

    On Wed, 20 Feb 2008 14:45:46 -0800, Blinky the Shark
    <> wrote:

    >Beauregard T. Shagnasty wrote:
    >
    >> Els wrote:
    >>
    >>> Blinky the Shark wrote:
    >>>> Penguin Compressed? ;)
    >>>
    >>> <g>
    >>> No, that wasn't it.
    >>>
    >>>> Hey, they press ducks, don't they?
    >>>
    >>> No idea - who does, and are they live ducks or dead ones, and how do
    >>> they do it and why? :)

    >>
    >> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pressed_duck

    >
    >More detail, and images, here. It's quite a process:
    >
    >http://fxcuisine.com/default.asp?Display=13


    Hmm, just finished eating sticky toffee pudding and custard. Er, what
    IS that gurgling sou.....

    groan.
    Mike Barnard, Feb 20, 2008
    #18
  19. Mike Barnard

    Mike Barnard Guest

    On Wed, 20 Feb 2008 12:57:04 +0000, Mike Barnard
    <> wrote:

    >Hi.
    >
    >Yes, before you start saying this has been done to death, it has. But


    A big thanks to all who entered into this one. I'm experimenting with
    some of the most popularly named fonts from this thread, I'll see what
    tickles my fancy.

    Mike.
    Mike Barnard, Feb 20, 2008
    #19
  20. Mike Barnard

    Els Guest

    Blinky the Shark wrote:

    > Beauregard T. Shagnasty wrote:
    >
    >> Els wrote:
    >>
    >>> Blinky the Shark wrote:
    >>>> Penguin Compressed? ;)
    >>>
    >>> <g>
    >>> No, that wasn't it.
    >>>
    >>>> Hey, they press ducks, don't they?
    >>>
    >>> No idea - who does, and are they live ducks or dead ones, and how do
    >>> they do it and why? :)

    >>
    >> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pressed_duck

    >
    > More detail, and images, here. It's quite a process:
    >
    > http://fxcuisine.com/default.asp?Display=13


    To be honest, the description in wikipedia turns me off more than the
    images even. Apart from the strangling I suppose the duck doesn't
    suffer, but it still sounds like torturing an animal while eating
    it... And then "to extract duck blood and other juices" - what other
    juices? I can only think of foul tasting ones :\

    --
    Els http://locusmeus.com/
    Els, Feb 20, 2008
    #20
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