There has to be a better way to develop web applications.

Discussion in 'ASP .Net' started by Rob R. Ainscough, Jul 12, 2005.

  1. I realize I'm learning web development and there is a STEEP learning curve,
    but so far I've had to learn:

    HTML
    XML
    JavaScript
    ASP.NET using VB.NET
    ..NET Framework
    ADO.NET
    SSL
    FormAuthentication
    (and probably a few more things)

    Now call me crazy, but this hog pog of languages & technologies is
    ridiculous!! The simplest of tasks become major R&D efforts (setting the
    enable state of a control on another ASPX page in a frame for example). And
    XML, OMG that has got to be the most ineffecient way to write out data I've
    ever seen -- the overhead is staggering!! So far the research I've seen are
    "frames are evil" -- great so freakin' helpful. This is just crazy, if the
    development community has to continue on in this bizarre environment of
    languages and technology, then web application development is never going to
    mature and become cost effective for companies to exploit.

    This is NOT an efficient way to get work done -- just the cost to get
    developers up to speed on all the technology can doom a project from the
    start. The pipe dream of using ASP.NET with VB.NET and .NET framework ONLY
    for web development is just that -- a pipe dream, for only the simplest of
    applications could anyone get away with just those three technology/tools.

    I just don't understand -- terms such as portability get tossed around, but
    the bottom line is, if you elect to use .NET Framework and ASP.NET your
    bound to MS server OS. And, if this is all done in the name of
    "portability" (at the cost of performance) how often are you folks moving
    servers around and changing platforms?? If platforms are changing that
    frequently, that begs the question why?! It's like building something for
    5% that may need it while the majority don't -- so the majority have to take
    the penalty. There has got to be a better way?

    Rob.
    Rob R. Ainscough, Jul 12, 2005
    #1
    1. Advertising

  2. Rob R. Ainscough

    Sean M Guest

    "Rob R. Ainscough" <> wrote in message
    news:...
    [...snip...]

    TROLL POST ALERT!
    Sean M, Jul 12, 2005
    #2
    1. Advertising

  3. Trolls usually do one liners, kinda like what you just posted.

    So do you have an opinion or do you just like to call everyone a Troll? I
    think it is often called, I can't deal with this reality, so lets bring out
    the "Troll Defense". -- I think it goes something like this -- "The fabric
    of time is being questioned, therefore he must be a Troll"

    Your input has demonstrate your value.

    "Sean M" <> wrote in message
    news:...
    >
    > "Rob R. Ainscough" <> wrote in message
    > news:...
    > [...snip...]
    >
    > TROLL POST ALERT!
    >
    >
    Rob R. Ainscough, Jul 12, 2005
    #3
  4. Rob R. Ainscough

    Teemu Keiski Guest

    Hello,

    first of all. Using .NET and ASP.NET does not tie you to MS OS. There's also
    open-source implementation for non-MS OS's
    http://www.mono-project.com

    Otherwise it is somewhat true. The term jungle has increased a lot,
    however.NET is a effort to better as it ties APIs for these things together
    in the Framework. If you try to do the same with previous versions of MS
    technologies, you'd need to install tons of separate libraries such as
    MSXML, MDAC (though .NET requires certain version too but that usually
    exists with newer OS's).

    Your example of XML being overhead is also true,. However there are
    alternatives such as binary serialization, remoting etc etc. So iut's also
    case.specific, not just always generally a problem.

    It's a large topic to discuss but I understand the pain.

    --
    Teemu Keiski
    ASP.NET MVP, AspInsider
    Finland, EU
    http://blogs.aspadvice.com/joteke
    Teemu Keiski, Jul 12, 2005
    #4
  5. re:
    > if you elect to use .NET Framework and ASP.NET your bound to MS server OS.


    Rob, take a look at :

    http://www.dotnetpowered.com/languages.aspx
    for a list of the languages/OS's which you can use with .Net.

    You may have to reconsider your statement
    quoted above after you see that page.

    Sure, the learning curve is steep, but it's no more
    steep than any other web platform's learning curve.

    Progress demands fast change.

    Complaining about the pace of change won't get you anywhere,
    except to the place where archaic stuff is archived.

    In any case, what do you suggest as an alternative ?



    Juan T. Llibre
    ASP.NET MVP
    http://asp.net.do/foros/
    Foros de ASP.NET en Español
    Ven, y hablemos de ASP.NET...
    ======================

    "Rob R. Ainscough" <> wrote in message
    news:...
    >I realize I'm learning web development and there is a STEEP learning curve, but so far
    >I've had to learn:
    >
    > HTML
    > XML
    > JavaScript
    > ASP.NET using VB.NET
    > .NET Framework
    > ADO.NET
    > SSL
    > FormAuthentication
    > (and probably a few more things)
    >
    > Now call me crazy, but this hog pog of languages & technologies is ridiculous!! The
    > simplest of tasks become major R&D efforts (setting the enable state of a control on
    > another ASPX page in a frame for example). And XML, OMG that has got to be the most
    > ineffecient way to write out data I've ever seen -- the overhead is staggering!! So far
    > the research I've seen are "frames are evil" -- great so freakin' helpful. This is just
    > crazy, if the development community has to continue on in this bizarre environment of
    > languages and technology, then web application development is never going to mature and
    > become cost effective for companies to exploit.
    >
    > This is NOT an efficient way to get work done -- just the cost to get developers up to
    > speed on all the technology can doom a project from the start. The pipe dream of using
    > ASP.NET with VB.NET and .NET framework ONLY for web development is just that -- a pipe
    > dream, for only the simplest of applications could anyone get away with just those three
    > technology/tools.
    >
    > I just don't understand -- terms such as portability get tossed around, but the bottom
    > line is, if you elect to use .NET Framework and ASP.NET your bound to MS server OS.
    > And, if this is all done in the name of "portability" (at the cost of performance) how
    > often are you folks moving servers around and changing platforms?? If platforms are
    > changing that frequently, that begs the question why?! It's like building something for
    > 5% that may need it while the majority don't -- so the majority have to take the
    > penalty. There has got to be a better way?
    >
    > Rob.
    >
    >
    Juan T. Llibre, Jul 12, 2005
    #5
  6. Rob R. Ainscough

    Mark Rae Guest

    "Rob R. Ainscough" <> wrote in message
    news:...

    > There has got to be a better way?


    So why don't you develop it, smart-arse, instead of whinging because you're
    having to do some learning...?

    No-one's forcing you to use .NET.

    No-one's forcing you to write a single line of code.

    No-one's forcing you even to own a PC.
    Mark Rae, Jul 12, 2005
    #6
  7. Yes, I do actually like Serialization and use it more often.

    I didn't realize it was available for non-MS. Does the non-MS
    implementation ofer identical feature sets and is it stable? I haven't seen
    any hosting services that offer it or support it so I'd imagine it would be
    a manage in-house situation?

    I think the dev tools are a LONG way off from any real sense of
    "unification" -- VS 2005 doesn't appear to be much different, basically
    fixes and extends on things that should have been part of VS 2003.

    I'm sure it is a little better than it was with just ASP, but we're going on
    5 years now and it feels like the dev tools just aren't progressing at a
    pace they should be to keep up with demand. RAD is what it is about and it
    really doesn't feel any fast today than it did 5 years ago.

    Rob.

    "Teemu Keiski" <> wrote in message
    news:...
    > Hello,
    >
    > first of all. Using .NET and ASP.NET does not tie you to MS OS. There's
    > also open-source implementation for non-MS OS's
    > http://www.mono-project.com
    >
    > Otherwise it is somewhat true. The term jungle has increased a lot,
    > however.NET is a effort to better as it ties APIs for these things
    > together in the Framework. If you try to do the same with previous
    > versions of MS technologies, you'd need to install tons of separate
    > libraries such as MSXML, MDAC (though .NET requires certain version too
    > but that usually exists with newer OS's).
    >
    > Your example of XML being overhead is also true,. However there are
    > alternatives such as binary serialization, remoting etc etc. So iut's also
    > case.specific, not just always generally a problem.
    >
    > It's a large topic to discuss but I understand the pain.
    >
    > --
    > Teemu Keiski
    > ASP.NET MVP, AspInsider
    > Finland, EU
    > http://blogs.aspadvice.com/joteke
    >
    >
    Rob R. Ainscough, Jul 12, 2005
    #7
  8. Juan,

    That is good, but think about what your just pointed out. 97% of the listed
    languages are used by <2% of the dev community -- flexible yes, but
    important to RAD (rapid application development), no.

    I have no problem with "Change", I do have a problem of change for the sake
    of change OR change to benefit the few but penalizes the majority. I do
    find it funny you point out a list of supported languages, some VERY archaic
    that can now be used with .NET. Your sending a confusing message.

    I don't care that I would need to learn A new language (as in one), but it
    does me NO good to learned several new languages all of which are simply
    different syntaxs (or exist to bridge the gap) that are ultimately used to
    turn concepts into reality. All languages ultimately do the same thing and
    people argue for days that language X is better than language Y, but the
    reality is most good developers just want the best tool available that is
    easiest to translate spec into code into reality -- as a developer, I don't
    mind learning a new language, just make sure that is it -- businesses can't
    afford to keep sending developers off to learn the lastest fad language
    which will go out of "favor" in a few years for the next "fad" language.
    Sure it maybe a money making scheme for Microsoft, but it doesn't do the
    business world any good. I mean, I see resumes all the time with a list of
    90 languages long and someone is "proud" of that fact -- think about it, it
    is really a pretty sad state of affairs.

    Rob.

    "Juan T. Llibre" <> wrote in message
    news:...
    > re:
    >> if you elect to use .NET Framework and ASP.NET your bound to MS server
    >> OS.

    >
    > Rob, take a look at :
    >
    > http://www.dotnetpowered.com/languages.aspx
    > for a list of the languages/OS's which you can use with .Net.
    >
    > You may have to reconsider your statement
    > quoted above after you see that page.
    >
    > Sure, the learning curve is steep, but it's no more
    > steep than any other web platform's learning curve.
    >
    > Progress demands fast change.
    >
    > Complaining about the pace of change won't get you anywhere,
    > except to the place where archaic stuff is archived.
    >
    > In any case, what do you suggest as an alternative ?
    >
    >
    >
    > Juan T. Llibre
    > ASP.NET MVP
    > http://asp.net.do/foros/
    > Foros de ASP.NET en Español
    > Ven, y hablemos de ASP.NET...
    > ======================
    >
    > "Rob R. Ainscough" <> wrote in message
    > news:...
    >>I realize I'm learning web development and there is a STEEP learning
    >>curve, but so far I've had to learn:
    >>
    >> HTML
    >> XML
    >> JavaScript
    >> ASP.NET using VB.NET
    >> .NET Framework
    >> ADO.NET
    >> SSL
    >> FormAuthentication
    >> (and probably a few more things)
    >>
    >> Now call me crazy, but this hog pog of languages & technologies is
    >> ridiculous!! The simplest of tasks become major R&D efforts (setting the
    >> enable state of a control on another ASPX page in a frame for example).
    >> And XML, OMG that has got to be the most ineffecient way to write out
    >> data I've ever seen -- the overhead is staggering!! So far the research
    >> I've seen are "frames are evil" -- great so freakin' helpful. This is
    >> just crazy, if the development community has to continue on in this
    >> bizarre environment of languages and technology, then web application
    >> development is never going to mature and become cost effective for
    >> companies to exploit.
    >>
    >> This is NOT an efficient way to get work done -- just the cost to get
    >> developers up to speed on all the technology can doom a project from the
    >> start. The pipe dream of using ASP.NET with VB.NET and .NET framework
    >> ONLY for web development is just that -- a pipe dream, for only the
    >> simplest of applications could anyone get away with just those three
    >> technology/tools.
    >>
    >> I just don't understand -- terms such as portability get tossed around,
    >> but the bottom line is, if you elect to use .NET Framework and ASP.NET
    >> your bound to MS server OS. And, if this is all done in the name of
    >> "portability" (at the cost of performance) how often are you folks moving
    >> servers around and changing platforms?? If platforms are changing that
    >> frequently, that begs the question why?! It's like building something
    >> for 5% that may need it while the majority don't -- so the majority have
    >> to take the penalty. There has got to be a better way?
    >>
    >> Rob.
    >>
    >>

    >
    >
    Rob R. Ainscough, Jul 12, 2005
    #8
  9. Your objections are acknowledged.

    What do you suggest as an alternate platform ?



    Juan T. Llibre
    ASP.NET MVP
    http://asp.net.do/foros/
    Foros de ASP.NET en Español
    Ven, y hablemos de ASP.NET...
    ======================

    "Rob R. Ainscough" <> wrote in message
    news:O%...
    > Juan,
    >
    > That is good, but think about what your just pointed out. 97% of the listed languages
    > are used by <2% of the dev community -- flexible yes, but important to RAD (rapid
    > application development), no.
    >
    > I have no problem with "Change", I do have a problem of change for the sake of change OR
    > change to benefit the few but penalizes the majority. I do find it funny you point out
    > a list of supported languages, some VERY archaic that can now be used with .NET. Your
    > sending a confusing message.
    >
    > I don't care that I would need to learn A new language (as in one), but it does me NO
    > good to learned several new languages all of which are simply different syntaxs (or
    > exist to bridge the gap) that are ultimately used to turn concepts into reality. All
    > languages ultimately do the same thing and people argue for days that language X is
    > better than language Y, but the reality is most good developers just want the best tool
    > available that is easiest to translate spec into code into reality -- as a developer, I
    > don't mind learning a new language, just make sure that is it -- businesses can't afford
    > to keep sending developers off to learn the lastest fad language which will go out of
    > "favor" in a few years for the next "fad" language. Sure it maybe a money making scheme
    > for Microsoft, but it doesn't do the business world any good. I mean, I see resumes all
    > the time with a list of 90 languages long and someone is "proud" of that fact -- think
    > about it, it is really a pretty sad state of affairs.
    >
    > Rob.
    >
    > "Juan T. Llibre" <> wrote in message
    > news:...
    >> re:
    >>> if you elect to use .NET Framework and ASP.NET your bound to MS server OS.

    >>
    >> Rob, take a look at :
    >>
    >> http://www.dotnetpowered.com/languages.aspx
    >> for a list of the languages/OS's which you can use with .Net.
    >>
    >> You may have to reconsider your statement
    >> quoted above after you see that page.
    >>
    >> Sure, the learning curve is steep, but it's no more
    >> steep than any other web platform's learning curve.
    >>
    >> Progress demands fast change.
    >>
    >> Complaining about the pace of change won't get you anywhere,
    >> except to the place where archaic stuff is archived.
    >>
    >> In any case, what do you suggest as an alternative ?
    >>
    >>
    >>
    >> Juan T. Llibre
    >> ASP.NET MVP
    >> http://asp.net.do/foros/
    >> Foros de ASP.NET en Español
    >> Ven, y hablemos de ASP.NET...
    >> ======================
    >>
    >> "Rob R. Ainscough" <> wrote in message
    >> news:...
    >>>I realize I'm learning web development and there is a STEEP learning curve, but so far
    >>>I've had to learn:
    >>>
    >>> HTML
    >>> XML
    >>> JavaScript
    >>> ASP.NET using VB.NET
    >>> .NET Framework
    >>> ADO.NET
    >>> SSL
    >>> FormAuthentication
    >>> (and probably a few more things)
    >>>
    >>> Now call me crazy, but this hog pog of languages & technologies is ridiculous!! The
    >>> simplest of tasks become major R&D efforts (setting the enable state of a control on
    >>> another ASPX page in a frame for example). And XML, OMG that has got to be the most
    >>> ineffecient way to write out data I've ever seen -- the overhead is staggering!! So
    >>> far the research I've seen are "frames are evil" -- great so freakin' helpful. This
    >>> is just crazy, if the development community has to continue on in this bizarre
    >>> environment of languages and technology, then web application development is never
    >>> going to mature and become cost effective for companies to exploit.
    >>>
    >>> This is NOT an efficient way to get work done -- just the cost to get developers up to
    >>> speed on all the technology can doom a project from the start. The pipe dream of
    >>> using ASP.NET with VB.NET and .NET framework ONLY for web development is just that --
    >>> a pipe dream, for only the simplest of applications could anyone get away with just
    >>> those three technology/tools.
    >>>
    >>> I just don't understand -- terms such as portability get tossed around, but the bottom
    >>> line is, if you elect to use .NET Framework and ASP.NET your bound to MS server OS.
    >>> And, if this is all done in the name of "portability" (at the cost of performance) how
    >>> often are you folks moving servers around and changing platforms?? If platforms are
    >>> changing that frequently, that begs the question why?! It's like building something
    >>> for 5% that may need it while the majority don't -- so the majority have to take the
    >>> penalty. There has got to be a better way?
    >>>
    >>> Rob.
    >>>
    >>>

    >>
    >>

    >
    >
    Juan T. Llibre, Jul 12, 2005
    #9
  10. Mark,

    Because, learning the language of the day to accomplish the same tasks over
    and over is NOT efficient -- that's why. Like I said, listing 90 languages
    on my resume is more of an embarrassment than an accomplishment. The
    concepts don't change, only the syntax and all the restrictions and
    limitations that go with it.

    MS have the resources, not I -- and we should be there by now -- but as it
    stands today, we're a good 5-10 years away.

    No one is forcing you to post a response -- so what is your point?? So what
    is your point? Don't complain, don't make waves, just accept it -- is that
    how you think -- be a sheep, baaa baaa baaa

    Rob.

    "Mark Rae" <> wrote in message
    news:...
    > "Rob R. Ainscough" <> wrote in message
    > news:...
    >
    >> There has got to be a better way?

    >
    > So why don't you develop it, smart-arse, instead of whinging because
    > you're having to do some learning...?
    >
    > No-one's forcing you to use .NET.
    >
    > No-one's forcing you to write a single line of code.
    >
    > No-one's forcing you even to own a PC.
    >
    Rob R. Ainscough, Jul 12, 2005
    #10
  11. No more alternatives -- just get MS to freakin' pick one and stay with it --
    stop re-inventing the wheel every 5 years that does more or less the same
    thing. Evolve the tool, stop dumping it and starting from scratch again --
    the only message I see there is that MS got lost and their "code re-use"
    went out the door -- which isn't exactly a great selling point for their
    lastest and great new tools.

    But I am waiting for the hard back version of "How Microsoft got lost" --
    version 3.1 due out this holiday season ;)

    Rob.

    "Juan T. Llibre" <> wrote in message
    news:...
    > Your objections are acknowledged.
    >
    > What do you suggest as an alternate platform ?
    >
    >
    >
    > Juan T. Llibre
    > ASP.NET MVP
    > http://asp.net.do/foros/
    > Foros de ASP.NET en Español
    > Ven, y hablemos de ASP.NET...
    > ======================
    >
    > "Rob R. Ainscough" <> wrote in message
    > news:O%...
    >> Juan,
    >>
    >> That is good, but think about what your just pointed out. 97% of the
    >> listed languages are used by <2% of the dev community -- flexible yes,
    >> but important to RAD (rapid application development), no.
    >>
    >> I have no problem with "Change", I do have a problem of change for the
    >> sake of change OR change to benefit the few but penalizes the majority.
    >> I do find it funny you point out a list of supported languages, some VERY
    >> archaic that can now be used with .NET. Your sending a confusing
    >> message.
    >>
    >> I don't care that I would need to learn A new language (as in one), but
    >> it does me NO good to learned several new languages all of which are
    >> simply different syntaxs (or exist to bridge the gap) that are ultimately
    >> used to turn concepts into reality. All languages ultimately do the same
    >> thing and people argue for days that language X is better than language
    >> Y, but the reality is most good developers just want the best tool
    >> available that is easiest to translate spec into code into reality -- as
    >> a developer, I don't mind learning a new language, just make sure that is
    >> it -- businesses can't afford to keep sending developers off to learn the
    >> lastest fad language which will go out of "favor" in a few years for the
    >> next "fad" language. Sure it maybe a money making scheme for Microsoft,
    >> but it doesn't do the business world any good. I mean, I see resumes all
    >> the time with a list of 90 languages long and someone is "proud" of that
    >> fact -- think about it, it is really a pretty sad state of affairs.
    >>
    >> Rob.
    >>
    >> "Juan T. Llibre" <> wrote in message
    >> news:...
    >>> re:
    >>>> if you elect to use .NET Framework and ASP.NET your bound to MS server
    >>>> OS.
    >>>
    >>> Rob, take a look at :
    >>>
    >>> http://www.dotnetpowered.com/languages.aspx
    >>> for a list of the languages/OS's which you can use with .Net.
    >>>
    >>> You may have to reconsider your statement
    >>> quoted above after you see that page.
    >>>
    >>> Sure, the learning curve is steep, but it's no more
    >>> steep than any other web platform's learning curve.
    >>>
    >>> Progress demands fast change.
    >>>
    >>> Complaining about the pace of change won't get you anywhere,
    >>> except to the place where archaic stuff is archived.
    >>>
    >>> In any case, what do you suggest as an alternative ?
    >>>
    >>>
    >>>
    >>> Juan T. Llibre
    >>> ASP.NET MVP
    >>> http://asp.net.do/foros/
    >>> Foros de ASP.NET en Español
    >>> Ven, y hablemos de ASP.NET...
    >>> ======================
    >>>
    >>> "Rob R. Ainscough" <> wrote in message
    >>> news:...
    >>>>I realize I'm learning web development and there is a STEEP learning
    >>>>curve, but so far I've had to learn:
    >>>>
    >>>> HTML
    >>>> XML
    >>>> JavaScript
    >>>> ASP.NET using VB.NET
    >>>> .NET Framework
    >>>> ADO.NET
    >>>> SSL
    >>>> FormAuthentication
    >>>> (and probably a few more things)
    >>>>
    >>>> Now call me crazy, but this hog pog of languages & technologies is
    >>>> ridiculous!! The simplest of tasks become major R&D efforts (setting
    >>>> the enable state of a control on another ASPX page in a frame for
    >>>> example). And XML, OMG that has got to be the most ineffecient way to
    >>>> write out data I've ever seen -- the overhead is staggering!! So far
    >>>> the research I've seen are "frames are evil" -- great so freakin'
    >>>> helpful. This is just crazy, if the development community has to
    >>>> continue on in this bizarre environment of languages and technology,
    >>>> then web application development is never going to mature and become
    >>>> cost effective for companies to exploit.
    >>>>
    >>>> This is NOT an efficient way to get work done -- just the cost to get
    >>>> developers up to speed on all the technology can doom a project from
    >>>> the start. The pipe dream of using ASP.NET with VB.NET and .NET
    >>>> framework ONLY for web development is just that -- a pipe dream, for
    >>>> only the simplest of applications could anyone get away with just those
    >>>> three technology/tools.
    >>>>
    >>>> I just don't understand -- terms such as portability get tossed around,
    >>>> but the bottom line is, if you elect to use .NET Framework and ASP.NET
    >>>> your bound to MS server OS. And, if this is all done in the name of
    >>>> "portability" (at the cost of performance) how often are you folks
    >>>> moving servers around and changing platforms?? If platforms are
    >>>> changing that frequently, that begs the question why?! It's like
    >>>> building something for 5% that may need it while the majority don't --
    >>>> so the majority have to take the penalty. There has got to be a better
    >>>> way?
    >>>>
    >>>> Rob.
    >>>>
    >>>>
    >>>
    >>>

    >>
    >>

    >
    >
    Rob R. Ainscough, Jul 12, 2005
    #11
  12. re:
    > listing 90 languages on my resume


    I see you're against choice.

    Do you understand the difference between
    *choice* of languages and learning all of them ?

    re:
    > MS have the resources, not I -- and we should be there by now


    OK, if not MS, then who ? Who is doing a better job than MS ?
    Who is "there by now" ?



    Juan T. Llibre
    ASP.NET MVP
    http://asp.net.do/foros/
    Foros de ASP.NET en Español
    Ven, y hablemos de ASP.NET...
    ======================

    "Rob R. Ainscough" <> wrote in message
    news:...
    > Mark,
    >
    > Because, learning the language of the day to accomplish the same tasks over and over is
    > NOT efficient -- that's why. Like I said, listing 90 languages on my resume is more of
    > an embarrassment than an accomplishment. The concepts don't change, only the syntax and
    > all the restrictions and limitations that go with it.
    >
    > MS have the resources, not I -- and we should be there by now -- but as it stands today,
    > we're a good 5-10 years away.
    >
    > No one is forcing you to post a response -- so what is your point?? So what is your
    > point? Don't complain, don't make waves, just accept it -- is that how you think -- be
    > a sheep, baaa baaa baaa
    >
    > Rob.


    > "Mark Rae" <> wrote in message
    > news:...
    >> "Rob R. Ainscough" <> wrote in message
    >> news:...
    >>
    >>> There has got to be a better way?

    >>
    >> So why don't you develop it, smart-arse, instead of whinging because you're having to
    >> do some learning...?
    >>
    >> No-one's forcing you to use .NET.
    >>
    >> No-one's forcing you to write a single line of code.
    >>
    >> No-one's forcing you even to own a PC.
    Juan T. Llibre, Jul 12, 2005
    #12
  13. You managed to evade the question very well.

    The question is :
    > What do you suggest as an alternate platform ?


    Or, are you only focused on bitching about MS ?

    What/who is doing the job better than MS's platform is doing ?

    Is that too difficult a question ?

    Or, do you aim to be recognized as the troll you were accused of being ?

    Please answer.



    Juan T. Llibre
    ASP.NET MVP
    http://asp.net.do/foros/
    Foros de ASP.NET en Español
    Ven, y hablemos de ASP.NET...
    ======================

    "Rob R. Ainscough" <> wrote in message
    news:...
    > No more alternatives -- just get MS to freakin' pick one and stay with it -- stop
    > re-inventing the wheel every 5 years that does more or less the same thing. Evolve the
    > tool, stop dumping it and starting from scratch again -- the only message I see there
    > is that MS got lost and their "code re-use" went out the door -- which isn't exactly a
    > great selling point for their lastest and great new tools.
    >
    > But I am waiting for the hard back version of "How Microsoft got lost" -- version 3.1
    > due out this holiday season ;)
    >
    > Rob.
    >
    > "Juan T. Llibre" <> wrote in message
    > news:...
    >> Your objections are acknowledged.
    >>
    >> What do you suggest as an alternate platform ?
    >>
    >>
    >>
    >> Juan T. Llibre
    >> ASP.NET MVP
    >> http://asp.net.do/foros/
    >> Foros de ASP.NET en Español
    >> Ven, y hablemos de ASP.NET...
    >> ======================
    >>
    >> "Rob R. Ainscough" <> wrote in message
    >> news:O%...
    >>> Juan,
    >>>
    >>> That is good, but think about what your just pointed out. 97% of the listed languages
    >>> are used by <2% of the dev community -- flexible yes, but important to RAD (rapid
    >>> application development), no.
    >>>
    >>> I have no problem with "Change", I do have a problem of change for the sake of change
    >>> OR change to benefit the few but penalizes the majority. I do find it funny you point
    >>> out a list of supported languages, some VERY archaic that can now be used with .NET.
    >>> Your sending a confusing message.
    >>>
    >>> I don't care that I would need to learn A new language (as in one), but it does me NO
    >>> good to learned several new languages all of which are simply different syntaxs (or
    >>> exist to bridge the gap) that are ultimately used to turn concepts into reality. All
    >>> languages ultimately do the same thing and people argue for days that language X is
    >>> better than language Y, but the reality is most good developers just want the best
    >>> tool available that is easiest to translate spec into code into reality -- as a
    >>> developer, I don't mind learning a new language, just make sure that is it --
    >>> businesses can't afford to keep sending developers off to learn the lastest fad
    >>> language which will go out of "favor" in a few years for the next "fad" language. Sure
    >>> it maybe a money making scheme for Microsoft, but it doesn't do the business world any
    >>> good. I mean, I see resumes all the time with a list of 90 languages long and someone
    >>> is "proud" of that fact -- think about it, it is really a pretty sad state of affairs.
    >>>
    >>> Rob.
    >>>
    >>> "Juan T. Llibre" <> wrote in message
    >>> news:...
    >>>> re:
    >>>>> if you elect to use .NET Framework and ASP.NET your bound to MS server OS.
    >>>>
    >>>> Rob, take a look at :
    >>>>
    >>>> http://www.dotnetpowered.com/languages.aspx
    >>>> for a list of the languages/OS's which you can use with .Net.
    >>>>
    >>>> You may have to reconsider your statement
    >>>> quoted above after you see that page.
    >>>>
    >>>> Sure, the learning curve is steep, but it's no more
    >>>> steep than any other web platform's learning curve.
    >>>>
    >>>> Progress demands fast change.
    >>>>
    >>>> Complaining about the pace of change won't get you anywhere,
    >>>> except to the place where archaic stuff is archived.
    >>>>
    >>>> In any case, what do you suggest as an alternative ?
    >>>>
    >>>>
    >>>>
    >>>> Juan T. Llibre
    >>>> ASP.NET MVP
    >>>> http://asp.net.do/foros/
    >>>> Foros de ASP.NET en Español
    >>>> Ven, y hablemos de ASP.NET...
    >>>> ======================
    >>>>
    >>>> "Rob R. Ainscough" <> wrote in message
    >>>> news:...
    >>>>>I realize I'm learning web development and there is a STEEP learning curve, but so
    >>>>>far I've had to learn:
    >>>>>
    >>>>> HTML
    >>>>> XML
    >>>>> JavaScript
    >>>>> ASP.NET using VB.NET
    >>>>> .NET Framework
    >>>>> ADO.NET
    >>>>> SSL
    >>>>> FormAuthentication
    >>>>> (and probably a few more things)
    >>>>>
    >>>>> Now call me crazy, but this hog pog of languages & technologies is ridiculous!! The
    >>>>> simplest of tasks become major R&D efforts (setting the enable state of a control on
    >>>>> another ASPX page in a frame for example). And XML, OMG that has got to be the most
    >>>>> ineffecient way to write out data I've ever seen -- the overhead is staggering!! So
    >>>>> far the research I've seen are "frames are evil" -- great so freakin' helpful. This
    >>>>> is just crazy, if the development community has to continue on in this bizarre
    >>>>> environment of languages and technology, then web application development is never
    >>>>> going to mature and become cost effective for companies to exploit.
    >>>>>
    >>>>> This is NOT an efficient way to get work done -- just the cost to get developers up
    >>>>> to speed on all the technology can doom a project from the start. The pipe dream of
    >>>>> using ASP.NET with VB.NET and .NET framework ONLY for web development is just
    >>>>> that -- a pipe dream, for only the simplest of applications could anyone get away
    >>>>> with just those three technology/tools.
    >>>>>
    >>>>> I just don't understand -- terms such as portability get tossed around, but the
    >>>>> bottom line is, if you elect to use .NET Framework and ASP.NET your bound to MS
    >>>>> server OS. And, if this is all done in the name of "portability" (at the cost of
    >>>>> performance) how often are you folks moving servers around and changing platforms??
    >>>>> If platforms are changing that frequently, that begs the question why?! It's like
    >>>>> building something for 5% that may need it while the majority don't -- so the
    >>>>> majority have to take the penalty. There has got to be a better way?
    >>>>>
    >>>>> Rob.
    >>>>>
    >>>>>
    >>>>
    >>>>
    >>>
    >>>

    >>
    >>

    >
    >
    Juan T. Llibre, Jul 12, 2005
    #13
  14. Why are you intent on comparisons? I'm not, so why are you? Who does it
    better, I don't know, don't care -- I just want the insanity of language of
    the day to be over so we can concentrate on design and produce results and
    less of "oh yeah, can't do that with ASP.NET so ya have to do some
    JavaScript and do a little HTML setup work and...".

    So I take it you agree with the obvious problem in efficiency? yes or no?

    Against choice? You on planet earth -- this ain't the business of pic your
    favorite iPod color -- stay within context.

    You sound like a Microsoft troll -- get over your loyality already.

    "Juan T. Llibre" <> wrote in message
    news:...
    > re:
    >> listing 90 languages on my resume

    >
    > I see you're against choice.
    >
    > Do you understand the difference between
    > *choice* of languages and learning all of them ?
    >
    > re:
    >> MS have the resources, not I -- and we should be there by now

    >
    > OK, if not MS, then who ? Who is doing a better job than MS ?
    > Who is "there by now" ?
    >
    >
    >
    > Juan T. Llibre
    > ASP.NET MVP
    > http://asp.net.do/foros/
    > Foros de ASP.NET en Español
    > Ven, y hablemos de ASP.NET...
    > ======================
    >
    > "Rob R. Ainscough" <> wrote in message
    > news:...
    >> Mark,
    >>
    >> Because, learning the language of the day to accomplish the same tasks
    >> over and over is NOT efficient -- that's why. Like I said, listing 90
    >> languages on my resume is more of an embarrassment than an
    >> accomplishment. The concepts don't change, only the syntax and all the
    >> restrictions and limitations that go with it.
    >>
    >> MS have the resources, not I -- and we should be there by now -- but as
    >> it stands today, we're a good 5-10 years away.
    >>
    >> No one is forcing you to post a response -- so what is your point?? So
    >> what is your point? Don't complain, don't make waves, just accept it --
    >> is that how you think -- be a sheep, baaa baaa baaa
    >>
    >> Rob.

    >
    >> "Mark Rae" <> wrote in message
    >> news:...
    >>> "Rob R. Ainscough" <> wrote in message
    >>> news:...
    >>>
    >>>> There has got to be a better way?
    >>>
    >>> So why don't you develop it, smart-arse, instead of whinging because
    >>> you're having to do some learning...?
    >>>
    >>> No-one's forcing you to use .NET.
    >>>
    >>> No-one's forcing you to write a single line of code.
    >>>
    >>> No-one's forcing you even to own a PC.

    >
    >
    Rob R. Ainscough, Jul 13, 2005
    #14
  15. re:
    >I don't know, don't care


    Yup, that sums up your stance.

    You are confirming that you'd rather complain,
    than work towards getting a better product.

    Do you have *anything* positive to offer ?
    Like, maybe, a suggestion or two ?

    Or, as is apparent, do you prefer to bitch
    without offering any suggestions for improvement ?

    You don't offer any alternatives,
    and you don't offer any suggestions for improvement.

    You just bitch. That doesn't get us anywhere.



    Juan T. Llibre
    ASP.NET MVP
    http://asp.net.do/foros/
    Foros de ASP.NET en Español
    Ven, y hablemos de ASP.NET...
    ======================

    "Rob R. Ainscough" <> wrote in message
    news:%...
    > Why are you intent on comparisons? I'm not, so why are you? Who does it better, I
    > don't know, don't care -- I just want the insanity of language of the day to be over so
    > we can concentrate on design and produce results and less of "oh yeah, can't do that
    > with ASP.NET so ya have to do some JavaScript and do a little HTML setup work and...".
    >
    > So I take it you agree with the obvious problem in efficiency? yes or no?
    >
    > Against choice? You on planet earth -- this ain't the business of pic your favorite
    > iPod color -- stay within context.
    >
    > You sound like a Microsoft troll -- get over your loyality already.


    > "Juan T. Llibre" <> wrote in message
    > news:...
    >> re:
    >>> listing 90 languages on my resume

    >>
    >> I see you're against choice.
    >>
    >> Do you understand the difference between
    >> *choice* of languages and learning all of them ?
    >>
    >> re:
    >>> MS have the resources, not I -- and we should be there by now

    >>
    >> OK, if not MS, then who ? Who is doing a better job than MS ?
    >> Who is "there by now" ?
    >>
    >>
    >>
    >> Juan T. Llibre
    >> ASP.NET MVP
    >> http://asp.net.do/foros/
    >> Foros de ASP.NET en Español
    >> Ven, y hablemos de ASP.NET...
    >> ======================
    >>
    >> "Rob R. Ainscough" <> wrote in message
    >> news:...
    >>> Mark,
    >>>
    >>> Because, learning the language of the day to accomplish the same tasks over and over
    >>> is NOT efficient -- that's why. Like I said, listing 90 languages on my resume is
    >>> more of an embarrassment than an accomplishment. The concepts don't change, only the
    >>> syntax and all the restrictions and limitations that go with it.
    >>>
    >>> MS have the resources, not I -- and we should be there by now -- but as it stands
    >>> today, we're a good 5-10 years away.
    >>>
    >>> No one is forcing you to post a response -- so what is your point?? So what is your
    >>> point? Don't complain, don't make waves, just accept it -- is that how you think --
    >>> be a sheep, baaa baaa baaa
    >>>
    >>> Rob.

    >>
    >>> "Mark Rae" <> wrote in message
    >>> news:...
    >>>> "Rob R. Ainscough" <> wrote in message
    >>>> news:...
    >>>>
    >>>>> There has got to be a better way?
    >>>>
    >>>> So why don't you develop it, smart-arse, instead of whinging because you're having to
    >>>> do some learning...?
    >>>>
    >>>> No-one's forcing you to use .NET.
    >>>>
    >>>> No-one's forcing you to write a single line of code.
    >>>>
    >>>> No-one's forcing you even to own a PC.

    >>
    >>

    >
    >
    Juan T. Llibre, Jul 13, 2005
    #15
  16. If you understood what I was saying, you'd realize it is not a bitch
    session.

    Yes, do away with HTML, XHTML, JavaScript, CSS and make it --

    CLD - Common Language Development, CLF - Common Language Framework

    If a huge base of HTML, XHTML, JavaScript, CSS code needs to be ported,
    build a very good migration tool that will generate CLD (and do it right).

    Make CLD syntatically easy to follow/read and provide an rich intelligent
    IDE environment that has markers that work beyond a single module, provide
    more sophisticated lookup linking, improve help link system and provide MUCH
    more real world code samples in the help system. Provide managed and
    unmanaged connection options, provide a real debugger (similar in power to
    VB6 debugger). Just make life easier for the developer so we can get more
    done, higher quality, and in less time.

    That would be a start -- something .NET should have been but failed. And
    don't start on "cross-platform" -- make that come later as "needed" (if
    needed at all)? I mean that is the way it stands right now, you don't see
    many folks doing ASP.NET with .NET Framework development on Unix servers.
    This is not a debate about which is better, it is a reality of the
    situation. Don't build an enormous amount of cross-platform
    compatibility/flexibilty that is going to be used by <2% of dev community.

    Rob.

    Rob.


    "Juan T. Llibre" <> wrote in message
    news:...
    > re:
    >>I don't know, don't care

    >
    > Yup, that sums up your stance.
    >
    > You are confirming that you'd rather complain,
    > than work towards getting a better product.
    >
    > Do you have *anything* positive to offer ?
    > Like, maybe, a suggestion or two ?
    >
    > Or, as is apparent, do you prefer to bitch
    > without offering any suggestions for improvement ?
    >
    > You don't offer any alternatives,
    > and you don't offer any suggestions for improvement.
    >
    > You just bitch. That doesn't get us anywhere.
    >
    >
    >
    > Juan T. Llibre
    > ASP.NET MVP
    > http://asp.net.do/foros/
    > Foros de ASP.NET en Español
    > Ven, y hablemos de ASP.NET...
    > ======================
    >
    > "Rob R. Ainscough" <> wrote in message
    > news:%...
    >> Why are you intent on comparisons? I'm not, so why are you? Who does it
    >> better, I don't know, don't care -- I just want the insanity of language
    >> of the day to be over so we can concentrate on design and produce results
    >> and less of "oh yeah, can't do that with ASP.NET so ya have to do some
    >> JavaScript and do a little HTML setup work and...".
    >>
    >> So I take it you agree with the obvious problem in efficiency? yes or
    >> no?
    >>
    >> Against choice? You on planet earth -- this ain't the business of pic
    >> your favorite iPod color -- stay within context.
    >>
    >> You sound like a Microsoft troll -- get over your loyality already.

    >
    >> "Juan T. Llibre" <> wrote in message
    >> news:...
    >>> re:
    >>>> listing 90 languages on my resume
    >>>
    >>> I see you're against choice.
    >>>
    >>> Do you understand the difference between
    >>> *choice* of languages and learning all of them ?
    >>>
    >>> re:
    >>>> MS have the resources, not I -- and we should be there by now
    >>>
    >>> OK, if not MS, then who ? Who is doing a better job than MS ?
    >>> Who is "there by now" ?
    >>>
    >>>
    >>>
    >>> Juan T. Llibre
    >>> ASP.NET MVP
    >>> http://asp.net.do/foros/
    >>> Foros de ASP.NET en Español
    >>> Ven, y hablemos de ASP.NET...
    >>> ======================
    >>>
    >>> "Rob R. Ainscough" <> wrote in message
    >>> news:...
    >>>> Mark,
    >>>>
    >>>> Because, learning the language of the day to accomplish the same tasks
    >>>> over and over is NOT efficient -- that's why. Like I said, listing 90
    >>>> languages on my resume is more of an embarrassment than an
    >>>> accomplishment. The concepts don't change, only the syntax and all the
    >>>> restrictions and limitations that go with it.
    >>>>
    >>>> MS have the resources, not I -- and we should be there by now -- but as
    >>>> it stands today, we're a good 5-10 years away.
    >>>>
    >>>> No one is forcing you to post a response -- so what is your point?? So
    >>>> what is your point? Don't complain, don't make waves, just accept
    >>>> it -- is that how you think -- be a sheep, baaa baaa baaa
    >>>>
    >>>> Rob.
    >>>
    >>>> "Mark Rae" <> wrote in message
    >>>> news:...
    >>>>> "Rob R. Ainscough" <> wrote in message
    >>>>> news:...
    >>>>>
    >>>>>> There has got to be a better way?
    >>>>>
    >>>>> So why don't you develop it, smart-arse, instead of whinging because
    >>>>> you're having to do some learning...?
    >>>>>
    >>>>> No-one's forcing you to use .NET.
    >>>>>
    >>>>> No-one's forcing you to write a single line of code.
    >>>>>
    >>>>> No-one's forcing you even to own a PC.
    >>>
    >>>

    >>
    >>

    >
    >
    Rob R. Ainscough, Jul 13, 2005
    #16
  17. Rob R. Ainscough

    Mark Rae Guest

    "Rob R. Ainscough" <> wrote in message
    news:...

    > Because, learning the language of the day to accomplish the same tasks
    > over and over is NOT efficient -- that's why. Like I said, listing 90
    > languages on my resume is more of an embarrassment than an accomplishment.
    > The concepts don't change, only the syntax and all the restrictions and
    > limitations that go with it.


    Well, then, cast your mind back to the language in which you wrote your
    first ever line of code, and stick with that...
    Mark Rae, Jul 13, 2005
    #17
  18. > Yes, do away with HTML, XHTML, JavaScript, CSS and make it --
    >
    > CLD - Common Language Development, CLF - Common Language Framework


    Dude!

    ....

    Dude!!

    I hate to tell you this, but Microsoft didn't create the Internet (as we all
    know, Al Gore did). Neither did Microsoft create HTML, XHTML, JavaScript,
    CSS, HTTP, or any of that stuff that makes web pages what they are.

    What Microsoft created was ASP.Net, which is a SERVER-SIDE technology for
    working with all that stuff that Microsoft did NOT create.

    Microsoft is not the God of the Intenet. If they were, I'm sure it would
    have ended up much simpler to work with than it is. They are simply dealing
    with it. I would suggest you do the same.

    --
    HTH,

    Kevin Spencer
    Microsoft MVP
    ..Net Developer
    The sun never sets on
    the Kingdom of Heaven

    "Rob R. Ainscough" <> wrote in message
    news:...
    > If you understood what I was saying, you'd realize it is not a bitch
    > session.
    >
    > Yes, do away with HTML, XHTML, JavaScript, CSS and make it --
    >
    > CLD - Common Language Development, CLF - Common Language Framework
    >
    > If a huge base of HTML, XHTML, JavaScript, CSS code needs to be ported,
    > build a very good migration tool that will generate CLD (and do it right).
    >
    > Make CLD syntatically easy to follow/read and provide an rich intelligent
    > IDE environment that has markers that work beyond a single module, provide
    > more sophisticated lookup linking, improve help link system and provide
    > MUCH more real world code samples in the help system. Provide managed and
    > unmanaged connection options, provide a real debugger (similar in power to
    > VB6 debugger). Just make life easier for the developer so we can get more
    > done, higher quality, and in less time.
    >
    > That would be a start -- something .NET should have been but failed. And
    > don't start on "cross-platform" -- make that come later as "needed" (if
    > needed at all)? I mean that is the way it stands right now, you don't see
    > many folks doing ASP.NET with .NET Framework development on Unix servers.
    > This is not a debate about which is better, it is a reality of the
    > situation. Don't build an enormous amount of cross-platform
    > compatibility/flexibilty that is going to be used by <2% of dev community.
    >
    > Rob.
    >
    > Rob.
    >
    >
    > "Juan T. Llibre" <> wrote in message
    > news:...
    >> re:
    >>>I don't know, don't care

    >>
    >> Yup, that sums up your stance.
    >>
    >> You are confirming that you'd rather complain,
    >> than work towards getting a better product.
    >>
    >> Do you have *anything* positive to offer ?
    >> Like, maybe, a suggestion or two ?
    >>
    >> Or, as is apparent, do you prefer to bitch
    >> without offering any suggestions for improvement ?
    >>
    >> You don't offer any alternatives,
    >> and you don't offer any suggestions for improvement.
    >>
    >> You just bitch. That doesn't get us anywhere.
    >>
    >>
    >>
    >> Juan T. Llibre
    >> ASP.NET MVP
    >> http://asp.net.do/foros/
    >> Foros de ASP.NET en Español
    >> Ven, y hablemos de ASP.NET...
    >> ======================
    >>
    >> "Rob R. Ainscough" <> wrote in message
    >> news:%...
    >>> Why are you intent on comparisons? I'm not, so why are you? Who does
    >>> it better, I don't know, don't care -- I just want the insanity of
    >>> language of the day to be over so we can concentrate on design and
    >>> produce results and less of "oh yeah, can't do that with ASP.NET so ya
    >>> have to do some JavaScript and do a little HTML setup work and...".
    >>>
    >>> So I take it you agree with the obvious problem in efficiency? yes or
    >>> no?
    >>>
    >>> Against choice? You on planet earth -- this ain't the business of pic
    >>> your favorite iPod color -- stay within context.
    >>>
    >>> You sound like a Microsoft troll -- get over your loyality already.

    >>
    >>> "Juan T. Llibre" <> wrote in message
    >>> news:...
    >>>> re:
    >>>>> listing 90 languages on my resume
    >>>>
    >>>> I see you're against choice.
    >>>>
    >>>> Do you understand the difference between
    >>>> *choice* of languages and learning all of them ?
    >>>>
    >>>> re:
    >>>>> MS have the resources, not I -- and we should be there by now
    >>>>
    >>>> OK, if not MS, then who ? Who is doing a better job than MS ?
    >>>> Who is "there by now" ?
    >>>>
    >>>>
    >>>>
    >>>> Juan T. Llibre
    >>>> ASP.NET MVP
    >>>> http://asp.net.do/foros/
    >>>> Foros de ASP.NET en Español
    >>>> Ven, y hablemos de ASP.NET...
    >>>> ======================
    >>>>
    >>>> "Rob R. Ainscough" <> wrote in message
    >>>> news:...
    >>>>> Mark,
    >>>>>
    >>>>> Because, learning the language of the day to accomplish the same tasks
    >>>>> over and over is NOT efficient -- that's why. Like I said, listing 90
    >>>>> languages on my resume is more of an embarrassment than an
    >>>>> accomplishment. The concepts don't change, only the syntax and all
    >>>>> the restrictions and limitations that go with it.
    >>>>>
    >>>>> MS have the resources, not I -- and we should be there by now -- but
    >>>>> as it stands today, we're a good 5-10 years away.
    >>>>>
    >>>>> No one is forcing you to post a response -- so what is your point??
    >>>>> So what is your point? Don't complain, don't make waves, just accept
    >>>>> it -- is that how you think -- be a sheep, baaa baaa baaa
    >>>>>
    >>>>> Rob.
    >>>>
    >>>>> "Mark Rae" <> wrote in message
    >>>>> news:...
    >>>>>> "Rob R. Ainscough" <> wrote in message
    >>>>>> news:...
    >>>>>>
    >>>>>>> There has got to be a better way?
    >>>>>>
    >>>>>> So why don't you develop it, smart-arse, instead of whinging because
    >>>>>> you're having to do some learning...?
    >>>>>>
    >>>>>> No-one's forcing you to use .NET.
    >>>>>>
    >>>>>> No-one's forcing you to write a single line of code.
    >>>>>>
    >>>>>> No-one's forcing you even to own a PC.
    >>>>
    >>>>
    >>>
    >>>

    >>
    >>

    >
    >
    Kevin Spencer, Jul 13, 2005
    #18
  19. While you're at it, suggest that Microsoft should do away
    with the W3C ( which is the standards body for HTML,
    XHTML, CSS, and a host of other web "standards" ).

    Then, Microsoft should do away with whomever
    it is that controls Javascript standards, so Microsoft
    can replace Javascript, HTML, XHTML, CSS with
    a Microsoft-created unified system to be called
    CLD - Common Language Development and with
    CLF - Common Language Framework

    How soon would the Justice Dept. breathe
    on Microsoft's neck for attempting to do that ?

    Maybe you should give this a bit more thought...




    Juan T. Llibre
    ASP.NET MVP
    http://asp.net.do/foros/
    Foros de ASP.NET en Español
    Ven, y hablemos de ASP.NET...
    ======================

    "Rob R. Ainscough" <> wrote in message
    news:...
    > If you understood what I was saying, you'd realize it is not a bitch session.
    >
    > Yes, do away with HTML, XHTML, JavaScript, CSS and make it --
    >
    > CLD - Common Language Development, CLF - Common Language Framework
    >
    > If a huge base of HTML, XHTML, JavaScript, CSS code needs to be ported, build a very
    > good migration tool that will generate CLD (and do it right).
    >
    > Make CLD syntatically easy to follow/read and provide an rich intelligent IDE
    > environment that has markers that work beyond a single module, provide more
    > sophisticated lookup linking, improve help link system and provide MUCH more real world
    > code samples in the help system. Provide managed and unmanaged connection options,
    > provide a real debugger (similar in power to VB6 debugger). Just make life easier for
    > the developer so we can get more done, higher quality, and in less time.
    >
    > That would be a start -- something .NET should have been but failed. And don't start on
    > "cross-platform" -- make that come later as "needed" (if needed at all)? I mean that is
    > the way it stands right now, you don't see many folks doing ASP.NET with .NET Framework
    > development on Unix servers. This is not a debate about which is better, it is a reality
    > of the situation. Don't build an enormous amount of cross-platform
    > compatibility/flexibilty that is going to be used by <2% of dev community.
    >
    > Rob.
    >
    > Rob.
    >
    >
    > "Juan T. Llibre" <> wrote in message
    > news:...
    >> re:
    >>>I don't know, don't care

    >>
    >> Yup, that sums up your stance.
    >>
    >> You are confirming that you'd rather complain,
    >> than work towards getting a better product.
    >>
    >> Do you have *anything* positive to offer ?
    >> Like, maybe, a suggestion or two ?
    >>
    >> Or, as is apparent, do you prefer to bitch
    >> without offering any suggestions for improvement ?
    >>
    >> You don't offer any alternatives,
    >> and you don't offer any suggestions for improvement.
    >>
    >> You just bitch. That doesn't get us anywhere.
    >>
    >>
    >>
    >> Juan T. Llibre
    >> ASP.NET MVP
    >> http://asp.net.do/foros/
    >> Foros de ASP.NET en Español
    >> Ven, y hablemos de ASP.NET...
    >> ======================
    >>
    >> "Rob R. Ainscough" <> wrote in message
    >> news:%...
    >>> Why are you intent on comparisons? I'm not, so why are you? Who does it better, I
    >>> don't know, don't care -- I just want the insanity of language of the day to be over
    >>> so we can concentrate on design and produce results and less of "oh yeah, can't do
    >>> that with ASP.NET so ya have to do some JavaScript and do a little HTML setup work
    >>> and...".
    >>>
    >>> So I take it you agree with the obvious problem in efficiency? yes or no?
    >>>
    >>> Against choice? You on planet earth -- this ain't the business of pic your favorite
    >>> iPod color -- stay within context.
    >>>
    >>> You sound like a Microsoft troll -- get over your loyality already.

    >>
    >>> "Juan T. Llibre" <> wrote in message
    >>> news:...
    >>>> re:
    >>>>> listing 90 languages on my resume
    >>>>
    >>>> I see you're against choice.
    >>>>
    >>>> Do you understand the difference between
    >>>> *choice* of languages and learning all of them ?
    >>>>
    >>>> re:
    >>>>> MS have the resources, not I -- and we should be there by now
    >>>>
    >>>> OK, if not MS, then who ? Who is doing a better job than MS ?
    >>>> Who is "there by now" ?
    >>>>
    >>>>
    >>>>
    >>>> Juan T. Llibre
    >>>> ASP.NET MVP
    >>>> http://asp.net.do/foros/
    >>>> Foros de ASP.NET en Español
    >>>> Ven, y hablemos de ASP.NET...
    >>>> ======================
    >>>>
    >>>> "Rob R. Ainscough" <> wrote in message
    >>>> news:...
    >>>>> Mark,
    >>>>>
    >>>>> Because, learning the language of the day to accomplish the same tasks over and over
    >>>>> is NOT efficient -- that's why. Like I said, listing 90 languages on my resume is
    >>>>> more of an embarrassment than an accomplishment. The concepts don't change, only
    >>>>> the syntax and all the restrictions and limitations that go with it.
    >>>>>
    >>>>> MS have the resources, not I -- and we should be there by now -- but as it stands
    >>>>> today, we're a good 5-10 years away.
    >>>>>
    >>>>> No one is forcing you to post a response -- so what is your point?? So what is your
    >>>>> point? Don't complain, don't make waves, just accept it -- is that how you
    >>>>> think -- be a sheep, baaa baaa baaa
    >>>>>
    >>>>> Rob.
    >>>>
    >>>>> "Mark Rae" <> wrote in message
    >>>>> news:...
    >>>>>> "Rob R. Ainscough" <> wrote in message
    >>>>>> news:...
    >>>>>>
    >>>>>>> There has got to be a better way?
    >>>>>>
    >>>>>> So why don't you develop it, smart-arse, instead of whinging because you're having
    >>>>>> to do some learning...?
    >>>>>>
    >>>>>> No-one's forcing you to use .NET.
    >>>>>>
    >>>>>> No-one's forcing you to write a single line of code.
    >>>>>>
    >>>>>> No-one's forcing you even to own a PC.
    >>>>
    >>>>
    >>>
    >>>

    >>
    >>

    >
    >
    Juan T. Llibre, Jul 13, 2005
    #19
  20. Rob R. Ainscough

    Phillip Ian Guest

    >>Because, learning the language of the day to accomplish the same tasks over
    and over is NOT efficient -- that's why. Like I said, listing 90
    languages
    on my resume is more of an embarrassment than an accomplishment. The
    concepts don't change, only the syntax and all the restrictions and
    limitations that go with it.<<

    Are you suggesting that MS should come out with ONE language and
    somehow make everyone use it? That's ridiculous. The Microsoft = Borg
    crowd would have a field day with that. You want on language for
    everything, you go ahead and get all the programmers to agree on one,
    and maybe then MS will do it.

    Also, look at the list you provided in your original post. Only two of
    the things listed there are languages (VB and Javascript), and even in
    that case VB script exists, so you could get away with only one
    language. The rest are tools for different tasks. You're basically
    wondering why GM can't come up with a car that toasts my bread, so I
    won't have to learn how to use a toaster.

    -Phil
    Phillip Ian, Jul 13, 2005
    #20
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