Timeout value & session variables

Discussion in 'ASP General' started by doug, Jul 26, 2007.

  1. doug

    doug Guest

    I support several intranet sites one of which had NO STATE. Even though
    content has ASP extensions, it was all rendered HTML. Site had NO session or
    application variables being managed. Site had no global.asa. IIS Manager
    had site timeout set to 20 minutes.

    We had to add an ASP include to pages, and that ASP include contained our
    first session variable. Users then started complaining of timeouts and being
    redirected to logout pages because session variable evaporated. Users
    requested a 4 hour - 240 minute timeout. This was set in IIS Manager on
    site, and it didn't work. We added global.asa with timeout set in session
    on_start routine, and even though we could display the timeout variable at
    240 minutes, if we wait 30 minutes and pressed refresh on page displayed, it
    took logic path indicating session variable no longer set.

    Anyone know why we are experiencing this behavior?
    doug, Jul 26, 2007
    #1
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  2. "doug" <> wrote in message
    news:...
    > I support several intranet sites one of which had NO STATE. Even though
    > content has ASP extensions, it was all rendered HTML. Site had NO session

    or
    > application variables being managed. Site had no global.asa. IIS Manager
    > had site timeout set to 20 minutes.
    >
    > We had to add an ASP include to pages, and that ASP include contained our
    > first session variable. Users then started complaining of timeouts and

    being
    > redirected to logout pages because session variable evaporated. Users
    > requested a 4 hour - 240 minute timeout. This was set in IIS Manager on
    > site, and it didn't work. We added global.asa with timeout set in session
    > on_start routine, and even though we could display the timeout variable at
    > 240 minutes, if we wait 30 minutes and pressed refresh on page displayed,

    it
    > took logic path indicating session variable no longer set.
    >
    > Anyone know why we are experiencing this behavior?
    >


    Most likely the application pool is recycling.

    Take a look at the properties of the Application pool the site runs in. You
    will probably need to adjust the recycling and preformance tabs so that the
    workprocess is not recycled on a regular basis during normal use and that
    the idle timeout is longer than the session timeout you require.



    --
    Anthony Jones - MVP ASP/ASP.NET
    Anthony Jones, Jul 26, 2007
    #2
    1. Advertising

  3. Hi,

    If this is a Windows 2003 IIS 6.0 server, please check the site's
    application pool property. Verify the setting 'Shutdown worker processes
    after being idle for(time in minutes)'.

    The default setting of IIS6 is to shut down worker processes(web site/app
    pool instances) if there is no new requests come in for 20 mins. In this
    case, all the in-process sessions will be lost.

    Thanks.

    Sincerely,

    WenJun Zhang

    Microsoft Online Community Support

    ==================================================

    Get notification to my posts through email? Please refer to:
    http://msdn.microsoft.com/subscriptions/managednewsgroups/default.aspx#notif
    ications.

    Note: The MSDN Managed Newsgroup support offering is for non-urgent issues
    where an initial response from the community or a Microsoft Support
    Engineer within 1 business day is acceptable. Please note that each follow
    up response may take approximately 2 business days as the support
    professional working with you may need further investigation to reach the
    most efficient resolution. The offering is not appropriate for situations
    that require urgent, real-time or phone-based interactions or complex
    project analysis and dump analysis issues. Issues of this nature are best
    handled working with a dedicated Microsoft Support Engineer by contacting
    Microsoft Customer Support Services (CSS) at:

    http://msdn.microsoft.com/subscriptions/support/default.aspx.

    ==================================================

    This posting is provided "AS IS" with no warranties, and confers no rights.
    WenJun Zhang[msft], Jul 26, 2007
    #3
  4. doug

    doug Guest

    That was it. Thanks. I have to say I'm not a big fan of overlapping options
    of this nature.

    doug

    "Anthony Jones" wrote:

    > "doug" <> wrote in message
    > news:...
    > > I support several intranet sites one of which had NO STATE. Even though
    > > content has ASP extensions, it was all rendered HTML. Site had NO session

    > or
    > > application variables being managed. Site had no global.asa. IIS Manager
    > > had site timeout set to 20 minutes.
    > >
    > > We had to add an ASP include to pages, and that ASP include contained our
    > > first session variable. Users then started complaining of timeouts and

    > being
    > > redirected to logout pages because session variable evaporated. Users
    > > requested a 4 hour - 240 minute timeout. This was set in IIS Manager on
    > > site, and it didn't work. We added global.asa with timeout set in session
    > > on_start routine, and even though we could display the timeout variable at
    > > 240 minutes, if we wait 30 minutes and pressed refresh on page displayed,

    > it
    > > took logic path indicating session variable no longer set.
    > >
    > > Anyone know why we are experiencing this behavior?
    > >

    >
    > Most likely the application pool is recycling.
    >
    > Take a look at the properties of the Application pool the site runs in. You
    > will probably need to adjust the recycling and preformance tabs so that the
    > workprocess is not recycled on a regular basis during normal use and that
    > the idle timeout is longer than the session timeout you require.
    >
    >
    >
    > --
    > Anthony Jones - MVP ASP/ASP.NET
    >
    >
    >
    doug, Jul 26, 2007
    #4
  5. doug

    doug Guest

    This was it thanks.

    doug

    ""WenJun Zhang[msft]"" wrote:

    > Hi,
    >
    > If this is a Windows 2003 IIS 6.0 server, please check the site's
    > application pool property. Verify the setting 'Shutdown worker processes
    > after being idle for(time in minutes)'.
    >
    > The default setting of IIS6 is to shut down worker processes(web site/app
    > pool instances) if there is no new requests come in for 20 mins. In this
    > case, all the in-process sessions will be lost.
    >
    > Thanks.
    >
    > Sincerely,
    >
    > WenJun Zhang
    >
    > Microsoft Online Community Support
    >
    > ==================================================
    >
    > Get notification to my posts through email? Please refer to:
    > http://msdn.microsoft.com/subscriptions/managednewsgroups/default.aspx#notif
    > ications.
    >
    > Note: The MSDN Managed Newsgroup support offering is for non-urgent issues
    > where an initial response from the community or a Microsoft Support
    > Engineer within 1 business day is acceptable. Please note that each follow
    > up response may take approximately 2 business days as the support
    > professional working with you may need further investigation to reach the
    > most efficient resolution. The offering is not appropriate for situations
    > that require urgent, real-time or phone-based interactions or complex
    > project analysis and dump analysis issues. Issues of this nature are best
    > handled working with a dedicated Microsoft Support Engineer by contacting
    > Microsoft Customer Support Services (CSS) at:
    >
    > http://msdn.microsoft.com/subscriptions/support/default.aspx.
    >
    > ==================================================
    >
    > This posting is provided "AS IS" with no warranties, and confers no rights.
    >
    >
    doug, Jul 26, 2007
    #5
  6. doug

    doug Guest

    I'm not going to pretent I understand the nuances of this seeming overlapping
    set of options. I'm in an applications group and we have moved to IIS6 as
    part of a reband a year or so ago, and given tightened budgets in training,
    our training went to more direct skill needs. Don't these various settings
    in the app pool imply a depreciation of the site session timeout value? We
    had hoped to control our production timeout issue from the application side
    in that we can do an overnight content update via a new global.asa rather
    than go thru a 10 day lead time to request/implement changes to a web site
    from the server.



    ""WenJun Zhang[msft]"" wrote:

    > Hi,
    >
    > If this is a Windows 2003 IIS 6.0 server, please check the site's
    > application pool property. Verify the setting 'Shutdown worker processes
    > after being idle for(time in minutes)'.
    >
    > The default setting of IIS6 is to shut down worker processes(web site/app
    > pool instances) if there is no new requests come in for 20 mins. In this
    > case, all the in-process sessions will be lost.
    >
    > Thanks.
    >
    > Sincerely,
    >
    > WenJun Zhang
    >
    > Microsoft Online Community Support
    >
    > ==================================================
    >
    > Get notification to my posts through email? Please refer to:
    > http://msdn.microsoft.com/subscriptions/managednewsgroups/default.aspx#notif
    > ications.
    >
    > Note: The MSDN Managed Newsgroup support offering is for non-urgent issues
    > where an initial response from the community or a Microsoft Support
    > Engineer within 1 business day is acceptable. Please note that each follow
    > up response may take approximately 2 business days as the support
    > professional working with you may need further investigation to reach the
    > most efficient resolution. The offering is not appropriate for situations
    > that require urgent, real-time or phone-based interactions or complex
    > project analysis and dump analysis issues. Issues of this nature are best
    > handled working with a dedicated Microsoft Support Engineer by contacting
    > Microsoft Customer Support Services (CSS) at:
    >
    > http://msdn.microsoft.com/subscriptions/support/default.aspx.
    >
    > ==================================================
    >
    > This posting is provided "AS IS" with no warranties, and confers no rights.
    >
    >
    doug, Jul 26, 2007
    #6
  7. "doug" <> wrote in message
    news:...
    > I'm not going to pretent I understand the nuances of this seeming

    overlapping
    > set of options. I'm in an applications group and we have moved to IIS6 as
    > part of a reband a year or so ago, and given tightened budgets in

    training,
    > our training went to more direct skill needs. Don't these various

    settings
    > in the app pool imply a depreciation of the site session timeout value?

    We
    > had hoped to control our production timeout issue from the application

    side
    > in that we can do an overnight content update via a new global.asa rather
    > than go thru a 10 day lead time to request/implement changes to a web site
    > from the server.
    >


    A very active application pool would never shutdown due to an idle timeout.
    However individual sessions associated with an application in the pool may
    be abandoned due to inactivity from individual clients.

    Application pool idle also applies more broadly than to just ASP to include
    anything which requires handling by filters or other script engines. Which
    is pretty much most things.

    Also a single application pool can contain several distinct applications.
    All applications in the pool would have to be idle for the timeout to take
    effect. Each application may use its own ASP Session settings.

    There is an overlap but more in an umbrella sort of way than in a
    deprecating way.
    You may have a pool with an 4 hour timeout and containing two ASP
    applications one which also has a 4 hour timeout for its sessions and
    another where 15 mins is more appropriate. It would be annoying if you
    could only set the timeout on the application pool.


    --
    Anthony Jones - MVP ASP/ASP.NET
    Anthony Jones, Jul 26, 2007
    #7
  8. doug

    doug Guest

    That is one perspective. The other, ours, is our users made a good case for
    needing a 4 hour session. By your thinking, we would need to adjust the app
    pool timeouts to 4 hours (minimum) and then allow individual sites to tune
    their respective timeout to values less than 4 hours. I'm not sure I
    appreciate the umbrella nature provided if it means I need to effectively
    nullify the umbrella by setting the value so high to accomodate users session
    timeout needs.

    But I will look into learning more about IIS6 and the features it offers.

    Thanks for the insight.

    "Anthony Jones" wrote:

    > "doug" <> wrote in message
    > news:...
    > > I'm not going to pretent I understand the nuances of this seeming

    > overlapping
    > > set of options. I'm in an applications group and we have moved to IIS6 as
    > > part of a reband a year or so ago, and given tightened budgets in

    > training,
    > > our training went to more direct skill needs. Don't these various

    > settings
    > > in the app pool imply a depreciation of the site session timeout value?

    > We
    > > had hoped to control our production timeout issue from the application

    > side
    > > in that we can do an overnight content update via a new global.asa rather
    > > than go thru a 10 day lead time to request/implement changes to a web site
    > > from the server.
    > >

    >
    > A very active application pool would never shutdown due to an idle timeout.
    > However individual sessions associated with an application in the pool may
    > be abandoned due to inactivity from individual clients.
    >
    > Application pool idle also applies more broadly than to just ASP to include
    > anything which requires handling by filters or other script engines. Which
    > is pretty much most things.
    >
    > Also a single application pool can contain several distinct applications.
    > All applications in the pool would have to be idle for the timeout to take
    > effect. Each application may use its own ASP Session settings.
    >
    > There is an overlap but more in an umbrella sort of way than in a
    > deprecating way.
    > You may have a pool with an 4 hour timeout and containing two ASP
    > applications one which also has a 4 hour timeout for its sessions and
    > another where 15 mins is more appropriate. It would be annoying if you
    > could only set the timeout on the application pool.
    >
    >
    > --
    > Anthony Jones - MVP ASP/ASP.NET
    >
    >
    >
    >
    doug, Jul 26, 2007
    #8
  9. doug wrote:
    > That is one perspective. The other, ours, is our users made a good
    > case for needing a 4 hour session.

    Actually, it sounds to me as if they've made a strong case for storing state
    in a database rather than in Session.
    --
    Microsoft MVP - ASP/ASP.NET
    Please reply to the newsgroup. This email account is my spam trap so I
    don't check it very often. If you must reply off-line, then remove the
    "NO SPAM"
    Bob Barrows [MVP], Jul 26, 2007
    #9
  10. doug

    doug Guest

    You couldn't be more wrong. Until this requirement change to use this one
    single session variable, the server was "stateless". All content rendered
    and reposted nightly. No external connections allowed, no databases on
    server used. And until then, because sessions didn't appear to die, at least
    no symptoms, users had never experienced a timeout. And after long, quick
    discussions they decided on 240 minute (4 hour) timeout.

    All the other sites supported that have dynamic content seem to have
    timeouts set to 20 minutes or less so we hadn't seen it. This sight, by the
    nature of it, is just used a different way.


    "Bob Barrows [MVP]" wrote:

    > doug wrote:
    > > That is one perspective. The other, ours, is our users made a good
    > > case for needing a 4 hour session.

    > Actually, it sounds to me as if they've made a strong case for storing state
    > in a database rather than in Session.
    > --
    > Microsoft MVP - ASP/ASP.NET
    > Please reply to the newsgroup. This email account is my spam trap so I
    > don't check it very often. If you must reply off-line, then remove the
    > "NO SPAM"
    >
    >
    >
    doug, Jul 26, 2007
    #10
  11. You're missing my point, but I'm not going to argue with you.

    doug wrote:
    > You couldn't be more wrong. Until this requirement change to use
    > this one single session variable, the server was "stateless". All
    > content rendered and reposted nightly. No external connections
    > allowed, no databases on server used. And until then, because
    > sessions didn't appear to die, at least no symptoms, users had never
    > experienced a timeout. And after long, quick discussions they
    > decided on 240 minute (4 hour) timeout.
    >
    > All the other sites supported that have dynamic content seem to have
    > timeouts set to 20 minutes or less so we hadn't seen it. This sight,
    > by the nature of it, is just used a different way.
    >
    >
    > "Bob Barrows [MVP]" wrote:
    >
    >> doug wrote:
    >>> That is one perspective. The other, ours, is our users made a good
    >>> case for needing a 4 hour session.

    >> Actually, it sounds to me as if they've made a strong case for
    >> storing state in a database rather than in Session.
    >> --
    >> Microsoft MVP - ASP/ASP.NET
    >> Please reply to the newsgroup. This email account is my spam trap so
    >> I don't check it very often. If you must reply off-line, then remove
    >> the "NO SPAM"


    --
    Microsoft MVP - ASP/ASP.NET
    Please reply to the newsgroup. This email account is my spam trap so I
    don't check it very often. If you must reply off-line, then remove the
    "NO SPAM"
    Bob Barrows [MVP], Jul 26, 2007
    #11
  12. Hi,

    For a busy production site, generally the application pool idle shutdown
    setting will not affect session state since there are always new requests
    come in and *ping* the worker process.

    Actually the idle auto shutting down function is very important on server
    health because application pool can have multiple worker process instance
    in IIS 6.0 worker process mode. Based on these new health/recycling
    features of application pool, sometime web applications with small
    flaws(e.g occasional memory leak, deadlock, etc) can still *work* on IIS6
    but will fail on IIS 5.x or eariler.

    In this specific case, I'd suggest you adjust the idle shutdown time to a
    value greater than 4 hours instead of disabling it.

    Please let me know if you have more concern on this.

    Thanks.

    Sincerely,

    WenJun Zhang

    Microsoft Online Community Support

    ==================================================

    Get notification to my posts through email? Please refer to:
    http://msdn.microsoft.com/subscriptions/managednewsgroups/default.aspx#notif
    ications.

    Note: The MSDN Managed Newsgroup support offering is for non-urgent issues
    where an initial response from the community or a Microsoft Support
    Engineer within 1 business day is acceptable. Please note that each follow
    up response may take approximately 2 business days as the support
    professional working with you may need further investigation to reach the
    most efficient resolution. The offering is not appropriate for situations
    that require urgent, real-time or phone-based interactions or complex
    project analysis and dump analysis issues. Issues of this nature are best
    handled working with a dedicated Microsoft Support Engineer by contacting
    Microsoft Customer Support Services (CSS) at:

    http://msdn.microsoft.com/subscriptions/support/default.aspx.

    ==================================================

    This posting is provided "AS IS" with no warranties, and confers no rights.
    WenJun Zhang[msft], Jul 27, 2007
    #12
  13. Just want to check if you have any further question or concern on this?

    Have a great day.

    Sincerely,

    WenJun Zhang

    Microsoft Online Community Support

    ==================================================

    Get notification to my posts through email? Please refer to:
    http://msdn.microsoft.com/subscriptions/managednewsgroups/default.aspx#notif
    ications.

    Note: The MSDN Managed Newsgroup support offering is for non-urgent issues
    where an initial response from the community or a Microsoft Support
    Engineer within 1 business day is acceptable. Please note that each follow
    up response may take approximately 2 business days as the support
    professional working with you may need further investigation to reach the
    most efficient resolution. The offering is not appropriate for situations
    that require urgent, real-time or phone-based interactions or complex
    project analysis and dump analysis issues. Issues of this nature are best
    handled working with a dedicated Microsoft Support Engineer by contacting
    Microsoft Customer Support Services (CSS) at:

    http://msdn.microsoft.com/subscriptions/support/default.aspx.

    ==================================================

    This posting is provided "AS IS" with no warranties, and confers no rights.
    WenJun Zhang[msft], Jul 31, 2007
    #13
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