tools for programming applets

Discussion in 'Java' started by horos22, May 20, 2011.

  1. horos22

    horos22 Guest

    All,

    I was looking to do some quick java development of applets. Here's my
    situation:

    1. I have a static server (ie: that I cannot touch) which serves my
    client data (and applets).
    2. a bare-bones client programming setup (vim and java compiler)

    What I was hoping to do, therefore, is hijack the applets that are
    coming from the server, and replace them with my own, compiled ones,
    and hook the browser in such a way that when the applet is asked for,
    my applet fires instead (hopefully in debugging mode) using the data from the server as input.

    Surely this is a common enough situation that there are standard
    firefox plugins to do this..

    Or is it? In any case any, help on this would be most appreciated.

    Thanks much,

    Ed
     
    horos22, May 20, 2011
    #1
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  2. In message
    <>,
    horos22 wrote:

    > I was looking to do some quick java development of applets.


    Nobody uses applets any more. Go learn about DHTML, AJAX and HTML5.
     
    Lawrence D'Oliveiro, May 20, 2011
    #2
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  3. horos22

    Lew Guest

    Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:
    > horos22 wrote:
    >> I was looking to do some quick java development of applets.


    > Nobody uses applets any more. Go learn about DHTML, AJAX and HTML5.


    That doesn't answer his question, Lawrence, it doesn't help him, and it isn't
    true anyway.

    --
    Lew
    Honi soit qui mal y pense.
    http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/c/cf/Friz.jpg
     
    Lew, May 20, 2011
    #3
  4. horos22

    Lew Guest

    horos22 wrote:
    > I was looking to do some quick java [sic] development of applets. Here's my
    > situation:
    >
    > 1. I have a static server (ie: [sic] that I cannot touch) which serves my
    > client data (and applets).
    > 2. a bare-bones client programming setup (vim and java [sic] compiler)
    >
    > What I was hoping to do, therefore, is hijack the applets that are
    > coming from the server, and replace them with my own, compiled ones,
    > and hook the browser in such a way that when the applet is asked for,
    > my applet fires instead (hopefully in debugging mode) using the data from the server as input.
    >
    > Surely this is a common enough situation that there are standard
    > firefox plugins to do this..
    >
    > Or is it? In any case any, help on this would be most appreciated.


    No, applets are designed to load only from their own server. You'd have to do
    some rather funky and heinous man-in-the-middle attack on your own server, and
    I'm not even sure that would work. In any event, it's not only very far from
    a standard or common situation, it isn't really even supposed to be possible.

    --
    Lew
    Honi soit qui mal y pense.
    http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/c/cf/Friz.jpg
     
    Lew, May 20, 2011
    #4
  5. horos22

    markspace Guest

    On 5/20/2011 2:43 PM, horos22 wrote:

    > What I was hoping to do, therefore, is hijack the applets that are
    > coming from the server, and replace them with my own,



    This really isn't a normal scenario, afaics. You might want to explain
    a little more about the situation. Why can't you touch the sever? (And
    how is it "static"?)

    The normal scenario is to clone their server as your test environment,
    then modify your own little copy for each modification you make and test
    it. Obviously, if you don't need every file on the server, you can get
    by with just cloning the bits you need.
     
    markspace, May 21, 2011
    #5
  6. horos22

    Lew Guest

    markspace wrote:
    > horos22 wrote:
    >> What I was hoping to do, therefore, is hijack the applets that are
    >> coming from the server, and replace them with my own,


    > This really isn't a normal scenario, afaics. You might want to explain a
    > little more about the situation. Why can't you touch the sever? (And how is it
    > "static"?)
    >
    > The normal scenario is to clone their server as your test environment, then
    > modify your own little copy for each modification you make and test it.
    > Obviously, if you don't need every file on the server, you can get by with
    > just cloning the bits you need.


    Perhaps, OP, you're up to something nefarious or you'd simply test on
    localhost. Why aren't you testing on localhost, horos22? That would be the
    proper and safe and normal way to go from an engineering standpoint. The only
    reason I can think of to do what you want, horos22, is to crack someone's
    website to do harm.

    Why aren't you testing on localhost, horos22?

    --
    Lew
    Honi soit qui mal y pense.
    http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/c/cf/Friz.jpg
     
    Lew, May 21, 2011
    #6
  7. "Lawrence D'Oliveiro" <_zealand> wrote in message
    news:ir6o3o$uae$...
    > In message
    > <>,
    > horos22 wrote:
    >
    >> I was looking to do some quick java development of applets.

    >
    > Nobody uses applets any more. Go learn about DHTML, AJAX and HTML5.


    Yes, learn about the piece of shit that is "WebSockets" and how they're
    still disabled due to security (let alone prohibitively reduced
    functionality) flaws! Marvel at what "WorkerThreads" attempt to accomplish!
    Look on in awe at Comet and long-polling and the amount of time/money
    invested in trying to replicate what Applets have offered the Web-Developer
    for over a decade :-(

    Yes my little Google/Microsoft slaves, "all pluggins are bad". They've
    kiiled Java and are now doing their best to kill Flash. Just keep settling
    for second rate shite just as long as there's no pluggin required. (Having
    said that, with Oracle's ownership of Java and having seen what Ellison just
    did to HP/Itanium, there are certainly no benign let alone benevolent forces
    pulling the levers.)

    Regards Richard Maher
     
    Richard Maher, May 21, 2011
    #7
  8. On 05/20/2011 05:57 PM, Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:
    > In message
    > <>,
    > horos22 wrote:
    >
    >> I was looking to do some quick java development of applets.

    >
    > Nobody uses applets any more. Go learn about DHTML, AJAX and HTML5.


    No one uses DHTML anymore. At least not that term.

    And yes, people still use Java applets. I've found Java support for
    toolkits, e.g., easier to use than the JS ones I've poked at.

    --
    Beware of bugs in the above code; I have only proved it correct, not
    tried it. -- Donald E. Knuth
     
    Joshua Cranmer, May 21, 2011
    #8
  9. horos22

    markspace Guest

    On 5/20/2011 2:57 PM, Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:
    > In message
    > <>,
    > horos22 wrote:
    >
    >> I was looking to do some quick java development of applets.

    >
    > Nobody uses applets any more. Go learn about DHTML, AJAX and HTML5.



    <http://www.minecraft.net/play.jsp>

    "This game requires Java."
     
    markspace, May 21, 2011
    #9
  10. horos22

    horos22 Guest

    On May 20, 5:12 pm, Lew <> wrote:
    > markspace wrote:
    > > horos22 wrote:
    > >> What I was hoping to do, therefore, is hijack the applets that are
    > >> coming from the server, and replace them with my own,

    > > This really isn't a normal scenario, afaics. You might want to explain a
    > > little more about the situation. Why can't you touch the sever? (And how is it
    > > "static"?)

    >
    > > The normal scenario is to clone their server as your test environment, then
    > > modify your own little copy for each modification you make and test it.
    > > Obviously, if you don't need every file on the server, you can get by with
    > > just cloning the bits you need.

    >
    > Perhaps, OP, you're up to something nefarious or you'd simply test on
    > localhost.  Why aren't you testing on localhost, horos22?  That wouldbe the
    > proper and safe and normal way to go from an engineering standpoint.  The only
    > reason I can think of to do what you want, horos22, is to crack someone's
    > website to do harm.
    >


    Lew,

    The reason I don't clone their server is I don't have full access to
    it, and am unlikely to get full access to it. Frankly I don't want
    access to it. It is 'static' because I won't be able to change
    anything remotely. I can get source code to the applet, but I probably
    won't be able to upload it to any of their servers for testing. And
    testing on localhost is impossible if you rely on pieces of data from
    the remote server. You really want me to clone a database, web server,
    web configuration setup just to test one lousy applet?

    In order to do this, I shouldn't need access to *anything* external.
    I'm not 'hacking' anything besides my own client, and it *should* be
    as easy as simply replacing the remote applet for a local modified
    one. And I'd be perfectly fine with having to do something like asking
    the remote server admins to put an IP exemption in their server
    configuration in order to do this - *anything* just to avoid the
    headache of having to dup an entire environment.

    Frankly I'm surprised there isn't something like this. I can
    understand why it wouldn't be the standard or if you'd need a
    directive to javarun that requires authentication from the remote
    server to provide security for a non-standard local applet, but really
    - needing to rebuild the whole environment to just test a new applet
    strikes me as using a tail to wag the dog.

    Ed

    > Why aren't you testing on localhost, horos22?
    >
    > --
    > Lew
    > Honi soit qui mal y pense.http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/c/cf/Friz.jpg
     
    horos22, May 21, 2011
    #10
  11. horos22

    Roedy Green Guest

    On Fri, 20 May 2011 14:43:04 -0700 (PDT), horos22
    <> wrote, quoted or indirectly quoted someone who
    said :

    >I was looking to do some quick java development of applets. Here's my
    >situation:
    >
    >1. I have a static server (ie: that I cannot touch) which serves my
    >client data (and applets).
    >2. a bare-bones client programming setup (vim and java compiler)
    >
    >What I was hoping to do, therefore, is hijack the applets that are
    >coming from the server, and replace them with my own, compiled ones,
    >and hook the browser in such a way that when the applet is asked for,
    >my applet fires instead (hopefully in debugging mode) using the data from the server as input.
    >
    >Surely this is a common enough situation that there are standard
    >firefox plugins to do this..
    >
    >Or is it? In any case any, help on this would be most appreciated.


    So you need to set up an alternate website, with your Applets on it.
    You then need to server some webpages with <APPLET tags that refer to
    your Applets. It sounds like you want to ignore the original website
    entirely? no? Perhaps your applets could set some GET requests to the
    orginal website if they wanted information from it. See
    http://mindprod.com/products1.html#HTTP
    --
    Roedy Green Canadian Mind Products
    http://mindprod.com
    How long did it take after the car was invented before owners understood
    cars would not work unless you regularly changed the oil and the tires?
    We have gone 33 years and still it is rare to uncover a user who
    understands computers don't work without regular backups.
     
    Roedy Green, May 21, 2011
    #11
  12. On 05/21/2011 12:10 PM, horos22 wrote:
    > Frankly I'm surprised there isn't something like this. I can
    > understand why it wouldn't be the standard or if you'd need a
    > directive to javarun that requires authentication from the remote
    > server to provide security for a non-standard local applet, but really
    > - needing to rebuild the whole environment to just test a new applet
    > strikes me as using a tail to wag the dog.


    Java applets were designed to be as secure as possible. Hence why, for
    example, they are forbidden from opening a network connection to
    anywhere other than their source domain. Allowing you to replace your
    own applet to run in another's context domain is a recipe for security
    holes; in principle, you could allow the server to list other applets
    that can run in their domain (in similarity to how CORS stuff works),
    but that is essentially the same level of changes needed as hosting
    another copy of the applet.

    --
    Beware of bugs in the above code; I have only proved it correct, not
    tried it. -- Donald E. Knuth
     
    Joshua Cranmer, May 21, 2011
    #12
  13. On 5/20/2011 2:57 PM, Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:
    > In message
    > <>,
    > horos22 wrote:
    >
    >> I was looking to do some quick java development of applets.

    >


    > Nobody uses applets any more. Go learn about DHTML, AJAX and HTML5.


    I find the above really strange, since when I look around on the net,
    I see nothing even close to what can be done today using Java applets.

    And Java is open source now also. isn't?

    If you can show me just ONE web site, with simulations and
    animation written in Javascript and html5, that are as good and
    advanced as say the following well known Java applets sites, then
    I will believe you:

    http://www.falstad.com/mathphysics.html
    http://www.myphysicslab.com/index.html
    http://www.ph.biu.ac.il/~rapaport/java-apps/

    And thousands more.

    All what I have seen so far for demos written in Javascript and HTML5
    are child like little toy applications compared to what can be done with
    Java applets, today.

    And Java applets now run well, not like many years ago, when, yes, they
    did have performance issues, but it seems to me most of this is fixed now,
    I hardly have a problem now running a Java applet these days.

    Sometimes I get missing class error while loading, but that seems
    to be a packaging/configuration error from the author, not Java itself.

    Why the industry have to reinvent the wheel again every few years,
    I never know. Why not improve what works today to make it better?

    --Nasser
     
    Nasser M. Abbasi, May 21, 2011
    #13
  14. In message <ir74fv$hq3$>, Joshua Cranmer wrote:

    > On 05/20/2011 05:57 PM, Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:
    >
    >> In message
    >> <028d2009-98b7-43a3-

    >,
    >> horos22 wrote:
    >>
    >>> I was looking to do some quick java development of applets.

    >>
    >> Nobody uses applets any more. Go learn about DHTML, AJAX and HTML5.

    >
    > No one uses DHTML anymore. At least not that term.


    I guess they just say “JavaScriptâ€.
     
    Lawrence D'Oliveiro, May 22, 2011
    #14
  15. In message <ir931a$sod$>, Nasser M. Abbasi wrote:

    > On 5/20/2011 2:57 PM, Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:
    >
    >> In message
    >> <028d2009-98b7-43a3-

    >,
    >> horos22 wrote:
    >>
    >>> I was looking to do some quick java development of applets.

    >>
    >> Nobody uses applets any more. Go learn about DHTML, AJAX and HTML5.

    >
    > I find the above really strange, since when I look around on the net,
    > I see nothing even close to what can be done today using Java applets.


    Looked at Google Maps? And Google Docs? And whatever the Microsoft
    equivalent is—365 somethingorother?

    > And Java is open source now also. isn't?


    Not quite. And with Oracle busily destroying every single open-source
    project they bought with Sun...

    > If you can show me just ONE web site, with simulations and
    > animation written in Javascript and html5, that are as good and
    > advanced as say the following well known Java applets sites, then
    > I will believe you:
    >
    > http://www.falstad.com/mathphysics.html
    > http://www.myphysicslab.com/index.html
    > http://www.ph.biu.ac.il/~rapaport/java-apps/


    Real-world businesses are running mission-critical systems in the cloud. And
    the cloud isn’t Java applets.

    > Why the industry have to reinvent the wheel again every few years,
    > I never know.


    Well, if Sun hadn’t had such a precious attitude toward Java...
     
    Lawrence D'Oliveiro, May 22, 2011
    #15
  16. "horos22" <> wrote in message
    news:...
    > All,
    >
    > I was looking to do some quick java development of applets. Here's my
    > situation:
    >
    > 1. I have a static server (ie: that I cannot touch) which serves my
    > client data (and applets).
    > 2. a bare-bones client programming setup (vim and java compiler)
    >
    > What I was hoping to do, therefore, is hijack the applets that are
    > coming from the server, and replace them with my own, compiled ones,
    > and hook the browser in such a way that when the applet is asked for,
    > my applet fires instead (hopefully in debugging mode) using the data from
    > the server as input.
    >
    > Surely this is a common enough situation that there are standard
    > firefox plugins to do this..
    >
    > Or is it? In any case any, help on this would be most appreciated.
    >
    > Thanks much,
    >
    > Ed


    Hi Ed,

    Is the Applet codebase URL different the HTTP webserver (even if the point
    to the same IP). While testing then why not just get whatever clients/users
    that are involved to put a localhosts entry for the codebase?

    Regards Richard Maher
     
    Richard Maher, May 22, 2011
    #16
  17. In message
    <>, horos22
    wrote:

    > You really want me to clone a database, web server,
    > web configuration setup just to test one lousy applet?


    Just a quick rsync command. How hard could it be?
     
    Lawrence D'Oliveiro, May 22, 2011
    #17
  18. horos22

    horos22 Guest


    > Java applets were designed to be as secure as possible. Hence why, for
    > example, they are forbidden from opening a network connection to
    > anywhere other than their source domain. Allowing you to replace your
    > own applet to run in another's context domain is a recipe for security
    > holes; in principle, you could allow the server to list other applets
    > that can run in their domain (in similarity to how CORS stuff works),
    > but that is essentially the same level of changes needed as hosting
    > another copy of the applet.
    >
    > --

    Josuha,

    I understand that this is a security risk - if used in production
    systems. But as a development tool, it's invaluable.

    Consider protocol development. When I develop a ssh client, or mysql
    client, or iscsi client, I don't need to make a new server instance or
    somehow have to duplicate the server environment. The tests are
    *client* driven. I change the client, and as long as the protocol
    works, I can make whatever changes I want behind the scenes without
    touching *anything* except the source code on the client.

    Suppose you had 10 developers working on an applet. What are they
    supposed to do? Duplicate the parent environment 10 separate times?
    What if the central environment changes? Do you then need to propogate
    those changes to all 10 daughter environments? what if two people want
    to merge changes or then test their changes our versus production
    data? Do they need then to impact production by having their applet
    hosted in the production world?

    This makes no sense. I can't believe there isn't something out there
    to do this. Unix has a permissions system and its invaluable - you
    open up the permissions on things to do development, get stuff done,
    and then close down the permissions when you ship. There's gotta be a
    way to overcome the extreme development penalty inherent in cloning
    environments here; elsewise I feel damn sorry for the java applet
    developer..

    Ed
     
    horos22, May 22, 2011
    #18
  19. horos22

    horos22 Guest

    On May 21, 8:38 pm, Lawrence D'Oliveiro <l...@geek-
    central.gen.new_zealand> wrote:
    > In message
    > <>, horos22
    > wrote:
    >
    > > You really want me to clone a database, web server,
    > > web configuration setup just to test one lousy applet?

    >
    > Just a quick rsync command. How hard could it be?


    Hm.. a quick rsync comand. Plus:

    1. an extra box for hosting the server
    2. installs of any centralized tools (mysql, etc)
    3. copying of production data
    4. porting of the server web setup to my client
    5. the need to reflect any changes that production makes.
    6. Any cross-platform changes necessary in going from linux server to
    a microsoft client.

    You've GOT to be kidding me.

    Ed
     
    horos22, May 22, 2011
    #19
  20. horos22

    horos22 Guest

    On May 21, 5:05 pm, "Richard Maher" <>
    wrote:
    > "horos22" <> wrote in message
    >
    > news:...
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >
    > > All,

    >
    > > I was looking to do some quick java development of applets. Here's my
    > > situation:

    >
    > > 1. I have a static server (ie: that I cannot touch) which serves my
    > > client data (and applets).
    > > 2. a bare-bones client programming setup (vim and java compiler)

    >
    > > What I was hoping to do, therefore, is hijack the applets that are
    > > coming from the server, and replace them with my own, compiled ones,
    > > and hook the browser in such a way that when the applet is asked for,
    > > my applet fires instead (hopefully in debugging mode) using the data from
    > > the server as input.

    >
    > > Surely this is a common enough situation that there are standard
    > > firefox plugins to do this..

    >
    > > Or is it? In any case any, help on this would be most appreciated.

    >
    > > Thanks much,

    >
    > > Ed

    >
    > Hi Ed,
    >
    > Is the Applet codebase URL different the HTTP webserver (even if the point
    > to the same IP). While testing then why not just get whatever clients/users
    > that are involved to put a localhosts entry for the codebase?
    >
    > Regards Richard Maher


    I guess I could use a little more detail here since I really am not
    familiar with applet development or programming. Do you have a good
    pointer to a decent resource on the subject, say for setting this up
    with apache?

    My client that I'm going to be working on is totally separate from the
    server. Hopefully, I'm going to be doing development locally, and
    then, when done, uploading the code changes to the server. If there is
    a simple applet directive that I could put in a test page that could
    take the code from localhost and run it against data that is hosted on
    the server, then that is exactly what I need.

    Ed
     
    horos22, May 22, 2011
    #20
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