TRAC - Trac, Project Leads, Python, and Mr. Noah Kantrowitz(sanitizer)

Discussion in 'Ruby' started by Ilias Lazaridis, Feb 16, 2008.

  1. Essence:

    * Trac is deficient, cause of "proud to be an egoism driven amateur"
    developers
    * Python and it's communities is excellent for learning. Not
    programming, but to "learn from deficiency", community organization,
    transparency, efficiency etc.!
    * Do it in perl, if you need something more 'pretty', do it in ruby,
    if you need something more 'serious' do it in java, if you have enough
    brain and time, do it in C++ from bottom up.


    -

    I don't think that's a secret anymore. Anyone should know that the
    trac team has huge problems to bring trac forward. People who have
    looked at the code-base and project understand some reason: difficult
    to maintain 'spaghetti-code' in many places, disorganized project,
    missing separations of concerns etc.! I've provided an overview some
    time ago

    http://case.lazaridis.com/wiki/TracAudit

    At this time the developers are searching like crazy to find a mem-
    leak... since months.

    http://trac.edgewall.org/ticket/6614

    But the main problem with the trac team is the processing within
    project resources. Believe it or not, developers can act within this
    project as they like, 'trimming' ticket comments in a way that a
    ticket gets a totally other meaning.

    The main specialist for this is Mr. Noah Kantrowitz. He calls it
    "sanitizing". The team hides behind him, cowardly, without any public
    vote.

    How did everything start?

    I post a simple message to trac-users (note: the user resource, NOT
    the developer resource), in order to extend my custom version of trac
    0.11 a little. The message did not appear, as my email is under
    moderation. I do not switch to another email, as I write always with
    the same identity.

    So i file a ticket within the ticket system (here you can see the
    "After a quick vote, it has been decided to sanitize this ticket. "...
    I start to like this "sanitize" term, sounds really interesting)

    http://trac.edgewall.org/ticket/6802

    Mr. Noah Kantrowitz deleted the discussion, but I've saved it here,
    thus you can see that the developers of trac have no idea about their
    own processes:

    http://case.lazaridis.com/ticket/48

    After the developers placed the usual irrelevant comments (remember: I
    just asked them to stop blocking my messages to trac users), they
    "brute force closed" the ticket.

    I've opened a new one, directly adressed to the project lead, in order
    to complain about the developers which violate the project processes,
    and to ask for a formal vote:

    http://trac.edgewall.org/ticket/6844

    Right! Mr. Noah Kantrowitz plays again "wild west". I relly don't know
    who of those two is more funny: the one who plays the dictator, or the
    other joker who suggests to revers the process (I should find
    developers to veto against the censorship and send the to the team).

    Remember: we are talking about the trac-user group.

    I really cannot believe that a whole team can be in such way confused,
    nuts, blind, egoism-driven etc.! Possibly they have lost the password
    to the trac-user group, and are not able to manage it - who knows. I
    would not wonder, seeing thos terrible processes and the rejection to
    improve them.

    (btw: If you like to act against censorship, please post this message
    to trac-users, thus the get informed about the teams processing)

    And we are talking about censorship of a trac 0.11dev custom-version-
    developer. A custom version with localization support, plugin-bundles
    (product-plugin) which run out of the svn, an fully functional but
    simple side-navigation, and... everything deactivatable with a very
    simple way, thus the original trac is there again.

    http://dev.lazaridis.com/base

    Open Source works like this: many many small human ego's need to be
    fitted. There's no place for developers which could redesign the whole
    thing within a few months. the trac-developers need to 'fight' with
    tons of spaghetti. The developers plan like crazy, instead to merge
    with a application framework like e.g. turbogears. Did you know that
    trac has no support for... datetime fields? Yes, its true.

    You may say: do it yourself. Of course I could do it, even without
    touching the main sources (using dyna-patches or monkeypatches). But
    that's not how open-source works. You implement thing for yourself and
    contribute things back to the core-project - but with trac there's one
    problem: no one get's the core anymore (apparently the initial
    developer has left)

    Of course I'll not stay with trac, I'll leave the sinking ship, I've
    prepare long time ago to do so, step by step. An will migrate step by
    step away from trac and python - toward an own implementation based
    on...

    perl and it's libraries.

    Really, I don't understand the need for python. And after fighting
    with some indenting within html templates, I dislike the whitespace-
    syntax-thing of python again.

    Do it in perl, if you need something more 'pretty', do it in ruby, if
    you need something more 'serious' do it in java, if you have enough
    brain and time, do it in C++ from bottom up.

    Python and it's communities is excellent for learning. Not
    programming, but to "learn from deficiency", community organization,
    transparency, efficiency etc.!

    -

    So, keep your eyes on this project, if you want to be prepared to jump-
    off the sinking ship "trac"

    http://dev.lazaridis.com/base/



    -

    Party Time!

    ..
     
    Ilias Lazaridis, Feb 16, 2008
    #1
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  2. Robert Klemme, Feb 16, 2008
    #2
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  3. Re: TRAC - Trac, Project Leads, Python, and Mr. Noah Kantrowitz (sanitizer)

    On Sat, Feb 16, 2008, Robert Klemme wrote:
    > Oh, it's him again. Please do not respond.


    Just like you didn't?

    Oh wait.
     
    Ben Bleything, Feb 16, 2008
    #3
  4. Re: TRAC - Trac, Project Leads, Python, and Mr. Noah Kantrowitz (sanitizer)

    ["Followup-To:" header set to comp.lang.perl.misc.]


    Jeff Schwab <> wrote:
    > Robert Klemme wrote:
    >> On 16.02.2008 13:16, Ilias Lazaridis wrote:
    >>
    >> <snip/>
    >>
    >> Oh, it's him again. Please do not respond.
    >>
    >> http://dev.eclipse.org/newslists/news.eclipse.foundation/msg00167.html
    >> http://www.encyclopediadramatica.com/index.php/Ilias

    >
    > Thank you. I didn't recognize his name at first.



    I had the post already pegged as bait simply by counting
    the number of commas in the Newsgroups header. :)


    --
    Tad McClellan
    email: perl -le "print scalar reverse qq/moc.noitatibaher\100cmdat/"
     
    Tad J McClellan, Feb 16, 2008
    #4
  5. On 16 Öåâ, 15:45, Robert Klemme <> wrote:
    > On 16.02.2008 13:16, Ilias Lazaridis wrote:
    >
    > <snip/>
    >
    > Oh, it's him again. Please do not respond.
    >
    > http://dev.eclipse.org/newslists/news.eclipse.foundation/msg00167.html


    Thanks, nice message, I've added it to the section:

    http://case.lazaridis.com/wiki/CoreLiveEval#WhatPeopleThink

    > http://www.encyclopediadramatica.com/index.php/Ilias


    It's really funny how easily people fall into the
    "encyclopediadramatica-trap"... really funny.

    "
    While the articles themselves are mostly satirical jabs at Internet
    users (both individually and in groups) and phenomena, bear in mind
    that the Encyclopedia Dramatica itself is a parody of a much less
    funny online encyclopedia. As such, ED articles tend to make fun of
    the supposed objectivity and accuracy, elitism, and stupid edit wars
    of such sites. In other words, expect blatant, biased lies, and expect
    boring truths to get deleted quickly."
    http://www.encyclopediadramatica.com/Encyclopedia_Dramatica:About

    > Cheers
    >
    > robert
     
    Ilias Lazaridis, Feb 17, 2008
    #5
  6. Ilias Lazaridis

    Marc Heiler Guest

    Re: TRAC - Trac, Project Leads, Python, and Mr. Noah Kantrow

    Wow... I dont like python much as a language. I respect it though
    because it did away with the ugly line noise of perl. (But ruby did a
    lot better).

    However, there is one huge reason why trac became so popular - there is
    a DEMAND for these applications.

    The very same happened with Mantis. It didnt have much in the beginning,
    but it was (and is) constantly growing.

    At one point it hardly matters how messy something is, as long as people
    drive it forward - take phpbb3 for example.

    I'd wish ruby would jump in but this all takes a little bit of effort
    after effort, and there is no point at all in writing so much about a
    project YOU dislike. I couldnt even stop writing what I dislike ... like
    all the various perl scripts bundled in countless software apps - they
    should be ruby scripts instead. :)

    But as long as people all agree that the www has become incredibly
    important, i am fine. Because the drive-on seems to steered in the right
    direction.
    --
    Posted via http://www.ruby-forum.com/.
     
    Marc Heiler, Feb 17, 2008
    #6
  7. Re: TRAC - Trac, Project Leads, Python, and Mr. Noah Kantrow

    Marc Heiler wrote:
    > Wow... I dont like python much as a language. I respect it though
    > because it did away with the ugly line noise of perl. (But ruby did a
    > lot better).
    >
    > However, there is one huge reason why trac became so popular - there is
    > a DEMAND for these applications.
    >
    > The very same happened with Mantis. It didnt have much in the beginning,
    > but it was (and is) constantly growing.
    >
    > At one point it hardly matters how messy something is, as long as people
    > drive it forward - take phpbb3 for example.
    >
    > I'd wish ruby would jump in but this all takes a little bit of effort
    > after effort, and there is no point at all in writing so much about a
    > project YOU dislike. I couldnt even stop writing what I dislike ... like
    > all the various perl scripts bundled in countless software apps - they
    > should be ruby scripts instead. :)
    >
    > But as long as people all agree that the www has become incredibly
    > important, i am fine. Because the drive-on seems to steered in the right
    > direction.

    well you can always use redmine :p
     
    Marcin Raczkowski, Feb 17, 2008
    #7
  8. Re: TRAC - Trac, Project Leads, Python, and Mr. Noah Kantrowitz (sanitizer)

    On Sat, 16 Feb 2008, Robert Klemme wrote:

    > http://www.encyclopediadramatica.com/index.php/Ilias


    Very witty article, made me laugh, thanks!
    *t

    --
    -----------------------------------------------------------
    Tomas Pospisek
    http://sourcepole.com - Linux & Open Source Solutions
    -----------------------------------------------------------
     
    Tomas Pospisek's Mailing Lists, Feb 17, 2008
    #8
  9. Ilias Lazaridis

    Ryan Davis Guest

    Re: TRAC - Trac, Project Leads, Python, and Mr. Noah Kantrowitz (sanitizer)

    On Feb 16, 2008, at 05:49 , Robert Klemme wrote:

    > Oh, it's him again. Please do not respond.
    >
    > http://dev.eclipse.org/newslists/news.eclipse.foundation/msg00167.html
    > http://www.encyclopediadramatica.com/index.php/Ilias


    Seconded:

    From: http://www.zenspider.com/Languages/Ruby/IliasIsCrazy.html

    "Ilias is a character on ruby-talk / comp.lang.ruby that is dominating
    threads right now. Some consider him a troll, others just a loon.
    Either way, he is ruining the signal:noise ration. He did the same on
    comp.lang.lisp and they drove him out by ignoring him after only 3
    months. In that 3 month span however, he wrote 518 different posts
    (according to google groups). That is horrid. We shouldn't let him do
    that to comp.lang.ruby. [...]"

    I authored this THREE YEARS AGO... please don't let him come back by
    responding to him. It only empowers him.
     
    Ryan Davis, Feb 18, 2008
    #9
  10. [RESEND answer to all initial groups]

    On 16 Öåâ, 19:15, Jeff Schwab <> wrote:

    > Ilias Lazaridis wrote:
    > > Essence:


    > <snip>Spam spam spam spam...</snip>


    > I just looked at your resume.


    http://lazaridis.com/resumes/lazaridis.html

    (need to update it, lot's of irrelevant stuff, should focus on my
    failures)

    > What is Abstract Project Management?


    I've mentioned "abstract _product_ management"

    Don't know exactly, I've never tried to articulate the meaning which
    I've internally.

    You could extract the meaning from "Abstract Base Class" or
    "Abstractness" in general.

    Something like "universal product management".

    Or managing a product without having many specific information about
    it.

    Something like this _possibly_:

    http://case.lazaridis.com/wiki/KomodoAudit
     
    Ilias Lazaridis, Feb 18, 2008
    #10
  11. Ilias Lazaridis

    Guest

    Dear Ilias,

    Post in a single reply.

    Coko
     
    , Feb 18, 2008
    #11
  12. schrieb:
    > Dear Ilias,
    >
    > Post in a single reply.


    He has to, in hopes to gain the traction he desires - as otherwise he's
    pretty much ignored these days. Which is a good thing of course...

    Diez
     
    Diez B. Roggisch, Feb 18, 2008
    #12
  13. On Feb 18, 6:56 pm, "Diez B. Roggisch" <> wrote:
    > schrieb:
    >
    > > Dear Ilias,

    >
    > > Post in a single reply.

    >
    > He has to, in hopes to gain the traction he desires

    ^^^^

    Was the pun intended ? ;-)
     
    George Sakkis, Feb 19, 2008
    #13
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