Type sizs on Mac and PC

Discussion in 'HTML' started by The Devil's Advocate©, Jan 29, 2004.

  1. Mac displays type slightly larger than a PC which tends to mess up
    html tables and such. What is the common solution for this? I'd like
    to get type to display at the same apparent size on both platforms.

    Also- If you have a second and you know of some websites that have a
    commercial and cutting-edge look mtv.com please post some. Thanks.
    The Devil's Advocate©, Jan 29, 2004
    #1
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  2. The Devil's Advocate©

    Luna Guest

    In article <>,
    The Devil's Advocate? <> wrote:

    > Mac displays type slightly larger than a PC which tends to mess up
    > html tables and such. What is the common solution for this? I'd like
    > to get type to display at the same apparent size on both platforms.
    >
    > Also- If you have a second and you know of some websites that have a
    > commercial and cutting-edge look mtv.com please post some. Thanks.


    You can use CSS to specify a pixel size for the font, that way it will be
    the same on both macs and Pcs.

    --
    Michelle Levin
    http://www.mindspring.com/~lunachick

    I have only 3 flaws. My first flaw is thinking that I only have 3 flaws.
    Luna, Jan 29, 2004
    #2
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  3. The Devil's Advocate© schrieb:
    > Mac displays type slightly larger than a PC which tends to mess up
    > html tables and such. What is the common solution for this? I'd like
    > to get type to display at the same apparent size on both platforms.


    set your font-size in pixel, then you don't have to worry about
    resolution. a pixel is 1 pixel on a monitor, is 1 pixel on a mac, on a
    windoze machine, on linux, on mobile phones... ;-)

    bernhard
    ---
    www.daszeichen.ch
    remove nixspam to reply
    Bernhard Sturm, Jan 29, 2004
    #3
  4. The Devil's Advocate©

    PeterMcC Guest

    Luna <> wrote in
    <>

    > In article <>,
    > The Devil's Advocate? <> wrote:
    >
    >> Mac displays type slightly larger than a PC which tends to mess up
    >> html tables and such. What is the common solution for this? I'd like
    >> to get type to display at the same apparent size on both platforms.
    >>
    >> Also- If you have a second and you know of some websites that have a
    >> commercial and cutting-edge look mtv.com please post some. Thanks.

    >
    > You can use CSS to specify a pixel size for the font, that way it
    > will be the same on both macs and Pcs.


    Just because you can doesn't mean you should...

    See what happens when you x-post to alt.design.graphics :)

    --
    PeterMcC
    If you feel that any of the above is incorrect,
    inappropriate or offensive in any way,
    please ignore it and accept my apologies.
    PeterMcC, Jan 29, 2004
    #4
  5. The Devil's Advocate©

    Chris Morris Guest

    Bernhard Sturm <> writes:
    > The Devil's Advocate© schrieb:
    > > Mac displays type slightly larger than a PC which tends to mess up
    > > html tables and such. What is the common solution for this? I'd like
    > > to get type to display at the same apparent size on both platforms.

    >
    > set your font-size in pixel, then you don't have to worry about
    > resolution. a pixel is 1 pixel on a monitor, is 1 pixel on a mac, on a
    > windoze machine, on linux, on mobile phones... ;-)


    On a video projector displaying on a 6 foot screen at 3000x3000
    resolution...

    Just taking a quick straw poll of the machines in this office (14-17"
    monitors, some flatscreen, some CRT, mostly at 800/600 or 1024/768
    resolution) the size of a pixel varies by about 40%. With more exotic
    displays this variance would probably rise considerably.

    --
    Chris
    Chris Morris, Jan 29, 2004
    #5
  6. The Devil's Advocate©

    SpaceGirl Guest

    "PeterMcC" <> wrote in message
    news:6AaSb.28960$9.net...
    > Luna <> wrote in
    > <>
    >
    > > In article <>,
    > > The Devil's Advocate? <> wrote:
    > >
    > >> Mac displays type slightly larger than a PC which tends to mess up
    > >> html tables and such. What is the common solution for this? I'd like
    > >> to get type to display at the same apparent size on both platforms.
    > >>
    > >> Also- If you have a second and you know of some websites that have a
    > >> commercial and cutting-edge look mtv.com please post some. Thanks.

    > >
    > > You can use CSS to specify a pixel size for the font, that way it
    > > will be the same on both macs and Pcs.

    >
    > Just because you can doesn't mean you should...
    >
    > See what happens when you x-post to alt.design.graphics :)



    There are good design reasons for you locking font sizes, and usability
    issues for not. Books, for example, are printed in a fixed type face - as
    are the subtitles on movies, posters, the print on the back of CD cases and
    so on. While it could be argued that you should not use fixed typefaces on
    web pages (the visually impaired could have problems, or those running at
    crazy high resolution), you should target for your market. While the vast
    majority of people have 800x600 or 1024x768 displays, it make sense to
    design layouts that work best on these displays (and size the type faces
    appropriately).

    CSS fixed font sizes is a solution where the designs cannot be as flexible.
    Most commercial sites do this (MTV being a good example - they use a lot of
    CSS).

    Try www.coolhomepages.com for the latest in cutting edge designs... they
    list some good ones.

    xM
    SpaceGirl, Jan 29, 2004
    #6
  7. The Devil's Advocate©

    SpaceGirl Guest

    "Chris Morris" <> wrote in message
    news:...
    > Bernhard Sturm <> writes:
    > > The Devil's Advocate© schrieb:
    > > > Mac displays type slightly larger than a PC which tends to mess up
    > > > html tables and such. What is the common solution for this? I'd like
    > > > to get type to display at the same apparent size on both platforms.

    > >
    > > set your font-size in pixel, then you don't have to worry about
    > > resolution. a pixel is 1 pixel on a monitor, is 1 pixel on a mac, on a
    > > windoze machine, on linux, on mobile phones... ;-)

    >
    > On a video projector displaying on a 6 foot screen at 3000x3000
    > resolution...
    >
    > Just taking a quick straw poll of the machines in this office (14-17"
    > monitors, some flatscreen, some CRT, mostly at 800/600 or 1024/768
    > resolution) the size of a pixel varies by about 40%. With more exotic
    > displays this variance would probably rise considerably.
    >
    > --
    > Chris


    Out in the real world where something like 80% of people are using 800x600
    displays, and the majority of the test are 1024x768. You cant design for
    everything. So you design for the average.

    In our studio we have one machine running 1120 x 960 (19" CRT), one 1280 x
    1024 (21" flat panel) and one machine running 1024 x 768. We always design
    sites for 800 x 600 (or 780 x 550).
    SpaceGirl, Jan 29, 2004
    #7
  8. The Devil's Advocate©

    Chris Morris Guest

    "SpaceGirl" <> writes:
    > > Just taking a quick straw poll of the machines in this office (14-17"
    > > monitors, some flatscreen, some CRT, mostly at 800/600 or 1024/768
    > > resolution) the size of a pixel varies by about 40%. With more exotic
    > > displays this variance would probably rise considerably.

    >
    > Out in the real world where something like 80% of people are using 800x600
    > displays, and the majority of the test are 1024x768. You cant design for
    > everything. So you design for the average.


    You can design for everything, or at least a fairly wide range... See
    elsewhere in this thread for that.

    Anyway, my point was that *within* the common display settings (800 or
    1024 on 14-17") there's already a _huge_ variation in size.

    --
    Chris
    Chris Morris, Jan 29, 2004
    #8
  9. The Devil's Advocate©

    Luna Guest

    In article <6AaSb.28960$9.net>,
    "PeterMcC" <> wrote:

    > Luna <> wrote in
    > <>
    >
    > > In article <>,
    > > The Devil's Advocate? <> wrote:
    > >
    > >> Mac displays type slightly larger than a PC which tends to mess up
    > >> html tables and such. What is the common solution for this? I'd like
    > >> to get type to display at the same apparent size on both platforms.
    > >>
    > >> Also- If you have a second and you know of some websites that have a
    > >> commercial and cutting-edge look mtv.com please post some. Thanks.

    > >
    > > You can use CSS to specify a pixel size for the font, that way it
    > > will be the same on both macs and Pcs.

    >
    > Just because you can doesn't mean you should...
    >
    > See what happens when you x-post to alt.design.graphics :)


    I've heard people refer to pixel sized fonts as "fixed" and, well, I'm not
    an expert, but on my pages where the font size is specified in pixels, on
    IE the "text zoom" function still works fine. So I'm not sure what the
    problem is with defining size in pixels.

    --
    Michelle Levin
    http://www.mindspring.com/~lunachick

    I have only 3 flaws. My first flaw is thinking that I only have 3 flaws.
    Luna, Jan 29, 2004
    #9
  10. Chris Morris schrieb:
    > "SpaceGirl" <> writes:
    >
    >
    > Anyway, my point was that *within* the common display settings (800 or
    > 1024 on 14-17") there's already a _huge_ variation in size.


    but your pixel would still be a pixel ;-)
    which leads to the beauty of fixed font-sizes.

    however, to open another can of worms: you could define your font-size
    in 'em' as recommended by the W3C. I wouldn't, as you will then have to
    create two CSS for Mac/Linux and PC. That's just the other way how to
    solve the font-size problem.
    I would stick with pixels as you have much better control over a fixed
    font size.

    BTW: if you really want to cover the high-res users, you could create
    your two CSS files for low- and high-res browser profiles.

    bernhard
    ---
    www.daszeichen.ch
    remove nixspam to reply
    Bernhard Sturm, Jan 29, 2004
    #10
  11. The Devil's Advocate©

    SpaceGirl Guest

    "Bernhard Sturm" <> wrote in message
    news:...
    >
    >
    > Chris Morris schrieb:
    > > "SpaceGirl" <> writes:
    > >
    > >
    > > Anyway, my point was that *within* the common display settings (800 or
    > > 1024 on 14-17") there's already a _huge_ variation in size.

    >
    > but your pixel would still be a pixel ;-)
    > which leads to the beauty of fixed font-sizes.
    >
    > however, to open another can of worms: you could define your font-size
    > in 'em' as recommended by the W3C. I wouldn't, as you will then have to
    > create two CSS for Mac/Linux and PC. That's just the other way how to
    > solve the font-size problem.
    > I would stick with pixels as you have much better control over a fixed
    > font size.
    >
    > BTW: if you really want to cover the high-res users, you could create
    > your two CSS files for low- and high-res browser profiles.
    >
    > bernhard
    > ---
    > www.daszeichen.ch
    > remove nixspam to reply



    Yep... or more. CSS, being cascading and all, is easy to adapt to lots of
    different things. One of our sites has one core CSS document; if an older
    browser is detected it still loads the core CSS, but it also loads a second
    document which contains just the styles that don't work so well on Netscape.
    This second file takes presidents over the first. It'd be easy to add a
    script that checked the browser max window size and used this to load an
    alternate CSS document in (if it came to that), or you could (as some sites
    already have) allow the user to choose one of several styles for the site
    just by clicking a button. The content of the site never actually changes,
    but the look and feel can be dramatically different. Got to love CSS :)
    SpaceGirl, Jan 29, 2004
    #11
  12. The Devil's Advocate©

    Steve Pugh Guest

    Luna <> wrote:

    >I've heard people refer to pixel sized fonts as "fixed" and, well, I'm not
    >an expert, but on my pages where the font size is specified in pixels, on
    >IE the "text zoom" function still works fine. So I'm not sure what the
    >problem is with defining size in pixels.


    You use a Mac.

    Windows IE is broken and text sized in pixels or points can not be
    resized by the user. Only a user stylesheet or disabling all font
    sizing in the preferences will allow users to over ride such font
    sizes.

    (Text sized in pixels is also not resizable in Netscape 4, but text
    sized in points is.)

    Pity that 80%+ of all web users are using such a broken browser.

    Steve

    --
    "My theories appal you, my heresies outrage you,
    I never answer letters and you don't like my tie." - The Doctor

    Steve Pugh <> <http://steve.pugh.net/>
    Steve Pugh, Jan 29, 2004
    #12
  13. Quoth the raven named SpaceGirl:

    > While the vast majority of people have 800x600 or 1024x768
    > displays, it make sense to design layouts that work best on these
    > displays (and size the type faces appropriately).


    Yikes. Here we go yet again. Forget about monitor *resolution*. What
    makes you think everyone browses with /maximized/ windows? I'm looking
    at my 1024 monitor with a browser window about 750 pixels wide.

    http://www.allmyfaqs.com/faq.pl?AnySizeDesign

    --
    -bts
    -This space intentionally left blank.
    Beauregard T. Shagnasty, Jan 29, 2004
    #13
  14. SpaceGirl schrieb:

    <snip>
    >(if it came to that), or you could (as some sites
    > already have) allow the user to choose one of several styles for the site
    > just by clicking a button. The content of the site never actually changes,
    > but the look and feel can be dramatically different. Got to love CSS :)


    he, he, he... seems that someone has already converted!

    bernhard
    ---
    www.daszeichen.ch
    remove nixspam to reply
    Bernhard Sturm, Jan 29, 2004
    #14
  15. The Devil's Advocate©

    Luna Guest

    In article <>,
    Steve Pugh <> wrote:

    > Luna <> wrote:
    >
    > >I've heard people refer to pixel sized fonts as "fixed" and, well, I'm not
    > >an expert, but on my pages where the font size is specified in pixels, on
    > >IE the "text zoom" function still works fine. So I'm not sure what the
    > >problem is with defining size in pixels.

    >
    > You use a Mac.
    >
    > Windows IE is broken and text sized in pixels or points can not be
    > resized by the user. Only a user stylesheet or disabling all font
    > sizing in the preferences will allow users to over ride such font
    > sizes.
    >
    > (Text sized in pixels is also not resizable in Netscape 4, but text
    > sized in points is.)
    >
    > Pity that 80%+ of all web users are using such a broken browser.
    >
    > Steve


    Ah, that's strange. Since most people have PC's as opposed to Macs, if
    there's a problem with the way IE works I would have guessed it would be
    the other way around. Like Microsoft's priority would be to make software
    work well on PC's rather than Macs.

    --
    Michelle Levin
    http://www.mindspring.com/~lunachick

    I have only 3 flaws. My first flaw is thinking that I only have 3 flaws.
    Luna, Jan 29, 2004
    #15
  16. The Devil's Advocate©

    SpaceGirl Guest

    "Bernhard Sturm" <> wrote in message
    news:...
    >
    >
    > SpaceGirl schrieb:
    >
    > <snip>
    > >(if it came to that), or you could (as some sites
    > > already have) allow the user to choose one of several styles for the

    site
    > > just by clicking a button. The content of the site never actually

    changes,
    > > but the look and feel can be dramatically different. Got to love CSS :)

    >
    > he, he, he... seems that someone has already converted!



    I was a long time ago. look at my sites... they use a LOT of css.

    It's XHTML I'm learning now :)
    SpaceGirl, Jan 29, 2004
    #16
  17. Quoth the raven named Luna:

    > In article <6AaSb.28960$9.net>, "PeterMcC"
    > <> wrote:
    >> See what happens when you x-post to alt.design.graphics :)


    Apparently so.

    > I've heard people refer to pixel sized fonts as "fixed" and, well,
    > I'm not an expert, but on my pages where the font size is specified
    > in pixels, on IE the "text zoom" function still works fine.


    Not in my experience. Are you referencing the site at:
    http://www.mindspring.com/~lunachick/

    IE's View > Text Size does nothing.

    > So I'm
    > not sure what the problem is with defining size in pixels.


    Probably ~85% of your visitors will use Internet Exploder. You've
    handicapped them all, especially those with visual handicaps.

    --
    -bts
    -This space intentionally left blank.
    Beauregard T. Shagnasty, Jan 29, 2004
    #17
  18. The Devil's Advocate©

    SpaceGirl Guest

    "Beauregard T. Shagnasty" <> wrote in message
    news:zjbSb.2751$%...
    > Quoth the raven named SpaceGirl:
    >
    > > While the vast majority of people have 800x600 or 1024x768
    > > displays, it make sense to design layouts that work best on these
    > > displays (and size the type faces appropriately).

    >
    > Yikes. Here we go yet again. Forget about monitor *resolution*. What
    > makes you think everyone browses with /maximized/ windows? I'm looking
    > at my 1024 monitor with a browser window about 750 pixels wide.
    >
    > http://www.allmyfaqs.com/faq.pl?AnySizeDesign
    >
    > --
    > -bts
    > -This space intentionally left blank.


    Uh huh, I know. People also know how to make their browsers bigger if they
    need to. That's not a big deal when the vast majority of (commercial)
    existing web sites are also designed for 800 x 600 (meaning 750 x 500-ish
    usuable pixels).

    Soon as we get away from pixel based design the better. Windows 6 uses a
    scaled desktop ("avalon"), with a device independant measurement system.
    Office 2003 is an example of this... it can be scaled up and down just as if
    you were zooming in and out of an image in PhotoShop. Unfortunatly we have
    to wait a while yet for this to be usable.
    SpaceGirl, Jan 29, 2004
    #18
  19. The Devil's Advocate©

    Luna Guest

    In article <4CbSb.625$>,
    "Beauregard T. Shagnasty" <> wrote:

    > Quoth the raven named Luna:
    >
    > > In article <6AaSb.28960$9.net>, "PeterMcC"
    > > <> wrote:
    > >> See what happens when you x-post to alt.design.graphics :)

    >
    > Apparently so.
    >
    > > I've heard people refer to pixel sized fonts as "fixed" and, well,
    > > I'm not an expert, but on my pages where the font size is specified
    > > in pixels, on IE the "text zoom" function still works fine.

    >
    > Not in my experience. Are you referencing the site at:
    > http://www.mindspring.com/~lunachick/
    >
    > IE's View > Text Size does nothing.
    >
    > > So I'm
    > > not sure what the problem is with defining size in pixels.

    >
    > Probably ~85% of your visitors will use Internet Exploder. You've
    > handicapped them all, especially those with visual handicaps.


    It's been explained that it works for me because I'm on a Mac. I've also
    handicapped my users by using Flash on the main page, since not everyone
    uses Flash, and by my color choices, since not everyone likes those colors,
    and by using graphics, since some people use text-only browsers. Every
    choice made in designing a site will alienate some users. If this makes me
    an uncaring bitch, so be it, but it's more important to me to have my font
    the size I want it than to make it usable for visually impaired people.
    Nothing on there is important, it's a vanity site.

    --
    Michelle Levin
    http://www.mindspring.com/~lunachick

    I have only 3 flaws. My first flaw is thinking that I only have 3 flaws.
    Luna, Jan 29, 2004
    #19
  20. SpaceGirl schrieb:
    >
    > I was a long time ago. look at my sites... they use a LOT of css.
    >
    > It's XHTML I'm learning now :)


    you're a *!


    bernhard
    ---
    www.daszeichen.ch
    remove nixspam to reply
    Bernhard Sturm, Jan 29, 2004
    #20
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