Use of <h1> tag more than once?

Discussion in 'HTML' started by Bob, Oct 11, 2004.

  1. Bob

    Bob Guest

    Hello Everyone,

    I am making use of two <h1> tags. One is for a banner at the top of the page
    and the other is for the topic title in the text part of the page. Both uses
    are for primary keywords. You can see this use at www.usernomics.com .

    How do you think this will affect the search engines weighting of the <h1>'s
    in terms of SERPS?

    Thanks a lot,

    Bob
     
    Bob, Oct 11, 2004
    #1
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  2. Bob

    brucie Guest

    In alt.html Bob said:

    > Hello Everyone,


    kissy

    > I am making use of two <h1> tags.


    two headings of equal weight, fair enough although some argue that a
    document should only have one <h1>

    > How do you think this will affect the search engines weighting of the <h1>'s
    > in terms of SERPS?


    this is where we have a clash of ideologies. i design sites for the
    visitor, i don't give a shit what a computer program may or may not
    think of the site.

    i'm sure i've just upset a lot of computer programs but when they have
    money to spend i'll start designing sites for them as well. until that
    happens i'll just worry about keeping humans happy.

    --


    v o i c e s
     
    brucie, Oct 11, 2004
    #2
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  3. Bob

    Bob Guest

    "brucie" <> wrote in message
    news:...
    > In alt.html Bob said:
    >
    > > Hello Everyone,

    >
    > kissy
    >
    > > I am making use of two <h1> tags.

    >
    > two headings of equal weight, fair enough although some argue that a
    > document should only have one <h1>
    >
    > > How do you think this will affect the search engines weighting of the

    <h1>'s
    > > in terms of SERPS?

    >
    > this is where we have a clash of ideologies. i design sites for the
    > visitor, i don't give a shit what a computer program may or may not
    > think of the site.
    >
    > i'm sure i've just upset a lot of computer programs but when they have
    > money to spend i'll start designing sites for them as well. until that
    > happens i'll just worry about keeping humans happy.
    >
    > --
    >
    >
    > v o i c e s


    Hi Bruce,

    I agree with designing for humans as the number one priority. The pages were
    designed with that in mind.

    My second priority is position in the search engines for a few keywords.

    After developing a new CSS, I had a choice of tagging two exixting lines
    with keywords already there. I could make it <h1> and <h2> as it was before
    or I could make them both <h1>'s using a different class in the stylesheet.

    So my current question is if it is beneficial for the search engines to use
    two <h1> tags for those existing key phrases?

    Bob
     
    Bob, Oct 11, 2004
    #3
  4. Bob

    brucie Guest

    In alt.html Bob said:

    > So my current question is if it is beneficial for the search engines to use
    > two <h1> tags for those existing key phrases?


    this is a question for alt.internet.search-engines i don't know why bill
    sent you over here.

    personally i have never come across a situation where my document needed
    to be marked up with two <h1>s and it makes me feel a bit icky just
    thinking about it. its an unnatural act and god will smite me down.

    i have no idea what a search engine would think about two <h1>s and as
    indicated in my previous post i don't care.

    if you want my guess i would score two <h1>s as suspicious.

    --


    v o i c e s
     
    brucie, Oct 11, 2004
    #4
  5. Bob

    Bob Guest

    "brucie" <> wrote in message
    news:1c7wwddah8ubm$...
    > In alt.html Bob said:
    >
    > > So my current question is if it is beneficial for the search engines to

    use
    > > two <h1> tags for those existing key phrases?

    >
    > this is a question for alt.internet.search-engines i don't know why bill
    > sent you over here.
    >
    > personally i have never come across a situation where my document needed
    > to be marked up with two <h1>s and it makes me feel a bit icky just
    > thinking about it. its an unnatural act and god will smite me down.
    >
    > i have no idea what a search engine would think about two <h1>s and as
    > indicated in my previous post i don't care.
    >
    > if you want my guess i would score two <h1>s as suspicious.
    >
    > --
    >
    >
    > v o i c e s


    Thanks Bruce. I did ask the question at the search engine group. Someone
    told me to ask it here and "put on my flack jacket." Guess I will change it
    back to <h2>. Nobody seems to know the answer. I thought I might be able to
    get an extra hit with it appearing twice.

    Thanks for the heads-up.

    Bob
     
    Bob, Oct 11, 2004
    #5
  6. Bob

    brucie Guest

    In alt.html Bob said:

    > Thanks Bruce.


    aaaaaahhhhhhhhhhhaaaaaaaaaaaaa!every $&%ing time!
    http://moreshit.usenetshit.info/brucie-birth.jpg [14k]

    > Someone told me to ask it here and "put on my flack jacket.


    thats bill, hes a sensitive little fellow, easily startled.

    > Guess I will change it back to <h2>.


    why don't you just see what happens?

    --


    v o i c e s
     
    brucie, Oct 11, 2004
    #6
  7. Bob wrote:
    > Hello Everyone,
    >
    > I am making use of two <h1> tags. One is for a banner at the top of the page
    > and the other is for the topic title in the text part of the page. Both uses
    > are for primary keywords. You can see this use at www.usernomics.com .
    >
    > How do you think this will affect the search engines weighting of the <h1>'s
    > in terms of SERPS?
    >
    > Thanks a lot,
    >
    > Bob
    >
    >


    For an advanced search engine, the name of tag will not matter, but
    only relative appearance of its content in the page. After all, you
    can easily write things like <h1
    style="color:white;background-color:white">. The second H1, since it
    is the largest text (and has highest contrast) in the page, will
    automatically get the higher precedence. What are SERPS?
     
    Shailesh Humbad, Oct 11, 2004
    #7
  8. Bob

    Mark Parnell Guest

    On Mon, 11 Oct 2004 03:15:38 GMT, Shailesh Humbad <>
    declared in alt.html:

    > For an advanced search engine, the name of tag will not matter, but
    > only relative appearance of its content in the page. After all, you
    > can easily write things like <h1
    > style="color:white;background-color:white">. The second H1, since it
    > is the largest text (and has highest contrast) in the page, will
    > automatically get the higher precedence.


    Do you have any data to back this up?

    > What are SERPS?


    Search Engine Results Pages. The fact that you need to ask doesn't lend
    much credibility to the first part of your post.

    --
    Mark Parnell
    http://www.clarkecomputers.com.au
    "Never drink rum&coke whilst reading usenet" - rf 2004
     
    Mark Parnell, Oct 11, 2004
    #8
  9. Bob

    Bob Guest

    "Mark Parnell" <> wrote in message
    news:5jv6j9bl1ct0$...
    > On Mon, 11 Oct 2004 03:15:38 GMT, Shailesh Humbad <>
    > declared in alt.html:
    >
    > > For an advanced search engine, the name of tag will not matter, but
    > > only relative appearance of its content in the page. After all, you
    > > can easily write things like <h1
    > > style="color:white;background-color:white">. The second H1, since it
    > > is the largest text (and has highest contrast) in the page, will
    > > automatically get the higher precedence.

    >
    > Do you have any data to back this up?
    >
    > > What are SERPS?

    >
    > Search Engine Results Pages. The fact that you need to ask doesn't lend
    > much credibility to the first part of your post.
    >
    > --
    > Mark Parnell
    > http://www.clarkecomputers.com.au
    > "Never drink rum&coke whilst reading usenet" - rf 2004


    Yes, that's what I meant by SERPS.

    I have one use in a banner containing keywords defined as div
    id="banner1"><h1>keywords</h1>.

    But later in the text I have <h1 class = "head">keywords</h1>.

    So the question is if the search engines will like this or not? I think I
    may be pushing it a bit and should make the second one <h2>. The way I
    defined them in CSS makes the size and other attributes the way I want them.

    Bob
     
    Bob, Oct 11, 2004
    #9
  10. Bob

    Bob Guest

    "brucie" <> wrote in message
    news:3m64q7l3xvnj$...
    > In alt.html Bob said:
    >
    > > Thanks Bruce.

    >
    > aaaaaahhhhhhhhhhhaaaaaaaaaaaaa!every $&%ing time!
    > http://moreshit.usenetshit.info/brucie-birth.jpg [14k]
    >
    > > Someone told me to ask it here and "put on my flack jacket.

    >
    > thats bill, hes a sensitive little fellow, easily startled.
    >
    > > Guess I will change it back to <h2>.

    >
    > why don't you just see what happens?
    >
    > --
    >
    >
    > v o i c e s


    I am afraid to take a chance because I am already doing well with the search
    engines. I am just trying to do even better. So I don't want to mess up my
    rankings.

    Bob
     
    Bob, Oct 11, 2004
    #10
  11. Bob

    brucie Guest

    In alt.html Bob said:

    > <div id="banner1">


    'banner' is an icky poo word things like firewalls and filters look for
    when blocking ads. you're risking the style for that <div> or possibly
    the entire <div> being blocked.

    --


    v o i c e s
     
    brucie, Oct 11, 2004
    #11
  12. Bob

    Toby Inkster Guest

    Bob wrote:

    > How do you think this will affect the search engines weighting of the <h1>'s
    > in terms of SERPS?


    At this point in time, most search engines don't treat headings any
    differently from paragraphs or <div>s. Put your banner in the most
    semantically correct container -- probably a <div>.

    --
    Toby A Inkster BSc (Hons) ARCS
    Contact Me ~ http://tobyinkster.co.uk/contact
     
    Toby Inkster, Oct 11, 2004
    #12
  13. Mark Parnell wrote:

    > On Mon, 11 Oct 2004 03:15:38 GMT, Shailesh Humbad <>
    > declared in alt.html:
    >
    >
    >>For an advanced search engine, the name of tag will not matter, but
    >>only relative appearance of its content in the page. After all, you
    >>can easily write things like <h1
    >>style="color:white;background-color:white">. The second H1, since it
    >>is the largest text (and has highest contrast) in the page, will
    >>automatically get the higher precedence.

    >
    >
    > Do you have any data to back this up?
    >

    No data, but it can be inferred easily. By contradiction, suppose the
    search engine didn't pay attention strictly to rendering, then we
    could trick the engine by placing keywords in 'important' tags like h1
    and hiding them. Since (major) search engines are smart enough to
    ignore disguised tags, we can conclude that search engine's do pay
    attention strictly to rendering, and not the tag names.

    >
    >>What are SERPS?

    >
    >
    > Search Engine Results Pages. The fact that you need to ask doesn't lend
    > much credibility to the first part of your post.
    >


    OALTMC

    "Overuse of acronyms leads to mental calcification."
     
    Shailesh Humbad, Oct 11, 2004
    #13
  14. Bob

    Spartanicus Guest

    "Bob" <ergobob@sonic[no spam].net> wrote:

    >I have one use in a banner containing keywords defined as div
    >id="banner1"><h1>keywords</h1>.
    >
    >But later in the text I have <h1 class = "head">keywords</h1>.
    >
    >So the question is if the search engines will like this or not? I think I
    >may be pushing it a bit and should make the second one <h2>.


    Equally incorrect, don't repeat content (keywords) in the hope of
    boosting SE ranking.

    An unlikely but possible valid reason to use for example two h1's is a
    page with two topics on it that are 100% unrelated. Note that it's very
    hard to defend a decision not to split the two topics up over two pages.

    --
    Spartanicus
     
    Spartanicus, Oct 11, 2004
    #14
  15. "Bob" <ergobob@sonic[no spam].net> wrote:

    > I am making use of two <h1> tags.


    Does your document have two first-level headings, i.e. texts that stand
    as headings for the entire page?

    > One is for a banner at the top of
    > the page and the other is for the topic title in the text part of the
    > page.


    Apparently you don't have two first-level headings. A "banner" is
    probably something used throughout the site, so it isn't a heading for
    this page. It's probably something logo-like, or like a stamp you put
    over all pages; there's no specific markup for such things, so just
    use <div>, optionally with style.

    > How do you think this will affect the search engines weighting of the
    > <h1>'s in terms of SERPS?


    You have already made your guess, haven't you?

    You are trying to fool search engines into treating something as more
    important by wrapping it inside h1 markup. Well, search engines tend to
    be clever, and get more clever, so at the end, _you_ will be fooled.

    In fact, you probably already are. Making something <h1> probably
    increases just its _relative_ weight inside a page in search engine
    processing. So instead of letting the specific content of each page
    bubble up naturally, you confuse the process with incorrect markup.

    Two h1 elements could make sense in a bilingual document for example, but
    this is a rare exception.

    Normally when a page has more than one h1 element, none of them is
    appropriate.

    <h1><a href="workplace-ergonomics.html" title="Ergonomics">ERGONOMICS</a>
    - <a href="human-factors.html" title="Human Factors">HUMAN FACTORS</a> -
    <a href="user-interface-design.html" title="User Interface Design">USER
    INTERFACE DESIGN</a> - <a href="user-interface-design.html"
    title="Usability Testing">USABILITY TESTING</a></h1>

    <h1 class = "head">Welcome to Usernomics - The Usability Company</h1>

    Need I say more? A usability company reducing the usability of their main
    page in an attempt to mislead search engines. With navigation bar
    inserted into a heading, with SHOUTING. And asking the public to help
    in misleading search engines more, i.e. to do more tricks to get
    competitive benefits over their competitors with dishonest means.
    If I wanted to help in such matters, I'd at least expect to get paid.

    --
    Yucca, http://www.cs.tut.fi/~jkorpela/
    Pages about Web authoring: http://www.cs.tut.fi/~jkorpela/www.html
     
    Jukka K. Korpela, Oct 11, 2004
    #15
  16. While the city slept, brucie () feverishly typed...

    > In alt.html Bob said:
    >
    >> Thanks Bruce.

    >
    > aaaaaahhhhhhhhhhhaaaaaaaaaaaaa!every $&%ing time!
    > http://moreshit.usenetshit.info/brucie-birth.jpg [14k]


    LOL! Nice one Mr Blackford (it seems strange now knowing you have a
    surname... you've always been just "Brucie" to us!)

    Cheers,
    Nige

    --
    Nigel Moss
    http://www.nigenet.org.uk
    Mail address not valid. , take the DOG. out!
    In the land of the blind, the one-eyed man is very, very busy!
     
    nice.guy.nige, Oct 11, 2004
    #16
  17. While the city slept, Mark Parnell ()
    feverishly typed...

    > On Mon, 11 Oct 2004 03:15:38 GMT, Shailesh Humbad
    > <> declared in alt.html:
    >> What are SERPS?

    >
    > Search Engine Results Pages.


    Really? It's State Earnings Related Pension Scheme where I come from.

    > The fact that you need to ask doesn't
    > lend much credibility to the first part of your post.


    Ooh! Mark knows more acronyms than us! ;-)

    Cheers,
    Nige

    --
    Nigel Moss
    http://www.nigenet.org.uk
    Mail address not valid. , take the DOG. out!
    In the land of the blind, the one-eyed man is very, very busy!
     
    nice.guy.nige, Oct 11, 2004
    #17
  18. Bob

    brucie Guest

    In alt.html nice.guy.nige said:

    >>> Thanks Bruce.


    >> aaaaaahhhhhhhhhhhaaaaaaaaaaaaa!every $&%ing time!
    >> http://moreshit.usenetshit.info/brucie-birth.jpg [14k]


    > LOL!


    its not funny! i am soooo sick of people getting my name wrong. i
    reminded a person i was talking to the other day *5* times my name was
    brucie not bruce.

    <twitch/>

    i cant remember the last time someone got my name right. i think it was
    back in early may because i remember being shocked that they got it
    right.

    its really getting on my nerves!

    <dribble/>

    > Nice one Mr Blackford (it seems strange now knowing you have a
    > surname...


    i'm not even going to mention being called
    mr. black-something-other-than-^$%#ing-ford

    > you've always been just "Brucie" to us!)


    i'll always be just brucie to you. kissy kissy


    --


    v o i c e s
     
    brucie, Oct 11, 2004
    #18
  19. Bob

    rf Guest

    brucie wrote:

    > <twitch/>
    >
    > i cant remember the last time someone got my name right. i think it was


    <sniff/> when *i* last addressed you by name. i *always* get your name right
    brucie. even to your broken shift key [1] :-(

    [1] Intriguingly, aside from the usual rf and Richard I, the other day, got
    RICHARD. I don't even think the poster was angry with me. Go figure...

    --
    Cheers
    Richard.
     
    rf, Oct 11, 2004
    #19
  20. Bob

    brucie Guest

    In alt.html rf said:

    >> <twitch/>
    >> i cant remember the last time someone got my name right. i think it was


    > <sniff/> when *i* last addressed you by name. i *always* get your name right
    > brucie. even to your broken shift key [1] :-(


    sorry rf, i know you do. i was primarily referring to <shudder>real
    life</shudder> instances.

    > [1] Intriguingly, aside from the usual rf and Richard I, the other day, got
    > RICHARD. I don't even think the poster was angry with me. Go figure...


    sounds european, very exotic.

    --


    v o i c e s
     
    brucie, Oct 11, 2004
    #20
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