Use of the Symbol font not recognized by Mozilla ..???

Discussion in 'HTML' started by joesplink, Feb 19, 2008.

  1. joesplink

    joesplink Guest

    I wanted to use some greek letters on my web page, and discovered that
    using the Symbol font would do the trick as far as MS Word, and MS
    Explorer are concerned.

    However, I now see that Mozilla Firefox does not recognize this font
    and the correct characters are not displayed.

    Note: all the testing is done on my computer, so I know the font is on
    the computer somewhere.

    What is the remedy?

    Thanks,

    Will
    www.berkeleyscience.com
    joesplink, Feb 19, 2008
    #1
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  2. ..oO(joesplink)

    >I wanted to use some greek letters on my web page, and discovered that
    >using the Symbol font would do the trick as far as MS Word, and MS
    >Explorer are concerned.


    You don't need any special font.

    >However, I now see that Mozilla Firefox does not recognize this font
    >and the correct characters are not displayed.


    Can you post a URL to a test case? Modern browsers are able to display
    almost any char. Test for yourself:

    http://www.unics.uni-hannover.de/nhtcapri/multilingual1.html

    Micha
    Michael Fesser, Feb 19, 2008
    #2
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  3. joesplink

    joesplink Guest

    On Feb 19, 9:46 am, Michael Fesser <> wrote:
    > .oO(joesplink)
    >
    > >I wanted to use some greek letters on my web page, and discovered that
    > >using the Symbol font would do the trick as far as MS Word, and MS
    > >Explorer are concerned.

    >
    > You don't need any special font.
    >
    > >However, I now see that Mozilla Firefox does not recognize this font
    > >and the correct characters are not displayed.

    >
    > Can you post a URL to a test case? Modern browsers are able to display
    > almost any char. Test for yourself:
    >
    > http://www.unics.uni-hannover.de/nhtcapri/multilingual1.html
    >
    > Micha


    You're right ... the page you linked displays fine on my Mozilla
    browser..... so ... there is a solution !


    Here is a page that uses the Symbol font for Greek letters that
    doesn't display correctly ...

    http://www.berkeleyscience.com/relativity.htm

    Here is a formula that is supposed to contain Greek letters, as it
    displays on my Mozilla browser

    T = L/(c + v) + L/(c - v) = 2cL/(c2 - v2) = 2L/c(1 - v2/c2) = 2L/c g2

    (the g is a Symbol font character ... but it's displaying as just a g)

    Thanks ... !
    joesplink, Feb 19, 2008
    #3
  4. joesplink

    richard Guest

    On Tue, 19 Feb 2008 09:56:24 -0800 (PST), joesplink
    <> wrote:

    >On Feb 19, 9:46 am, Michael Fesser <> wrote:
    >> .oO(joesplink)
    >>
    >> >I wanted to use some greek letters on my web page, and discovered that
    >> >using the Symbol font would do the trick as far as MS Word, and MS
    >> >Explorer are concerned.

    >>
    >> You don't need any special font.
    >>
    >> >However, I now see that Mozilla Firefox does not recognize this font
    >> >and the correct characters are not displayed.

    >>
    >> Can you post a URL to a test case? Modern browsers are able to display
    >> almost any char. Test for yourself:
    >>
    >> http://www.unics.uni-hannover.de/nhtcapri/multilingual1.html
    >>
    >> Micha

    >
    >You're right ... the page you linked displays fine on my Mozilla
    >browser..... so ... there is a solution !
    >
    >
    >Here is a page that uses the Symbol font for Greek letters that
    >doesn't display correctly ...
    >
    >http://www.berkeleyscience.com/relativity.htm
    >
    >Here is a formula that is supposed to contain Greek letters, as it
    >displays on my Mozilla browser
    >
    >T = L/(c + v) + L/(c - v) = 2cL/(c2 - v2) = 2L/c(1 - v2/c2) = 2L/c g2
    >
    >(the g is a Symbol font character ... but it's displaying as just a g)
    >
    >Thanks ... !


    In that case, you could probably use the equivelant "&#" assignment.
    As well as the "&name" like in "&iota".

    http://htmlhelp.com/reference/html40/entities/symbols.html
    richard, Feb 19, 2008
    #4
  5. joesplink

    joesplink Guest

    On Feb 19, 10:06 am, richard <> wrote:
    > On Tue, 19 Feb 2008 09:56:24 -0800 (PST), joesplink
    >
    >
    >
    > <> wrote:
    > >On Feb 19, 9:46 am, Michael Fesser <> wrote:
    > >> .oO(joesplink)

    >
    > >> >I wanted to use some greek letters on my web page, and discovered that
    > >> >using the Symbol font would do the trick as far as MS Word, and MS
    > >> >Explorer are concerned.

    >
    > >> You don't need any special font.

    >
    > >> >However, I now see that Mozilla Firefox does not recognize this font
    > >> >and the correct characters are not displayed.

    >
    > >> Can you post a URL to a test case? Modern browsers are able to display
    > >> almost any char. Test for yourself:

    >
    > >>http://www.unics.uni-hannover.de/nhtcapri/multilingual1.html

    >
    > >> Micha

    >
    > >You're right ... the page you linked displays fine on my Mozilla
    > >browser..... so ... there is a solution !

    >
    > >Here is a page that uses the Symbol font for Greek letters that
    > >doesn't display correctly ...

    >
    > >http://www.berkeleyscience.com/relativity.htm

    >
    > >Here is a formula that is supposed to contain Greek letters, as it
    > >displays on my Mozilla browser

    >
    > >T = L/(c + v) + L/(c - v) = 2cL/(c2 - v2) = 2L/c(1 - v2/c2) = 2L/c g2

    >
    > >(the g is a Symbol font character ... but it's displaying as just a g)

    >
    > >Thanks ... !

    >
    > In that case, you could probably use the equivelant "&#" assignment.
    > As well as the "&name" like in "&iota".
    >
    > http://htmlhelp.com/reference/html40/entities/symbols.html


    Yep, that'll do it. Thanks.
    joesplink, Feb 19, 2008
    #5
  6. ..oO(richard)

    >In that case, you could probably use the equivelant "&#" assignment.
    >As well as the "&name" like in "&iota".


    With a proper encoding like UTF-8 such character references are not
    needed anymore.

    Micha
    Michael Fesser, Feb 19, 2008
    #6
  7. ..oO(joesplink)

    >Here is a page that uses the Symbol font for Greek letters that
    >doesn't display correctly ...
    >
    >http://www.berkeleyscience.com/relativity.htm
    >
    >Here is a formula that is supposed to contain Greek letters, as it
    >displays on my Mozilla browser
    >
    >T = L/(c + v) + L/(c - v) = 2cL/(c2 - v2) = 2L/c(1 - v2/c2) = 2L/c g2
    >
    >(the g is a Symbol font character ... but it's displaying as just a g)


    It's shown as a 'g' because in fact it is a 'g', given its code point
    0x67. Using another font with other glyphs to display it as something
    else doesn't change the character itself.

    Consider to use UTF-8 encoding instead of Windows-1252 and write those
    chars literarily as what they really are, then you won't have any
    problems. Almost every browser supports UTF-8.

    Micha
    Michael Fesser, Feb 19, 2008
    #7
  8. joesplink

    Andy Dingley Guest

    On 19 Feb, 17:27, joesplink <> wrote:
    > I wanted to use some greek letters on my web page,


    Then use them.

    As they're hard to type on a qwerty keyboard, it's not easy to embed
    them as characters. This would also require you to get the encodings
    right.

    A simpler solution, that's more readable than using numeric character
    entities is to use HTML's pre-defined set of character entity
    references. The canonical list of these is here:
    <http://www.w3.org/TR/html4/sgml/entities.html#h-24.3>
    e.g. <!ENTITY Epsilon CDATA "Ε" -- greek capital letter
    epsilon, U+0395 -->

    So use &Epsilon; or &epsilon; (upper and lower case) rather than
    Ε

    Easy to type, probably clearer to read (to many English speakers) than
    the characters themselves, and robust against the usual problems of
    getting your encodings right.

    Certainly DO NOT use MS Symbol to try and represent these characters.
    The shape of the glyphs is right, but Symbol works by taking the
    English-Latin "B" character and mis-representing it as looking like a
    Greek Beta. That's just typographic transvestism. Don't do it on the
    web.

    If you need characters beyond this (set logic etc.), use Unicode and a
    UTF-8 encoding. Then either enter the characters directly, or use the
    appropriate numeric entities.


    Most desktop web browser fonts should support Greek characters, or
    else the browser will fallback to something that does. Don't try to
    set anything peculiar, just let "serif" or "sans-serif" stand and let
    the client work out the rest.
    Andy Dingley, Feb 19, 2008
    #8
  9. joesplink

    joesplink Guest

    On Feb 19, 10:31 am, Michael Fesser <> wrote:
    > .oO(joesplink)
    >
    > >Here is a page that uses the Symbol font for Greek letters that
    > >doesn't display correctly ...

    >
    > >http://www.berkeleyscience.com/relativity.htm

    >
    > >Here is a formula that is supposed to contain Greek letters, as it
    > >displays on my Mozilla browser

    >
    > >T = L/(c + v) + L/(c - v) = 2cL/(c2 - v2) = 2L/c(1 - v2/c2) = 2L/c g2

    >
    > >(the g is a Symbol font character ... but it's displaying as just a g)

    >
    > It's shown as a 'g' because in fact it is a 'g', given its code point
    > 0x67. Using another font with other glyphs to display it as something
    > else doesn't change the character itself.
    >
    > Consider to use UTF-8 encoding instead of Windows-1252 and write those
    > chars literarily as what they really are, then you won't have any
    > problems. Almost every browser supports UTF-8.
    >
    > Micha


    I'll probably go with the quick fix.

    But, suppose I did want to switch to UTF-8, wouldn't I need a UTF-8
    editor to edit my htm page? (I currently use notepad) Where to find
    such an editor?
    joesplink, Feb 19, 2008
    #9
  10. joesplink

    tech578 Guest

    On Feb 19, 1:46 pm, joesplink <> wrote:
    > On Feb 19, 10:31 am, Michael Fesser <> wrote:
    >
    >
    >
    > > .oO(joesplink)

    >
    > > >Here is a page that uses the Symbol font for Greek letters that
    > > >doesn't display correctly ...

    >
    > > >http://www.berkeleyscience.com/relativity.htm

    >
    > > >Here is a formula that is supposed to contain Greek letters, as it
    > > >displays on my Mozilla browser

    >
    > > >T = L/(c + v) + L/(c - v) = 2cL/(c2 - v2) = 2L/c(1 - v2/c2) = 2L/c g2

    >
    > > >(the g is a Symbol font character ... but it's displaying as just a g)

    >
    > > It's shown as a 'g' because in fact it is a 'g', given its code point
    > > 0x67. Using another font with other glyphs to display it as something
    > > else doesn't change the character itself.

    >
    > > Consider to use UTF-8 encoding instead of Windows-1252 and write those
    > > chars literarily as what they really are, then you won't have any
    > > problems. Almost every browser supports UTF-8.

    >
    > > Micha

    >
    > I'll probably go with the quick fix.
    >
    > But, suppose I did want to switch to UTF-8, wouldn't I need a UTF-8
    > editor to edit my htm page? (I currently use notepad) Where to find
    > such an editor?


    Notepad recognizes utf-8.
    tech578, Feb 19, 2008
    #10
  11. joesplink wrote:
    > On Feb 19, 10:31 am, Michael Fesser <> wrote:
    >> .oO(joesplink)
    >>
    >>> Here is a page that uses the Symbol font for Greek letters that
    >>> doesn't display correctly ...
    >>> http://www.berkeleyscience.com/relativity.htm
    >>> Here is a formula that is supposed to contain Greek letters, as it
    >>> displays on my Mozilla browser
    >>> T = L/(c + v) + L/(c - v) = 2cL/(c2 - v2) = 2L/c(1 - v2/c2) = 2L/c g2
    >>> (the g is a Symbol font character ... but it's displaying as just a g)

    >> It's shown as a 'g' because in fact it is a 'g', given its code point
    >> 0x67. Using another font with other glyphs to display it as something
    >> else doesn't change the character itself.
    >>
    >> Consider to use UTF-8 encoding instead of Windows-1252 and write those
    >> chars literarily as what they really are, then you won't have any
    >> problems. Almost every browser supports UTF-8.
    >>
    >> Micha

    >
    > I'll probably go with the quick fix.
    >
    > But, suppose I did want to switch to UTF-8, wouldn't I need a UTF-8
    > editor to edit my htm page? (I currently use notepad) Where to find
    > such an editor?


    If you use the for characters > 127 then a pure ASCII editor
    will suffice.
    Harlan Messinger, Feb 19, 2008
    #11
  12. ..oO(joesplink)

    >But, suppose I did want to switch to UTF-8, wouldn't I need a UTF-8
    >editor to edit my htm page? (I currently use notepad) Where to find
    >such an editor?


    Notepad can handle it. There are also many more powerful alternatives,
    though. Before I came to the Eclipse IDE for example, my favourite
    editor was jEdit. It took some time to get used to it, but it was worth
    every single second. The features were just great.

    Micha
    Michael Fesser, Feb 19, 2008
    #12
  13. Scripsit Andy Dingley:

    > On 19 Feb, 17:27, joesplink <> wrote:
    >> I wanted to use some greek letters on my web page,

    >
    > Then use them.


    Yes, Greek is fun! But beware: not everything that looks like a Greek
    letter is a Greek letter. For example, epsilon and delta as used in
    calculus are Greek letters, but the n-ary summation symbol, though
    historically based on capital sigma and looking much like it, is not a
    Greek letter, or a letter at all, but a separate character, with a code
    position of its own.

    > As they're hard to type on a qwerty keyboard, it's not easy to embed
    > them as characters.


    Actually, it's relatively easy to type them. Install a Greek keyboard
    layout, and the A key will produce alpha, the B key will produce beta,
    etc., with some correspondences that aren't that intuitive but
    learnable. On Windows, you can by default switch between different
    keyboard layouts using Alt+Shift.

    > This would also require you to get the encodings right.


    Surely. You would need to save the file in an appropriate encoding, like
    utf-8, _and_ to make sure that the server sends a correct Content-Type
    header.

    > A simpler solution, that's more readable than using numeric character
    > entities is to use HTML's pre-defined set of character entity
    > references.


    That's certainly a simple approach and requires just a little care - the
    names must be spelled correctly

    > Certainly DO NOT use MS Symbol to try and represent these characters.


    Such tricks used to be popular in some circles, often advertized against
    expert advice, and now they are firing back.

    A construct like <font face="Symbol">a</font> means just the Latin
    letter "a", with a suggestion to use the Symbol font, and since Symbol
    contains no such character, the suggestion shall be ignored and another
    font be used instead.

    > The shape of the glyphs is right, but Symbol works by taking the
    > English-Latin "B" character and mis-representing it as looking like a
    > Greek Beta.


    (Well, for "B", you might not notice the difference. In all fonts that
    contain the Latin B and the Greek capital beta, the glyphs are
    identical. They're still by definition distinct characters. And you
    might see a difference caused by font difference, just as Arial B looks
    different from Times B.)

    Early browsers tended to get this wrong, but even such browsers actually
    display <font face="Symbol">a</font> as "a" when configured to ignore
    font settings on web pages or to apply a user style sheet that enforces
    a particular font.

    > That's just typographic transvestism. Don't do it on the web.


    Or elsewhere. The Symbol font is best left unused. The glyphs in it
    don't really match the glyphs of other fonts you're using, and commonly
    available fonts contain much better presentation for Greek letters, for
    example.

    --
    Jukka K. Korpela ("Yucca")
    http://www.cs.tut.fi/~jkorpela/
    Jukka K. Korpela, Feb 19, 2008
    #13
  14. joesplink

    joesplink Guest

    On Feb 19, 9:27 am, joesplink <> wrote:
    > I wanted to use some greek letters on my web page, and discovered that
    > using the Symbol font would do the trick as far as MS Word, and MS
    > Explorer are concerned.
    >
    > However, I now see that Mozilla Firefox does not recognize this font
    > and the correct characters are not displayed.
    >
    > Note: all the testing is done on my computer, so I know the font is on
    > the computer somewhere.
    >
    > What is the remedy?
    >
    > Thanks,
    >
    > Willwww.berkeleyscience.com


    Thanks to all. All fixed now, e.g.

    www.berkeleyscience.com/synopsis4.htm

    I just did the &omega; business. Perfect.
    joesplink, Feb 20, 2008
    #14
  15. joesplink

    richard Guest

    On Tue, 19 Feb 2008 16:29:06 -0800 (PST), joesplink
    <> wrote:

    >On Feb 19, 9:27 am, joesplink <> wrote:
    >> I wanted to use some greek letters on my web page, and discovered that
    >> using the Symbol font would do the trick as far as MS Word, and MS
    >> Explorer are concerned.
    >>
    >> However, I now see that Mozilla Firefox does not recognize this font
    >> and the correct characters are not displayed.
    >>
    >> Note: all the testing is done on my computer, so I know the font is on
    >> the computer somewhere.
    >>
    >> What is the remedy?
    >>
    >> Thanks,
    >>
    >> Willwww.berkeleyscience.com

    >
    >Thanks to all. All fixed now, e.g.
    >
    >www.berkeleyscience.com/synopsis4.htm
    >
    >I just did the &omega; business. Perfect.



    By the time anyone had all that figured out, he'd not have the time to
    write the music before his impending death.
    Unless he started at the age of 10.

    Does anyone really care to know all that crap?
    richard, Feb 20, 2008
    #15
  16. joesplink

    dorayme Guest

    In article <>,
    richard <> wrote:

    > On Tue, 19 Feb 2008 16:29:06 -0800 (PST), joesplink
    > <> wrote:
    >
    > >On Feb 19, 9:27 am, joesplink <> wrote:
    > >> I wanted to use some greek letters on my web page, and ...


    > >> Willwww.berkeleyscience.com

    > >


    > Does anyone really care to know all that crap?


    Yes, there are people who take an interest in things other than
    how to get a difficult sump plug off a 4-ton Bedford truck.

    --
    dorayme
    dorayme, Feb 20, 2008
    #16
  17. tech578 wrote:

    > Notepad recognizes utf-8.


    It does in Windows 2000 and Windows XP onwards, but not in earlier
    versions of Windows.

    --
    Toby A Inkster BSc (Hons) ARCS
    [Geek of HTML/SQL/Perl/PHP/Python/Apache/Linux]
    [OS: Linux 2.6.17.14-mm-desktop-9mdvsmp, up 21 days, 16:37.]

    Bottled Water
    http://tobyinkster.co.uk/blog/2008/02/18/bottled-water/
    Toby A Inkster, Feb 20, 2008
    #17
  18. joesplink

    Andy Dingley Guest

    On 20 Feb, 01:21, richard <> wrote:

    > >www.berkeleyscience.com/synopsis4.htm


    > By the time anyone had all that figured out, he'd not have the time to
    > write the music before his impending death.
    > Unless he started at the age of 10.
    >
    > Does anyone really care to know all that crap?


    Yes Bullis, there are.

    That's why you're universally known as "Richard The Stupid", other
    people, people who take an interest in topics like Fourier, aren't
    labelled that way.
    Andy Dingley, Feb 20, 2008
    #18
  19. joesplink

    richard Guest

    On Wed, 20 Feb 2008 02:45:30 -0800 (PST), Andy Dingley
    <> wrote:

    >On 20 Feb, 01:21, richard <> wrote:
    >
    >> >www.berkeleyscience.com/synopsis4.htm

    >
    >> By the time anyone had all that figured out, he'd not have the time to
    >> write the music before his impending death.
    >> Unless he started at the age of 10.
    >>
    >> Does anyone really care to know all that crap?

    >
    >Yes Bullis, there are [people who care].
    >
    >That's why you're universally known as "Richard The Stupid", other
    >people, people who take an interest in topics like Fourier, aren't
    >labelled that way.


    Pardon Moi y scusami por favor.
    My forte' is not the art of orchestration.
    I could care less how the orchestra is arranged, only that the
    musicians know how to play what is given them.
    In my younger days, I had learned how to play the piano, accordian
    (eeek!), trumpet, and even the guitar kind of.

    --
    "Tell a lie often enough, loud enough, and long enough and people will believe you."
    Adolph Hitler
    A lie can travel halfway around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes.
    Mark Twain(attributed)
    richard, Feb 20, 2008
    #19
  20. joesplink

    Andy Dingley Guest

    On 20 Feb, 15:50, richard <> wrote:

    > In my younger days, I had learned how to play the piano, accordian (eeek!)


    Thanks for the offer, but I think I'll keep the monkey.
    I'm not sure the little velvet suit would fit you anyway.
    Andy Dingley, Feb 20, 2008
    #20
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