Using a photo-editor to make web pages - how can I reduce the source code?

Discussion in 'HTML' started by Joey, Jan 5, 2006.

  1. Joey

    Joey Guest

    Hi there,

    Please don't laugh, but I am using my photo editor (Ulead Photoimpact
    11) to create my website. I simply do not have the time needed to
    learn html and frontpage and I have been using Photoimpact for years
    and this one is pretty good - in that I can create rollover objects
    and banners, menus etc with great ease. So I am almost content with
    it, except for the length of time it takes to load the page on screen.

    A colleague who knows HTML had a look at it and said that the source
    code is 5 pages long whereas most sites are about 2, and he says this
    is why browsers load the page so slowly.

    Is there anyway I can reduce this? I have compared my home page source
    code with that of a similar site and one of the main differences is
    that mine is filled with entries like this:

    </SCRIPT></HEAD><BODY TOPMARGIN=0 LEFTMARGIN=0 MARGINWIDTH=0
    MARGINHEIGHT=0><TABLE BORDER=0 CELLPADDING=0 CELLSPACING=0><TR><TD
    WIDTH=469 HEIGHT=4 COLSPAN=21></TD><TD COLSPAN=7 ROWSPAN=2><IMG
    SRC=images/_1.jpg WIDTH=159 BORDER=0 HEIGHT=59></TD><TD WIDTH=46
    HEIGHT=59 COLSPAN=6 ROWSPAN=2></TD></TR><TR><TD WIDTH=19 HEIGHT=60
    COLSPAN=3 ROWSPAN=2></TD><TD COLSPAN=6 ROWSPAN=2><IMG SRC=images/_4.jpg
    WIDTH=215 BORDER=0 HEIGHT=60></TD><TD WIDTH=235 HEIGHT=55
    COLSPAN=12></TD></TR><TR><TD WIDTH=440 HEIGHT=5
    COLSPAN=25></TD></TR><TR><TD WIDTH=6 HEIGHT=10></TD><TD COLSPAN=32><IMG
    SRC=images/_8.jpg WIDTH=664 BORDER=0 HEIGHT=10></TD><TD WIDTH=4
    HEIGHT=10></TD></TR><TR><TD WIDTH=674 HEIGHT=15
    COLSPAN=34></TD></TR><TR><TD COLSPAN=30><IMG SRC=images/_11.jpg
    WIDTH=642 BORDER=0 HEIGHT=7></TD><TD WIDTH=32 HEIGHT=42 COLSPAN=4
    ROWSPAN=3></TD></TR><TR><TD COLSPAN=5><IMG SRC=images/_13.jpg WIDTH=100
    BORDER=0 HEIGHT=13></TD><TD BACKGROUND=images/_14.jpg>

    Is this what is causing the slow loading of my page? I can provide the
    link to my site but I don't want to do it publically here, so if
    anyone can help by knowing the site and looking at it - just email me
    and i can email you back the link.

    Cheers in advance,

    Lost.Joey (at gmail...)
     
    Joey, Jan 5, 2006
    #1
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  2. Joey

    Guest

    You touchy, you breaky.

    It looks like the program is using tables extensively to format your
    page, which is extremely inefficient and fragile, and definitely "write
    only."

    This is why WYSIWYG editors are evil incarnate, yea, the devil's hand
    on earth. Learn HTML, learn CSS, and do-it-yourself. It's really less
    painful than you think.

    Or keep with your editor, and live with the long upload times.

    Walter Gildersleeve
    Freiburg, Germany

    ______________________________________________________
    http://linkfrog.net
    URL Shortening
    Free and easy, small and green.
     
    , Jan 5, 2006
    #2
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  3. Joey

    Joey Guest

    Yes, I realise that, but what I mean is - is there any way I can
    *salvage* what I have already created - rather than create my web page
    from scratch all over again?
    Could I open it in a HTML editor and make a few small changes to
    improve things? Or would it be like a house of cards where if I remove
    one thing the whole structure comes crashing down?

    Joey
     
    Joey, Jan 5, 2006
    #3
  4. Joey

    Jose Guest

    Re: Using a photo-editor to make web pages - how can I reduce thesource code?

    > Could I open it in a HTML editor and make a few small changes to
    > improve things? Or would it be like a house of cards where if I remove
    > one thing the whole structure comes crashing down?


    I suspect the latter. Your code is laboriously placing every element
    somewhere precise, and (of course) the browsers comply to the user's
    detriment (won't gracefully resize, demands certain window widths, etc).
    Post a link and you may get more help. To "fix" the code you'll have
    to take out at least two thirds of it... and figuring out which two
    thirds is harder than simply re-creating it.

    HTML is not a presentation tool. It is a description tool. The web
    browser is the presentation tool. You tell the browser =what= something
    represents, and the browser decides how to best represent it.

    Despite the opinions of some that decry WYSIWIG HTML editors, they do
    have their place for simple sites (but avoid FrontPage like the plague,
    as it locks you into itself). I run a simple site using Netscape
    Composer and it works fine for my purposes right now. It's easy to
    create content, and you can see and mess with the code. Doing so you
    can teach yourself the rudiments of HTML too (though it does use tables
    for layout, a tolerable evil IMHO when compared with the huge amounts of
    CSS code I have seen on some sites (every word seems to have its own set
    of tags!).

    Post a link to your site so we can see what you are trying to do.

    Jose
    --
    You can choose whom to befriend, but you cannot choose whom to love.
    for Email, make the obvious change in the address.
     
    Jose, Jan 5, 2006
    #4
  5. Joey

    Mark Parnell Guest

    Deciding to do something for the good of humanity, Joey
    <> spouted in alt.html:

    > A colleague who knows HTML had a look at it and said that the source
    > code is 5 pages long whereas most sites are about 2, and he says this
    > is why browsers load the page so slowly.

    <snip>
    > Is this what is causing the slow loading of my page?


    To an extent, yes. That code certainly is nasty. But the large number of
    images would be slowing it down a lot more. Try optimising the images
    further, or reducing the number of images on each page. If it's a page
    of thumbnails, make sure they *are* thumbnails, not just the full image
    shrunk by the HTML.

    There really is no substitute for doing it yourself.

    --
    Mark Parnell
    =====================================================
    Att. Google Groups users - this is your last warning:
    http://www.safalra.com/special/googlegroupsreply/
     
    Mark Parnell, Jan 6, 2006
    #5
  6. Joey

    dorayme Guest

    In article
    <>,
    "Joey" <> wrote:

    > Hi there,
    >
    > Please don't laugh, but I am using my photo editor (Ulead Photoimpact
    > 11) to create my website. I simply do not have the time needed to
    > learn html and frontpage and I have been using Photoimpact for years
    > and this one is pretty good - in that I can create rollover objects
    > and banners, menus etc with great ease. So I am almost content with
    > it, except for the length of time it takes to load the page on screen.
    >
    > A colleague who knows HTML had a look at it and said that the source
    > code is 5 pages long whereas most sites are about 2, and he says this
    > is why browsers load the page so slowly.
    >
    > Is there anyway I can reduce this? I have compared my home page source
    > code with that of a similar site and one of the main differences is
    > that mine is filled with entries like this:
    >
    > </SCRIPT></HEAD><BODY TOPMARGIN=0 LEFTMARGIN=0 MARGINWIDTH=0
    > MARGINHEIGHT=0><TABLE BORDER=0 C


    I suspect it is slow because there are too many pictures rather
    than too much html (which it would have too much of, true). Your
    method is very unwise. At the very least use software that sort
    of specialises in producing html, dreamweaver and so on, google
    up. Photo editing software has some of these functions to do
    image maps, rollovers and so on but I suspect you are essentially
    doing everything in pictures and it is fighting to display
    them... Don't do it.

    --
    dorayme
     
    dorayme, Jan 6, 2006
    #6
  7. Joey

    Chaddy2222 Guest

    Joey wrote:

    > Hi there,
    >
    > Please don't laugh, but I am using my photo editor (Ulead Photoimpact
    > 11) to create my website. I simply do not have the time needed to
    > learn html and frontpage and I have been using Photoimpact for years
    > and this one is pretty good - in that I can create rollover objects
    > and banners, menus etc with great ease. So I am almost content with
    > it, except for the length of time it takes to load the page on screen.
    >
    > A colleague who knows HTML had a look at it and said that the source
    > code is 5 pages long whereas most sites are about 2, and he says this
    > is why browsers load the page so slowly.
    >
    > Is there anyway I can reduce this? I have compared my home page source
    > code with that of a similar site and one of the main differences is
    > that mine is filled with entries like this:
    >
    > </SCRIPT></HEAD><BODY TOPMARGIN=0 LEFTMARGIN=0 MARGINWIDTH=0
    > MARGINHEIGHT=0><TABLE BORDER=0 CELLPADDING=0 CELLSPACING=0><TR><TD
    > WIDTH=469 HEIGHT=4 COLSPAN=21></TD><TD COLSPAN=7 ROWSPAN=2><IMG
    > SRC=images/_1.jpg WIDTH=159 BORDER=0 HEIGHT=59></TD><TD WIDTH=46
    > HEIGHT=59 COLSPAN=6 ROWSPAN=2></TD></TR><TR><TD WIDTH=19 HEIGHT=60
    > COLSPAN=3 ROWSPAN=2></TD><TD COLSPAN=6 ROWSPAN=2><IMG SRC=images/_4.jpg
    > WIDTH=215 BORDER=0 HEIGHT=60></TD><TD WIDTH=235 HEIGHT=55
    > COLSPAN=12></TD></TR><TR><TD WIDTH=440 HEIGHT=5
    > COLSPAN=25></TD></TR><TR><TD WIDTH=6 HEIGHT=10></TD><TD COLSPAN=32><IMG
    > SRC=images/_8.jpg WIDTH=664 BORDER=0 HEIGHT=10></TD><TD WIDTH=4
    > HEIGHT=10></TD></TR><TR><TD WIDTH=674 HEIGHT=15
    > COLSPAN=34></TD></TR><TR><TD COLSPAN=30><IMG SRC=images/_11.jpg
    > WIDTH=642 BORDER=0 HEIGHT=7></TD><TD WIDTH=32 HEIGHT=42 COLSPAN=4
    > ROWSPAN=3></TD></TR><TR><TD COLSPAN=5><IMG SRC=images/_13.jpg WIDTH=100
    > BORDER=0 HEIGHT=13></TD><TD BACKGROUND=images/_14.jpg>


    >
    > Is this what is causing the slow loading of my page?


    Maybe.

    I can provide the
    > link to my site but I don't want to do it publically here, so if
    > anyone can help by knowing the site and looking at it - just email me
    > and i can email you back the link.
    >
    > Cheers in advance,
    >
    > Lost.Joey (at gmail...)

    You should not really use a graphics editor for the creation of web
    pages. That's not what they are ment for. You would be better off
    taking a look at NVU from, http://www.nvu.com
    A good easy to use HTML editor, and it's WYSIWYG.
    --
    Regards Chad. http://freewebdesign.cjb.cc
     
    Chaddy2222, Jan 6, 2006
    #7
  8. Joey

    Greg N. Guest

    Re: Using a photo-editor to make web pages - how can I reduce thesource code?

    Joey wrote:

    > Is this what is causing the slow loading of my page?


    You know, this is alt.HTML so any problem caused by an HTML generator
    tool like yours causes a pharyngeal reflex which manifests itself in
    "don't use such a tool" being spouted at you.

    Still, at this point it is all speculation. Show us the page URL and
    you'll get an explanation what the real performance problem is in no time.

    > I can provide the
    > link to my site but I don't want to do it publically here, so if
    > anyone can help by knowing the site and looking at it - just email me
    > and i can email you back the link.


    No, I don't want to deal with private mail and be your personal tutor.
    Show us the page. If it's some secret private stuff then sanitize the
    pictures and show us a sanitized example.

    --
    Gregor's Motorradreisen:
    http://hothaus.de/greg-tour/
     
    Greg N., Jan 6, 2006
    #8
  9. Joey

    JDS Guest

    JDS, Jan 7, 2006
    #9
  10. Joey

    Neredbojias Guest

    With neither quill nor qualm, JDS quothed:

    > On Thu, 05 Jan 2006 16:49:06 +0000, Jose wrote:
    >
    > > though it does use tables
    > > for layout, a tolerable evil IMHO when compared with the huge amounts of
    > > CSS code I have seen on some sites (every word seems to have its own set
    > > of tags!).

    >
    > No way, jose


    Are you referring to the poster "Jose" or the general "Jose" of no-way
    fame?

    Anyway, I agree with, uh, Jose. Css is far from perfected and there is
    a place for tables, which still can do some things css can't, in what
    might be called a layout venue. Undoubtedly tables are over-used, but
    that doesn't invalidate their occasional application.

    --
    Neredbojias
    Contrary to popular belief, it is believable.
     
    Neredbojias, Jan 7, 2006
    #10
  11. Gazing into my crystal ball I observed "Joey" <> writing
    in news::

    > Hi there,
    >
    > Please don't laugh, but I am using my photo editor (Ulead Photoimpact
    > 11) to create my website. I simply do not have the time needed to
    > learn html


    HTML is easy and hand coding takes up much less time than using a WYSIWYG
    and having to fix its problems later.

    > and frontpage


    Oh, the Humanity!

    > and I have been using Photoimpact for years
    > and this one is pretty good - in that I can create rollover objects
    > and banners, menus etc with great ease.


    Images with text can be a problem, especially if the text is small. There
    is no way for the user to resize (except for Opera). If you want to do
    rollovers, use PI to make buttons/backgrounds for the different states, and
    use CSS to do the actual rolling over. Google for CSS rollovers, there are
    many examples.

    > So I am almost content with
    > it, except for the length of time it takes to load the page on screen.


    I have been using PI since version 3, but I would never rely on it to
    produce HTML.

    >
    > A colleague who knows HTML had a look at it and said that the source
    > code is 5 pages long whereas most sites are about 2, and he says this
    > is why browsers load the page so slowly.


    One of the things PI does is it relys on tables to position objects.
    Tables should be used for tabular data. Tables can take a long time to
    load, especially if they are large, or have other tables embedded in them.
    >
    > Is there anyway I can reduce this?


    <snip>
    Not really. You're better off starting over. You can, of course, copy and
    paste any text. Use a Strict Doc Type and CSS.

    You see, by putting all your presenation into a stylesheet, you can use the
    same stylesheet for the entire site. Say for example, you have a menu
    that's in a table, and you need to make it wider. With CSS, you change the
    width in the stylesheet, and it changes the entire site. Without CSS, you
    have to change every single page.

    >
    > Cheers in advance,
    >
    > Lost.Joey (at gmail...)
    >




    --
    Adrienne Boswell
    http://www.cavalcade-of-coding.info
    Please respond to the group so others can share
     
    Adrienne Boswell, Jan 8, 2006
    #11
  12. Re: Using a photo-editor to make web pages - how can I reduce thesource code?

    On Sun, 8 Jan 2006, Adrienne Boswell wrote:

    > Images with text can be a problem, especially if the text is small.


    Agreed.

    > There is no way for the user to resize (except for Opera).


    There's no way provided in the browsers' standard user interface,
    agreed; but if you look around for bookmarklets/favelets, you can find
    ways of doing it in other browsers.

    However, there's no guarantee that zooming an image of text will
    really make it more readable. On the other hand, if the author has
    done their job properly, any substantive text appearing in the image
    would normally have been made available in the alt= attribute, so
    maybe that's the place to look for enlightenment, if push comes to
    shove. (When you find that the author didn't have a clue about alt
    text, you can always leave...)
     
    Alan J. Flavell, Jan 8, 2006
    #12
  13. Adrienne Boswell wrote:

    > I have been using PI since version 3, but I would never rely on it to
    > produce HTML.


    Don't you mean since version 3.14159...? :)


    --
    Blinky Reg Linux User 297263
    Killfiling all posts from Google Groups
    Details: http://blinkynet.net/comp/uip5.html
     
    Blinky the Shark, Jan 9, 2006
    #13
  14. Joey

    Neredbojias Guest

    With neither quill nor qualm, Blinky the Shark quothed:

    > Adrienne Boswell wrote:
    >
    > > I have been using PI since version 3, but I would never rely on it to
    > > produce HTML.

    >
    > Don't you mean since version 3.14159...? :)


    I believe you're inciting a circular argument.

    --
    Neredbojias
    Contrary to popular belief, it is believable.
     
    Neredbojias, Jan 9, 2006
    #14
  15. Re: Using a photo-editor to make web pages - how can I reduce thesource code?

    Neredbojias wrote:

    > With neither quill nor qualm, Blinky the Shark quothed:
    >
    >
    >>Adrienne Boswell wrote:
    >>
    >>
    >>>I have been using PI since version 3, but I would never rely on it to
    >>>produce HTML.

    >>
    >>
    >>Don't you mean since version 3.14159...? :)

    >
    >
    > I believe you're inciting a circular argument.
    >

    to some degree...

    --
    Take care,

    Jonathan
    -------------------
    LITTLE WORKS STUDIO
    http://www.LittleWorksStudio.com
     
    Jonathan N. Little, Jan 9, 2006
    #15
  16. Joey

    Joey Guest

    Hi sorry for my delayed thanks everyone.

    I just wanted to say that I have tried to compromise by editing a
    little of the HTML without completely erasing the document and starting
    from scratch. As a webmaster beginner I think it would be foolish to
    stop entirely using my photo editor to build rollovers and structure
    the overall layout. But I did find a sort of (although time-consuming)
    workaround to help the pages load faster:

    I researched the various options for page-loading optimization and
    figured I was actually loading images all over again which were
    possible to be duplicated. I had put each web page in its own
    directory with its own 'images' folder, and 50% of these images were
    identical menu /logo graphics from the home page. So basically I am
    now changing the source code of each web page to share images in the
    same 'images' folder - which is helping a little now with the loading
    of the pages.

    In addition, I have also tentatively changed some source code without
    shattering everything- for example centering the page was easy enough.
    However, when I tried to add a background the menu graphics shifted
    slightly and looked somewhat uneven so I have gave up on the coloured
    background...

    Anyway, I'm learning in small steps .. thanks everyone for your advice!

    Joey
     
    Joey, Jan 10, 2006
    #16
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