Using hobby source code in your job ?

[RCollins]

It probably is but how does a judge and jury determine
that the copyright belongs to you and not someone else?

Article 3 of the Berne Convention states that, at least for citizens of
member countries, all works by an author are protected whether published
or not.

Article 15 states that, "in the absence of proof to the contrary, ... it
shall be sufficient for [the author's] name to appear on the work in the
usual manner."

It's evidence that you claimed the copyright at some point in time.

It's prima facie evidence; once someone provides evidence that you are
not the author, what name is on the work is irrelevant.

No legal contractual agreement
can compel you to help your new employer steal code
that you wrote for a former employer.

Obviously a contract cannot compel you to violate the copyright of a
former employer.

However, if the code is yours (not a work for hire), you can certainly
by compelled by contract to hand all of your copyrights over to
someone.

I'm sorry, I don't understand this. How can a company (whether I work
for them or not) lay claim to a product that I developed on my own time,
using my own equipment and resources? (Excluding, of course, the normal
"conflict of interest" clauses, which says I may not compete for
business with my employer.)

In fact, that seems to be a standard part of most employment
contracts these days.

I have dealt with quite a few software contract workers, both
self-employed and those employed by an agency, but I've never seen
anything like this. OTOH, my professional arena is rather specialized,
with not a lot of players. In what engineering discipline would the
contract clause you mentioned above be considered "standard"? (I may
want to avoid that area in the future!)

 

[Andrew Koenig]

I'm sorry, I don't understand this. How can a company (whether I work
for them or not) lay claim to a product that I developed on my own time,
using my own equipment and resources? (Excluding, of course, the normal
"conflict of interest" clauses, which says I may not compete for
business with my employer.)

Unless you're being paid by the hour, there is no such thing as "your own
time".

 

[Joona I Palaste]

Andrew Koenig <[email protected]> scribbled the following

Unless you're being paid by the hour, there is no such thing as "your own
time".

Not even on weekends?

 

[Andrew Koenig]

Not even on weekends?

In general, no. It's a matter of what you and your employer agree on.

 

[Keith Thompson]

I think it's awfully presumptuous that any snippet that you write
is so unique that it could be NOT considered part of the public
domain and could have a copyright applied...

I believe the term "public domain" has a specific legal meaning.
I won't discuss it further here.

All this talk about hobby code, unless it applies to an application,
independent in its' own right, and applicable to a specific task, or
at very least a group of tasks, is much ado about nothing..

I suppose it might depend on what you mean by "hobby code". Some
hobby code can be quite large, and copyright law can definitely apply
to it.

And definitely not On Topic here...

Agreed.

I've redirected followups to /dev/null. If you insist on posting a
followup, you can post to these same newsgroups, but please don't.

 

[E. Robert Tisdale]

Unless you're being paid by the hour,
there is no such thing as "your own time".

Spoken like a true company man.
Who owns you?

 

[E. Robert Tisdale]

And definitely not On Topic here...

It is topical only to the extent that
every source file should include a copyright notice
including the date and the name of the copyright owner.
If you are unsure about who the copyright belongs,
you (the author) should claim it for yourself.
You can always transfer copyright ownership
to the rightful owner later.

 

[Andrew Koenig]

Spoken like a true company man.
Who owns you?

No one. Not any more. That's part of the reason.

 

[E. Robert Tisdale]

No one. Not any more. That's part of the reason.

http://careerlaunch.jpl.nasa.gov/

 

[Ann]

Spoken like a true company man.
Who owns you?

Reminds me of the time the boss called us in for a chat
about "no overtime pay" and he says:
Those of you that are hourly, you are not allowed to work overtime.
Those of you that are staff, you are paid to get a job done.

 

[andthen]

Nevermind, found the problem. There was one line that I took out before
posting the code that I didn't realize was creating a thread that keeps
running.

 

[Scott Ellsworth]

Your employer cannot compel you to transfer the copyright
for code that you wrote on your own time
or code that you wrote for another employer.

Slight correction: as I understand it (IANAL, but I did talk to one
about this), most of us work under "work for hire" contracts. Thus,
everything we do on company time or with company materials is a work for
hire, and implicitly copyrighted by them. The "company materials" is
the kicker - if you use one of their machines, or a compiler they paid
for, or _any_ company materials to create your code, you could end up
being judged as having done a work for hire.

In the case of the original poster, he did work prior to joining his
prospective employeer. Thus far, so good.

As soon as he uses it in a work project, or develops on it with their
resources or on their time, it may have become a work for hire.
Further, if it gets ugly, and you get hauled into court, then it really
hurts if they have proof that you did things that might have turned it
into a work for hire.

Remember, once it has become theirs, they potentially can go after
others using the code for copyright violation, including you. Most will
not, but the recent SCO suits have shown that it _can_ happen.

There is a simple solution - most contracts I have signed as an employee
have a section where I am to list products, patents, or software
developed on my own where there might be a potential conflict. Use
those sections - describe in appropriately vague terms what you have
done, and file for copyright. (I know that you do not have to, but
having done so will make it much easier if it ever does get to court.)

My experience is that employers have no objection
to using third party packages or even freeware
if they can get the necessary licenses at a reasonable price.

This has been my experience as well. Coughing up a few hundred for a
third party product, even one which I wrote, is often not a problem, as
long as they get the source, and the license is such that they get to
keep that source and all modifications to it.

Don't try to *sell* your employer a license
as this creates a "conflict of interest".

I have had this work, but only when I was selling them a block of code
already on the market, and where it was clear that they would own it
once paying the price. You are opening yourself up for questions, so I
am not sure I would do this under most circumstances.

You can distribute your code under an open source license
and you should try to convince your employer
to allow you to "contribute" to the package
which would allow you to maintain your software on company time.

This has happened to me several times, and it has worked well. Watch
your license terms carefully, as they may get a bit excited if your
library ends up GPLing their product.

Scott

 

[Jim P]

[...]

1. Do you use your hobby source code in your job ?

Yes. If I need a specific control that I already have in my library,
I have no intention of re-writing it. That would be f!#$ken stupid
and a waste of my time. I could copy and past just the parts that I
need, but my library is too interwoven for that.

The biggest waste is that of company money. They are, after all, paying
for my time. If done work redone is what they want, they can have it
for all I care.

You might not care about re-writing stuff, but I do. In my case GUI controls
are often tedious to write. Tedious twice is boring.

This is a pragmatist's viewpoint. An extreme pragmatist. Not everything
you will probably get away with is ethical.

Well, I guess thats where we differ . I have worked for enough lousy
companies (and one decent one) where the sleazy world of "company ethics"
has been revealed. Companies are INHERENTLY unethical. They are scum (p.s.,
I am 29 and have been programming professionally for 9yrs). Think about it.
The average salaried Sr. Software Engineer will get about $90k to $120k per
year in the US. How much will your manager make? probably quite a bit more
in base + bonuses + stock options -- for doing quite a bit less (shooting
the shit in meetings all day). At the average company, the average manager
could make 2 to 3 times the money after its all said and done for doing
almost nothing except project schedules. How about more Sr. managers? well,
by the time you get higher up in the company, people are making 10 times or
more what you make, again, for doing very little.

Sorry, but why should I work my ass off to make them rich? you call it
unethical, I call it realistic. If a manager is making $500k a year and I am
making $90k to $120k, thats not fair. Yes thats how business works, and
thats why I really don't give a shit. I don't go out of my way to help the
company.

And in case you are wondering... my company loves me, but do they show it
with money or other compensation? hell no. If my manager is making $500k a
year base, "fair" is me making over $300k to $400k, if not more. After all,
the manager is making money off MY work. As is the company.

The amount of stock options is equally out of wack.

That was slightly off topic, but was to make my point. I could really not
give a shit about ethics or the company. If I am not making any money off my
work, I'm just a salaried employee, so I am not going to go out of my way
to do extra or put in long hours, etc.

And as I said before, I hide my opinion around most people, and my company
loves me, but I could really not give a shit about helping them since I know
I'm not being compensated fairly.

Yes I am bitter

A company hiring a programmer is inherently buying access to
_knowledge_. As a programmer myself, I see little enough difference
between what's in my head and what's on my (home) harddisk. They can
have the use, but not the ownership, of both.

I have been careful in my last four jobs to have in my contract that
anything done on my own time that is not directly related to however
the company makes its money, is none of their business. If I write a
game on my own time, it's mine. If I have a good idea how to solve a
work problem, of course it's theirs. If it makes them _really_ big
money, they would of course do well to acknowlege it and motivate me
to have more ideas like that.

Groetjes,
Maarten Wiltink

Well, here in the US, companies are pretty much in charge. Often, if you
rock the boat by asking for stuff in contracts they'll just get someone else
wh

So you sit at your desk programming and full of anger at the same time.

Time to understand life - I have designed products that have given the
companies that I work for Patents, Sold Millions of dollars of product
because of my innovative ideas. But that is what I am hired for.
o rolls over.Remind me to not hire you.

That kind of attitude is a killer and eats at the insides of a person.

and will show in any conversations about rights and ideas. So you
limits yourself and value to the company. Even while getting a good
wage. and lots of people are interested in your job.
and that attitude like this will keep you from advancing and making the
money that you are assuming they are making.

And guess what, You boss is not making that kind of money - in your
anger you are making guesses about his income and stock options and lots
of assumptions.

You are only one part of the company and a small part of it.

Jim P.

 

[Andrew Thompson]

Reminds me of the time the boss called us in for a chat
about "no overtime pay" and he says:
Those of you that are hourly, you are not allowed to work overtime.
Those of you that are staff, you are paid to get a job done.

Why were the staffers' even at the meeting? Why weren't they
already working (their little fingers to the bone)?

If a member of the staff even required that to be explained,
it would be in person, one to one, and immediately followed by
"..that's why the company will not be renewing your contract.
Good luck with future positions.".

[ I would have set follow-ups if there was a single group in that
slew of x-posts that was even slightly relevant. ]

 

[Jens.Toerring]

Andrew Koenig wrote:

http://careerlaunch.jpl.nasa.gov/

Wow, now I am deeply impressed:

"The JPL Career Launch website is compatible with

Microsoft Internet Explorer versions 5.5 & 6.0
and Netscape Navigator version 4.7 & 7.0

In order to access the JPL Career Launch website using a Macintosh
you must use Internet Explorer under a PC emulator."

And even for that they need an image... They can't create a working
website when they are supposed to do rocket science?

Regards, Jens

 

[Joona I Palaste]

(e-mail address removed)-berlin.de scribbled the following

Wow, now I am deeply impressed:

"The JPL Career Launch website is compatible with

Microsoft Internet Explorer versions 5.5 & 6.0
and Netscape Navigator version 4.7 & 7.0

In order to access the JPL Career Launch website using a Macintosh
you must use Internet Explorer under a PC emulator."

And even for that they need an image... They can't create a working
website when they are supposed to do rocket science?

As well as that, I seriously doubt any part of their website actually
*requires* Billware or Netscape. I am using Mozilla 1.7.3 on Linux (an
OS which I doubt the designers of the website have ever heard of), and
I could enter as a guest and search for available jobs just fine. I
tried referring a job to another person but that option is for
registered visitors only.

 

[CBFalconer]

.... snip ...


Wow, now I am deeply impressed:

"The JPL Career Launch website is compatible with

Microsoft Internet Explorer versions 5.5 & 6.0
and Netscape Navigator version 4.7 & 7.0

In order to access the JPL Career Launch website using a Macintosh
you must use Internet Explorer under a PC emulator."

And even for that they need an image... They can't create a working
website when they are supposed to do rocket science?

For further (and similar impression) follow the writings of a
certain ERT in c.l.c over the past few years. You will be amazed
that any US space entities ever reached any objectives. I suspect
that JPL should refund any and all monies received.

 

[Old Wolf]

Wow, now I am deeply impressed:

"The JPL Career Launch website is compatible with

Microsoft Internet Explorer versions 5.5 & 6.0
and Netscape Navigator version 4.7 & 7.0

In order to access the JPL Career Launch website using a Macintosh
you must use Internet Explorer under a PC emulator."

And even for that they need an image... They can't create a working
website when they are supposed to do rocket science?

Why are you surprised. ERT thinks that C is defined by
what his compiler outputs. I wonder what JPL would have
done if Microsoft hadn't invented the interweb.

 

[Ann]

Reminds me of the time the boss called us in for a chat
about "no overtime pay" and he says:
Those of you that are hourly, you are not allowed to work overtime.
Those of you that are staff, you are paid to get a job done.

Why were the staffers' even at the meeting? Why weren't they
already working (their little fingers to the bone)?

If a member of the staff even required that to be explained,
it would be in person, one to one, and immediately followed by
"..that's why the company will not be renewing your contract.
Good luck with future positions.".

[ I would have set follow-ups if there was a single group in that
slew of x-posts that was even slightly relevant. ]

95% of the group is staff. Sorry about x-post, I didn't notice, just hit
reply.

 

[Nobody]

[...]

1. Do you use your hobby source code in your job ?

Yes. If I need a specific control that I already have in my library,
I have no intention of re-writing it. That would be f!#$ken stupid
and a waste of my time. I could copy and past just the parts that I
need, but my library is too interwoven for that.

The biggest waste is that of company money. They are, after all, paying
for my time. If done work redone is what they want, they can have it
for all I care.

You might not care about re-writing stuff, but I do. In my case GUI
controls are often tedious to write. Tedious twice is boring.

This could create problems ?!?

It can only cause you problems if you start to rock the boat...
<and more along this line>

This is a pragmatist's viewpoint. An extreme pragmatist. Not everything
you will probably get away with is ethical.

Well, I guess thats where we differ . I have worked for enough lousy
companies (and one decent one) where the sleazy world of "company ethics"
has been revealed. Companies are INHERENTLY unethical. They are scum
(p.s., I am 29 and have been programming professionally for 9yrs). Think
about it. The average salaried Sr. Software Engineer will get about $90k
to $120k per year in the US. How much will your manager make? probably
quite a bit more in base + bonuses + stock options -- for doing quite a
bit less (shooting the shit in meetings all day). At the average company,
the average manager could make 2 to 3 times the money after its all said
and done for doing almost nothing except project schedules. How about
more Sr. managers? well, by the time you get higher up in the company,
people are making 10 times or more what you make, again, for doing very
little.

Sorry, but why should I work my ass off to make them rich? you call it
unethical, I call it realistic. If a manager is making $500k a year and I
am making $90k to $120k, thats not fair. Yes thats how business works,
and thats why I really don't give a shit. I don't go out of my way to
help the company.

And in case you are wondering... my company loves me, but do they show it
with money or other compensation? hell no. If my manager is making $500k
a year base, "fair" is me making over $300k to $400k, if not more. After
all, the manager is making money off MY work. As is the company.

The amount of stock options is equally out of wack.

That was slightly off topic, but was to make my point. I could really not
give a shit about ethics or the company. If I am not making any money off
my work, I'm just a salaried employee, so I am not going to go out of my
way to do extra or put in long hours, etc.

And as I said before, I hide my opinion around most people, and my
company loves me, but I could really not give a shit about helping them
since I know I'm not being compensated fairly.

Yes I am bitter

A company hiring a programmer is inherently buying access to
_knowledge_. As a programmer myself, I see little enough difference
between what's in my head and what's on my (home) harddisk. They can
have the use, but not the ownership, of both.

I have been careful in my last four jobs to have in my contract that
anything done on my own time that is not directly related to however
the company makes its money, is none of their business. If I write a
game on my own time, it's mine. If I have a good idea how to solve a
work problem, of course it's theirs. If it makes them _really_ big
money, they would of course do well to acknowlege it and motivate me
to have more ideas like that.

Groetjes,
Maarten Wiltink

Well, here in the US, companies are pretty much in charge. Often, if you
rock the boat by asking for stuff in contracts they'll just get someone
else wh

So you sit at your desk programming and full of anger at the same time.

Time to understand life - I have designed products that have given the
companies that I work for Patents, Sold Millions of dollars of product
because of my innovative ideas. But that is what I am hired for.
o rolls over.

I am not "full of anger". If I was "full of anger" all the time, I would
probably be dead from a heart attack or something. Not going out of my way
and being full of anger are two different things. As I said, I understand
this is how companies work. All they care about is making management rich.
See Enron, see the recent articles about Electronic Arts, see just about
every other company.

Remind me to not hire you.

I wouldn't want to work for you if you expect my life to revolve around the
company while getting nothing in return. As I said, I don't consider a few
thousand in stock options compensation when managers make millions.

That kind of attitude is a killer and eats at the insides of a person.

and will show in any conversations about rights and ideas. So you limits
yourself and value to the company. Even while getting a good wage. and
lots of people are interested in your job.
and that attitude like this will keep you from advancing and making the
money that you are assuming they are making.

And guess what, You boss is not making that kind of money - in your anger
you are making guesses about his income and stock options and lots of
assumptions.

You are only one part of the company and a small part of it.

Jim P.

As I said, I mostly keep my opinions to myself, close friends and I have
talked about it, and lots of them feel the same way. I have even had
managers tell me to my face "the company is here to take advantage of you"
and that they do.

Oh my bosses ARE making that kind of money. Otherwise explain to me how *3*
managers just recently purchased multi-million dollar homes in exclusive
beach front cities? Explain to me how they all drive Land Rovers, Porche
911s? Explain to me how one built a 60k home theater in his 5000 sq ft
house? Explain to me how one is having a yacht built? You don't do that kind
of stuff on a 90k to 120k salary.