Valid HTML

Discussion in 'HTML' started by newspost2000, Feb 1, 2007.

  1. newspost2000

    newspost2000 Guest

    This may seem like a silly question of which I already feel like I
    know the answer... I am a web developer and I am working with a
    Content Manager... I am trying to convince him why he should validate
    all of the html code that he writes as he publishes content to his
    Company's Site. This could be done by running pages through HTML
    Validator or HTML Tidy. He feels that if his pages render as he would
    expect through Firefox and IE, even if there are some missing closing
    tags or deprecated tags... that at least the browsers are forgiving
    enough so that it will not affect the presentation. He feels that
    validating the code will actually slow down his development and
    deployment time of content.

    I argue that it is really a method of best practices and it will
    further ensure the integrity of the code that it will work in an
    optimum inter operable way between OS's and different Browser Types
    for generations to come. I also argue that it should actually speed up
    development and deployment of content time because these tools can act
    as a pointer when your design is broken and you don't know why. I am
    looking to produce a more robust argument in order to get him on side.

    Can anyone out there give me other valid reasons that I can take back
    to him?
     
    newspost2000, Feb 1, 2007
    #1
    1. Advertising

  2. newspost2000

    Ed Mullen Guest

    newspost2000 wrote:
    > This may seem like a silly question of which I already feel like I
    > know the answer... I am a web developer and I am working with a
    > Content Manager... I am trying to convince him why he should validate
    > all of the html code that he writes as he publishes content to his
    > Company's Site. This could be done by running pages through HTML
    > Validator or HTML Tidy. He feels that if his pages render as he would
    > expect through Firefox and IE, even if there are some missing closing
    > tags or deprecated tags... that at least the browsers are forgiving
    > enough so that it will not affect the presentation. He feels that
    > validating the code will actually slow down his development and
    > deployment time of content.
    >
    > I argue that it is really a method of best practices and it will
    > further ensure the integrity of the code that it will work in an
    > optimum inter operable way between OS's and different Browser Types
    > for generations to come. I also argue that it should actually speed up
    > development and deployment of content time because these tools can act
    > as a pointer when your design is broken and you don't know why. I am
    > looking to produce a more robust argument in order to get him on side.
    >
    > Can anyone out there give me other valid reasons that I can take back
    > to him?
    >


    Might want to take a look at this:

    http://validator.w3.org/docs/why.html

    --
    Ed Mullen
    http://edmullen.net
    http://mozilla.edmullen.net
    http://abington.edmullen.net
    If you can survive death, you can probably survive anything.
     
    Ed Mullen, Feb 1, 2007
    #2
    1. Advertising

  3. > Might want to take a look at this:
    >
    > http://validator.w3.org/docs/why.html
    >

    "The strawman argument 'Validation means boring websites, and stifles
    creativity' / This is simply head-in-the-sand ignorance (indeed, it lies
    at the heart of the most spectacular hype-filled dot-com failures)."

    Which dot-com? What failure?
     
    Harlan Messinger, Feb 1, 2007
    #3
  4. newspost2000

    J.O. Aho Guest

    newspost2000 wrote:

    > Can anyone out there give me other valid reasons that I can take back
    > to him?


    Depending on contracts, he may not get fully payed if his code is broken, no
    matter how cool he does think he is.


    --

    //Aho
     
    J.O. Aho, Feb 1, 2007
    #4
  5. newspost2000

    Ben C Guest

    On 2007-02-01, newspost2000 <> wrote:
    [snip]
    > He feels that validating the code will actually slow down his
    > development and deployment time of content.


    This is where he's most wrong. Suppose he leaves out a close tag, or
    puts one too many. The browser he's testing on politely produces some
    sort of document tree without telling him there's anything wrong. It
    guesses his intentions using crude heuristics and may be wrong. He
    thinks he's looking at one document tree, in fact he is looking at
    another. The rendering doesn't look quite how he intended it to, so he
    starts fiddling with the styles to get it right. He infers from what he
    sees a mistaken understanding of the box model that follows him around.
    Errors and confusion multiply and propagate.

    Catching as many errors as you can as early as you can is the only way
    to do anything on a computer. Anyone will tell you that.
     
    Ben C, Feb 1, 2007
    #5
  6. newspost2000

    Ed Mullen Guest

    Harlan Messinger wrote:
    >> Might want to take a look at this:
    >>
    >> http://validator.w3.org/docs/why.html
    >>

    > "The strawman argument 'Validation means boring websites, and stifles
    > creativity' / This is simply head-in-the-sand ignorance (indeed, it lies
    > at the heart of the most spectacular hype-filled dot-com failures)."
    >
    > Which dot-com? What failure?


    Yeah, it would be nice to know what the writer had in mind. Although he
    (they) did use the plural, failures, so maybe it was intended as a
    general statement.

    --
    Ed Mullen
    http://edmullen.net
    http://mozilla.edmullen.net
    http://abington.edmullen.net
    You can't trust dogs to watch your food.
     
    Ed Mullen, Feb 1, 2007
    #6
  7. newspost2000

    David Segall Guest

    "newspost2000" <> wrote:

    >Can anyone out there give me other valid reasons that I can take back
    >to him?

    Does he use a spell checker? If so, why bother if it looks OK to him?
    If not, show him the spelling errors and point out that his work may
    be judged accordingly.
     
    David Segall, Feb 2, 2007
    #7
  8. newspost2000 wrote:

    > He feels that if his pages render as he would expect through Firefox and
    > IE


    Firefox 2, perhaps, but Firefox 3 is just around the corner. Microsoft
    have hinted that there will be an IE8, though probably not for some time.

    Alternatively, you could build some sort of clean-up filter into the CMS.

    --
    Toby A Inkster BSc (Hons) ARCS
    Contact Me ~ http://tobyinkster.co.uk/contact
    Geek of ~ HTML/CSS/Javascript/SQL/Perl/PHP/Python*/Apache/Linux

    * = I'm getting there!
     
    Toby A Inkster, Feb 2, 2007
    #8
  9. newspost2000

    Steve Pugh Guest

    On Feb 1, 7:28 pm, "newspost2000" <> wrote:
    > This may seem like a silly question of which I already feel like I
    > know the answer... I am a web developer and I am working with a
    > Content Manager... I am trying to convince him why he should validate
    > all of the html code that he writes as he publishes content to his
    > Company's Site.


    Why is the Content Manager writing HTML in the first place? The tools
    he's been provided with by the site developers to help him manage
    content should have been configured to only create valid HTML anyway.

    Steve
     
    Steve Pugh, Feb 2, 2007
    #9
  10. newspost2000

    Andy Dingley Guest

    On 1 Feb, 19:28, "newspost2000" <> wrote:

    > I am a web developer and I am working with a
    > Content Manager...


    I do wonder why a "content manager" even needs to care. Shouldn't they
    be worrying about content, and having a CMS take care of the
    implementation details like this?

    > I am trying to convince him why he should validate
    > all of the html code that he writes


    The W3C list is a good starting point.

    HTML / CSS design is hard. It's hard to make it work correctly when
    it's valid, even though it's quite well defined how the tools and
    browsers ought to behave. In contrast it's _not_ defined how they
    should behave with invalid code, so it's even harder to make things
    work this way. Valid code is an objective standard starting point for
    worrying about rendering.


    > He feels that if his pages render as he would
    > expect through Firefox and IE, even if there are some missing closing
    > tags or deprecated tags... that at least the browsers are forgiving


    They're forgiving, but not predictably forgiving. In many (most?)
    cases, they both have correct and identical behaviours with valid
    code, but varying error corrections after error. How can he possibly
    have _both_ "render as expected" in this case?

    > He feels that
    > validating the code will actually slow down his development


    Valid code is faster to author and deploy. Testing validity is a
    simple and objective test, easily carried out automatically. User
    testing under a variety of browsers is anything but.
     
    Andy Dingley, Feb 2, 2007
    #10
  11. On Feb 1, 2:28 pm, "newspost2000" <> wrote:
    > This may seem like a silly question of which I already feel like I
    > know the answer... I am a web developer and I am working with a
    > Content Manager...


    If you are working through a content manager, do you have control over
    the code? I have only worked with 2 CMSs and DMSs, but both controlled
    the code.
     
    Travis Newbury, Feb 2, 2007
    #11
  12. On Feb 2, 4:24 am, "Steve Pugh" <> wrote:
    > Why is the Content Manager writing HTML in the first place? The tools
    > he's been provided with by the site developers to help him manage
    > content should have been configured to only create valid HTML anyway.


    Having only used 2 CMSs I am not completely versed, but I believe most
    CMSs write the code for you.
     
    Travis Newbury, Feb 2, 2007
    #12
  13. newspost2000

    Steve Pugh Guest

    On Feb 2, 11:37 am, "Travis Newbury" <>
    wrote:
    > On Feb 2, 4:24 am, "Steve Pugh" <> wrote:
    >
    > > Why is the Content Manager writing HTML in the first place? The tools
    > > he's been provided with by the site developers to help him manage
    > > content should have been configured to only create valid HTML anyway.

    >
    > Having only used 2 CMSs I am not completely versed, but I believe most
    > CMSs write the code for you.


    >From the context of the OP it would seem that here Content Manager is

    referring to a person not a CMS. A CMS would be the sort of thing I
    was talking about when I said "the tools".

    Steve
     
    Steve Pugh, Feb 2, 2007
    #13
  14. newspost2000

    wayne Guest

    Travis Newbury wrote:
    > On Feb 2, 4:24 am, "Steve Pugh" <> wrote:
    >> Why is the Content Manager writing HTML in the first place? The tools
    >> he's been provided with by the site developers to help him manage
    >> content should have been configured to only create valid HTML anyway.

    >
    > Having only used 2 CMSs I am not completely versed, but I believe most
    > CMSs write the code for you.
    >


    I am using a CMS and have looked at many. The webmaster can change the
    produced html by changing the theme coding or default configuration.
    There are also mod files in the particular CMS I have settled on.

    --
    Wayne
    www.glenmeadows.us
    "I cannot imagine a God who rewards and punishes the objects of his
    creation, whose purposes are modeled after our own -- a God, in short,
    who is but a reflection of human frailty. Neither can I believe that the
    individual survives the death of his body, although feeble souls harbor
    such thoughts through fear or ridiculous egotism." [Einstein]
     
    wayne, Feb 4, 2007
    #14
  15. newspost2000 wrote :
    > This may seem like a silly question of which I already feel like I
    > know the answer... I am a web developer and I am working with a
    > Content Manager... I am trying to convince him why he should validate
    > all of the html code that he writes as he publishes content to his
    > Company's Site. This could be done by running pages through HTML
    > Validator or HTML Tidy. He feels that if his pages render as he would
    > expect through Firefox and IE, even if there are some missing closing
    > tags or deprecated tags... that at least the browsers are forgiving
    > enough so that it will not affect the presentation. He feels that
    > validating the code will actually slow down his development and
    > deployment time of content.


    Invite him to read:

    Using Web Standards in your Web Pages
    http://developer.mozilla.org/en/docs/Using_Web_Standards_in_your_Web_Pages

    Mozilla Web Author FAQ
    So my page isn’t standards-compliant, but good browsers should render
    pages as the author intended anyway!
    http://www.mozilla.org/docs/web-developer/faq.html#intentions

    My site doesn't work in x browser
    http://www.webdevout.net/articles/my-site-doesnt-work-in-x-browser









    >
    > I argue that it is really a method of best practices and it will
    > further ensure the integrity of the code that it will work in an
    > optimum inter operable way between OS's and different Browser Types
    > for generations to come.


    It's a good answer for starters.

    I also argue that it should actually speed up
    > development and deployment of content time


    He will have to learn how to develop according to standards. In the
    short term, that will take some of his time. In the long run, he will
    save development and deployment time.

    because these tools can act
    > as a pointer when your design is broken and you don't know why. I am
    > looking to produce a more robust argument in order to get him on side.
    >


    Then

    Using Web Standards in your Web Pages (Updated Dec. 2006)
    http://developer.mozilla.org/en/docs/Using_Web_Standards_in_your_Web_Pages


    > Can anyone out there give me other valid reasons that I can take back
    > to him?
    >


    Gérard
    --
    Using Web Standards in your Web Pages (Updated Dec. 2006)
    http://developer.mozilla.org/en/docs/Using_Web_Standards_in_your_Web_Pages
     
    =?windows-1252?Q?G=E9rard_Talbot?=, Feb 4, 2007
    #15
  16. On Feb 4, 10:30 am, wayne <> wrote:
    > > Having only used 2 CMSs I am not completely versed, but I believe most
    > > CMSs write the code for you.

    > I am using a CMS and have looked at many. The webmaster can change the
    > produced html by changing the theme coding or default configuration.
    > There are also mod files in the particular CMS I have settled on.


    And it produced validated code?
     
    Travis Newbury, Feb 5, 2007
    #16
    1. Advertising

Want to reply to this thread or ask your own question?

It takes just 2 minutes to sign up (and it's free!). Just click the sign up button to choose a username and then you can ask your own questions on the forum.
Similar Threads
  1. Thomas Due

    Valid HTML 4.01 or not?

    Thomas Due, Apr 20, 2004, in forum: ASP .Net
    Replies:
    2
    Views:
    353
    bruce barker
    Apr 20, 2004
  2. Alan Silver

    Can I write *valid* HTML with ASP.NET ?

    Alan Silver, Apr 27, 2004, in forum: ASP .Net
    Replies:
    7
    Views:
    667
    Alan Silver
    Apr 28, 2004
  3. Peter Hardy

    Ensuring users have provided valid html

    Peter Hardy, Dec 29, 2004, in forum: ASP .Net
    Replies:
    0
    Views:
    327
    Peter Hardy
    Dec 29, 2004
  4. Replies:
    3
    Views:
    464
    Danana
    Dec 14, 2005
  5. Replies:
    0
    Views:
    361
Loading...

Share This Page