validation seems wrong

[windandwaves]

Hi Richard, please try again .... there is a mouse-over effect, but
a link is also provided for those without javascript (and the
googles of this world).

OK.

[loads IE6]
[turns off active scripting (javascript)]
[loads page]
[takes screenshot]
[uploads screenshot]
http://users.bigpond.net.au/rf/screenshot/wind.jpg

No links. Nothing. Blank page (except for a map of NZ). Oh, I
sometimes see a title (or is it an alt) when I mouse over the top
island but that is pure and simple mystery meat navigation.

When I select all (Ctrl A) I see some boxes at the left hand side
that look as if they should contain links but they don't. I suspect
these are the divs you have wrapped around your links.

[checks source] I see there are some links in there but they have
display: hidden. I admit that this may get you into google (perhaps)
but it does not help those who have javascript disabled.

Hi Richard

Server is down, but I have done extensive work for those without JS.

Tomorrow, it should be up again and you will see that there is a great
browsing experience waiting for the JS-free folk out there.

Thanks for your input

- Nicolaas

 

[rf]

rf wrote:

Tomorrow, it should be up again and you will see that there is a great
browsing experience waiting for the JS-free folk out there.

If you have links in there (and lots of other stuff I assume) for non-JS
browsers then why are you going to the additional trouble of providing
javascript written links? Seems like you are forcing yourself to maintain
two sets of navigation.

Cheers
Richard.

 

[windandwaves]

If you have links in there (and lots of other stuff I assume) for
non-JS browsers then why are you going to the additional trouble of
providing javascript written links? Seems like you are forcing
yourself to maintain two sets of navigation.

Basically I did this:
hide stuff with CSS
use javascript to make it appear in a funky way

Now I do:
Show stuff
Hide stuff with JS
show it again in a funky way with JS

The JS is ornamental only so the people without JS get the boring stuff and
the people with JS get the funky stuff.

Cheers

Nicolaas

 

[rf]

Basically I did this:
hide stuff with CSS

I assume you mean "hide stuff with CSS decoration".

use javascript to make it appear in a funky way

Er, please define "funky way".

IIRC (your server is down right now) the only thing "funky" I saw was some
rather simple hover effects, all of which could be done with a little bit of
CSS.

In general, and IMHO, if you find yourself coding an onmouseover event
handler you really should be thinking: "hmmm, CSS".

Or does funky mean something more than this

Cheers
Richard.

 

[windandwaves]

I assume you mean "hide stuff with CSS decoration".

Er, please define "funky way".

IIRC (your server is down right now) the only thing "funky" I saw was
some rather simple hover effects, all of which could be done with a
little bit of CSS.

In general, and IMHO, if you find yourself coding an onmouseover event
handler you really should be thinking: "hmmm, CSS".

Or does funky mean something more than this

Cheers
Richard.

Have another look .... For example, if you move your mouse over the NZ map
and you go to Christchurch, Wellington, AKL or Dunedin then a little window
will pop-up with information (to be completed).

http://www.e-61rocket.co.nz/dealers.php

also, the letters and the menu appear from bottom-left.... and move up
(menu) and sideways (left) at such a speed that they both finish in exactly
the same time. That is funky in this particular case, it can get a whole
lot funkier though....

The client is only interested in the neo market, so it really does not
matter at all if it is not accessible for everyone, it is actually better
that way ;-) (please dont argue about this one ... I know).

Thanks for your comments

Nicolaas

 

[Els]

Have another look .... For example, if you move your mouse over the NZ map
and you go to Christchurch, Wellington, AKL or Dunedin then a little window
will pop-up with information (to be completed).

http://www.e-61rocket.co.nz/dealers.php

That is doable with CSS.
I take it that 'to be completed' includes visibly marked spots where
the cities are?

also, the letters and the menu appear from bottom-left.... and move up
(menu) and sideways (left) at such a speed that they both finish in exactly
the same time. That is funky in this particular case, it can get a whole
lot funkier though....

The fact that I have to wait for it isn't that funky imo.

The client is only interested in the neo market, so it really does not
matter at all if it is not accessible for everyone, it is actually better
that way ;-) (please dont argue about this one ... I know).

Okay

Thanks for your comments

Welcome ;-)

 

[windandwaves]

Els wrote:
........

That is doable with CSS.
I take it that 'to be completed' includes visibly marked spots where
the cities are?

But a lot easier with JS thank CSS and no dots on the cities. People know
where they are, just an information item that shows the contact details
(these are still coming). Having said that, I may miss something in CSS.
Dont forget that most people still use IE and that hover in IE is
problematic...;-)

The fact that I have to wait for it isn't that funky imo.

That is how the design team likes it... I like it to, it is different and
dynamic.

 

[Els]

Els wrote:
.......


But a lot easier with JS thank CSS and no dots on the cities. People know
where they are, just an information item that shows the contact details
(these are still coming).

The map is not gonna change? I would have had no clue whatsoever where
to hover, or even that I could hover, if you wouldn't have mentioned
it. IMO, people will see the page, and think something is not working.
It's not like they've never seen a page that doesn't do what it should
do, they'll just assume this is one of them. The spots to hover are
very very small. Without a visual indication, chances are you are
annoying people more than you want.

Having said that, I may miss something in CSS.
Dont forget that most people still use IE and that hover in IE is
problematic...;-)

Not on A elements, which is what you are using if I'm not mistaken.
Haven't looked at the code, but hovering changed the arrow into a
hand, I clicked, page changed. Aren't they links?

 

[windandwaves]

The map is not gonna change? I would have had no clue whatsoever where
to hover, or even that I could hover, if you wouldn't have mentioned
it. IMO, people will see the page, and think something is not working.
It's not like they've never seen a page that doesn't do what it should
do, they'll just assume this is one of them. The spots to hover are
very very small. Without a visual indication, chances are you are
annoying people more than you want.

It is meant that way, the client wants to make it hard for people ....
however, if you know where you live then all you need to do is to point at
where you live....

Not on A elements, which is what you are using if I'm not mistaken.
Haven't looked at the code, but hovering changed the arrow into a
hand, I clicked, page changed. Aren't they links?

They are image map links.

 

[rf]

rf wrote:

Have another look .... For example, if you move your mouse over the NZ map
and you go to Christchurch, Wellington, AKL or Dunedin then a little window
will pop-up with information (to be completed).

As I said: mystery meat navigation. You don't know where the link goes until
you activate it. In your case it is even worse. You don't know the link even
exists until you "find" it with the mose. For example I have been to NZ
several times but I still do not know exactly where Wellington is. I moused
around for about 15 seconds at the bottom of the north island before I came
across it. Bad.

All detailed here: http://webpagesthatsuck.com/ , left hand column, third
link down, although that site itself is getting rather badly disorganised.

http://www.e-61rocket.co.nz/dealers.php

also, the letters and the menu appear from bottom-left.... and move up
(menu) and sideways (left) at such a speed that they both finish in exactly
the same time. That is funky in this particular case, it can get a whole
lot funkier though....

Funky once. Interesting the second time. Just like all "DHTML" totally
boring the tenth time. After the tenth time I want the info NOW, not after a
second or two of pretty stuff. Sorry but that is MHO.

The client is only interested in the neo market, so it really does not
matter at all if it is not accessible for everyone, it is actually better
that way ;-) (please dont argue about this one ... I know).

As to your client and whatever a neo market is: I fail totally to see what
the site is about on the page you have provided. There is no content. I hope
there is more to come.

Features leads me to a picture of something like a hernia extracting
machine.

Secret is, well, secret, being totally blank.

dot dot dot.

Home is a 404.

You have also fallen into the very bad horizontal centering problem of
negative left hand margins (I presume). At canvas width of less than about
700 pixels the navigation slides out the left of the viewport, never to be
scrolled to again. This is totally unacceptable, regardless of how neo the
site is.

Sorry but I really *must* argue against this page. If this at the direction
of your client then client requires some education of the web in the real
world.

As to the non-JS option I actually find it nicer. No waiting.

Thanks for your comments

Cheers
Richard.

 

[rf]

It is meant that way, the client wants to make it hard for people ....

Why on earth would your client intentionally make it hard for people to buy
her espresso machines.

Would you put a maze in front of your shoe shops front door? A bouncer? A
street barricade?

Really, I mean, if I can't find where a dealer is (and no, it is not clear
that I have to search all over the map to find them) then it is far easier
for me to simply return to my google search reaults and go to the next site.

That next site will probably list their dealers in plain visible text in a
nice <ul>, for me to click on their URL. *They* won't obfuscate information
because *they* know that the best way to sell things is to make it so bloody
easy for the potential buyer that the transaction just happens as a matter
of course.

however, if you know where you live then all you need to do is to point at
where you live....

Yeah, right. I hyperthetically live in Queenstown. I miss the Dunedan link,
because I can't bloody find it, only finding the Chistchuch one.

I won't drive up to Christchurch. I might just drive over to Dunedan though
and I will use the *other* supplier of coffee machines in Dunedan.

By not explaining these things to your client you are doing them a
disservice.

Cheers
Richard.

 

[rf]

BTW:
http://users.bigpond.net.au/rf/screenshot/wind.jpg

Cheers
Richard.

 

[Frogleg]

The actual page is:

http://www.e-61rocket.co.nz/dealers.php

any other comments on this site are also greatly appreciated.

See

http://www.webpagesthatsuck.com/mysterymeatnavigation.html

 

[windandwaves]

See

http://www.webpagesthatsuck.com/mysterymeatnavigation.html

I understand where you are coming from, but un this particular case the
whole site actually uses this concept to let people explore a little. The
whole website is a teaser, not a seller. It is meant to look good and not to
provide information. You can argue with that, but it is a very successful
business, who have used this concept for many years with great success.

- Nicolaas

 

[Neredbojias]

With neither quill nor qualm, windandwaves quothed:

I understand where you are coming from, but un this particular case the
whole site actually uses this concept to let people explore a little. The
whole website is a teaser, not a seller. It is meant to look good and not to
provide information. You can argue with that, but it is a very successful
business, who have used this concept for many years with great success.

But if you're a hunk such as I, it's like wearing tight pants with too
small a zipper.

 

[windandwaves]

With neither quill nor qualm, windandwaves quothed:


But if you're a hunk such as I, it's like wearing tight pants with too
small a zipper.

Are you refering to the mystery meat navigation?

 

[Neredbojias]

With neither quill nor qualm, windandwaves quothed:

Are you refering to the mystery meat navigation?

He he he, touche! Bravo, I liked that.