[Very OT] Australia or Canada, which one is the best country for a geek?!?

[Houman Dunnil]

Hello folks,

Sorry for this *too off topic* email, but I think you can help me as I
believe you folks in the Ruby community are the smartest geeks I've
ever seen.

I'm planing to immigrate to Australia or Canada, but am not sure which
one is a better place for a hacker (As Paul Graham calls us).

What I'd like to know is, which country can help me to be a better
programmer? user groups, seminars, availability of resources and
things like these...

Thank you all in advance and sorry again for OT message,
- Houman Dunnil

 

[John Joyce]

Hello folks,

Sorry for this *too off topic* email, but I think you can help me as I
believe you folks in the Ruby community are the smartest geeks I've
ever seen.

I'm planing to immigrate to Australia or Canada, but am not sure which
one is a better place for a hacker (As Paul Graham calls us).

What I'd like to know is, which country can help me to be a better
programmer? user groups, seminars, availability of resources and
things like these...

Thank you all in advance and sorry again for OT message,
- Houman Dunnil

Depends on the city.

 

[James Britt]

What I'd like to know is, which country can help me to be a better
programmer? user groups, seminars, availability of resources and
things like these...

Which ever one has Silicon Valley.

 

[M. Edward (Ed) Borasky]

Hello folks,

Sorry for this *too off topic* email, but I think you can help me as I
believe you folks in the Ruby community are the smartest geeks I've
ever seen.

I'm planing to immigrate to Australia or Canada, but am not sure which
one is a better place for a hacker (As Paul Graham calls us).

What I'd like to know is, which country can help me to be a better
programmer? user groups, seminars, availability of resources and
things like these...

Thank you all in advance and sorry again for OT message,
- Houman Dunnil

Well ...

1. If you don't mind my asking, where do you live now and what's wrong
with it specific to being a hacker?

2. I suppose things have changed since then, but back in the mid 1980s I
worked for a company that had a couple of offices in Canada. Their two
sales/support analysts both quit in a six month period, and I filled in
for a couple of years, commuting up from Maryland when necessary. At one
point the subject of me transferring up there permanently was raised.

It turns out that Canada is very protective of their native talent. I
could fill in on a temporary basis, of course, but they had to advertise
the position for a full year and interview every Canadian citizen that
met the qualifications of the position. Only if they couldn't fill the
position with a Canadian citizen within a year would I have been able to
become a permanent resident.

I know there are Canadians on the list who migrated there from the USA
-- is it still that way, or have things changed?

3. I've never been to Australia so I don't know what the situation is there.

 

[John Carter]

I'm planing to immigrate to Australia or Canada, but am not sure which
one is a better place for a hacker (As Paul Graham calls us).

New Zealand.

Well, not entirely, salaries are less here, everything is smaller,...

But is a beautiful good wee country with outsized (relative to its
very small population speaking) high tech sector.


John Carter Phone : (64)(3) 358 6639
Tait Electronics Fax : (64)(3) 359 4632
PO Box 1645 Christchurch Email : (e-mail address removed)
New Zealand

 

[Jesper]

Hello,

I'm planing to immigrate to Australia or Canada, but am not sure which
one is a better place for a hacker (As Paul Graham calls us).

I don't know about Canada, but Australia is the best place in the world,
period.

As for hacker factor... Well, Perth in WA is one of the few cities in the
world that has a person developing hardware for the C64, which IMHO is a
sign or hacker-friendly climate! Ok, that's a bit far-fetched, but still:
Australia is amazing.

(for the record, I'm not Australian)

/ J

 

[Ilan Berci]

It turns out that Canada is very protective of their native talent. I
could fill in on a temporary basis, of course, but they had to advertise
the position for a full year and interview every Canadian citizen that
met the qualifications of the position. Only if they couldn't fill the
position with a Canadian citizen within a year would I have been able to
become a permanent resident.

It's quite ironic as many Canadian developers hold the same view when
working at positions within the US. I was a Canadian developer working
in the states from 1994-2002 under various visas and I often had to
justify my position to immigration officials from the stance as to why
an American couldn't fulfill the requirement.

Secondly, when applying for an H-1 from a TN, a posting of the job
requirement (for my job at that given time) had to be posted within at
least 3 public venues in order to allow an American to compete for said
position.

I don't want to give the impression that I am sore about this, I believe
every country has the right to protect it's work force.

ilan

 

[M. Edward (Ed) Borasky]

It's quite ironic as many Canadian developers hold the same view when
working at positions within the US. I was a Canadian developer working
in the states from 1994-2002 under various visas and I often had to
justify my position to immigration officials from the stance as to why
an American couldn't fulfill the requirement.

Yes ... another irony is that the Regional Manager my boss reported to
was Canadian and had the same problem in Boston.

Secondly, when applying for an H-1 from a TN, a posting of the job
requirement (for my job at that given time) had to be posted within at
least 3 public venues in order to allow an American to compete for said
position.

I don't want to give the impression that I am sore about this, I believe
every country has the right to protect it's work force.

It's not really protecting anything in the long run, but as Keynes said,
"in the long run, we are all dead." I wonder how it is where the OP
lives.

 

[M. Edward (Ed) Borasky]

.....

Aha! Canada. Ottawa (including the part called Kanata) is sometimes
called 'Silicon Valley North'. (Note: bias declared;
I'm a Canadian).

John.

That's where they wanted me to move -- Ottawa. The other thing Ottawa
has going for it is that the lakes and ponds freeze up solid enough to
drive trucks on.

Wait a minute ... is that a feature or a bug?

 

[Sharon Phillips]

I don't know about Canada, but Australia is the best place in the

world, period.

As for hacker factor... Well, Perth in WA is one of the few cities
in the world that has a person developing hardware for the C64,
which IMHO is a sign or hacker-friendly climate! Ok, that's a bit
far-fetched, but still: Australia is amazing.

(for the record, I'm not Australian)

I am though, and from Perth too but working in the capital for a few
years.
I'd thus like to say, without any bias whatsoever, that Perth is
pretty good. It's also a bit warmer than Canada

Jesper, Any Ruby based work in Perth I can look forward to when I
return?

Cheers,
Dave

 

[Mark T]

Wow.
This is such a good question.
Do you actually have to go to a country to hack/program/work there?
Is it a matter of payment? Lifestyle?
Attitude?
Business opportunity?
Sydney is a city of real-estate-first.
Predominantly, if you do not have this as 1st attitude, you do not fit in.
There is a predominance of market-obedience in Sydney.
Not sure if the two above are/how linked.
So Ruby is mostly Rails-driven in Sydney.
Less so in Melbourne.
More rain in Melbourne, less real estate frenzy.
Better contemplation environment. It appears (not from experience).
Academically, ANU in Canberra is #1. Rational atmosphere. A capital
built between population centres. (Not good IMHO).
All up the coast there are pockets of excellence.
People who can afford to make a small tera-firma-island & live there
can get good value.
In-cost has risen the recent years as there are some delightful spots.
Canada has a broader attitude base, It appears (also, not from experience).
Aus. is in the southern Hemisphere, takes longer to get here.
Travel in-out can cause 'air-sickness'... http://www.toxicairlines.com/
It is both a dumping ground for obsolete stuff & a testing ground for new stuff.
We are just about to leave a ten-year experiment of our
government-induced fiscal policy/philosophy of "Financially Fittest
via Financial Darwinism".
As you get to know the legacy of this you will find that most
'services' are now 'authorities'.
Most of these authorities are under-funded as the privatization has
left them 'leaner'.
The private contractors who have taken the punt are under the rules of
basic arithmetic & cannot spend on speculation. So services are
sometimes non-existent.
(Courses in Tafe an example).
Core infrastructure suffers from privatization syndrome. Most bulk
produce is trucked privately now. Trains stop at Orange in the Blue
Mountains.
Most of government action is knee-jerk. Out water for example
triggered an emergency response. Even when this gov. has been in
'position' to know for over ten years.
Indigenous affairs. Shameful.
Better weather than London.
Not many mountains. Mostly desert really.
Wherein lies one of the most fascinating conjunction of opposites.
The desert is an amazingly creative place.

Later,

Markt

 

[Kenneth McDonald]

It'll depend completely on the city and surrounding area. Canada is much
closer to the high-tech stuff in the US. But of course, if you can speak
the appropriate language(s), Australia is much closer to the high-tech
stuff in Asia.

As has been mentioned, there's a big (in Canadian terms) concentration
of high-tech around Ottawa. However, the real center of Canadian
cultural and commercial activity is Toronto (no, I'm not a Torontonian,
it's just the truth). If the high Quebec taxes are not a deterrent, I'd
suggest that Montreal is probably the optimal combination of high-tech
opportunity, cultural amenities, and general quality of life. Other
things being equal, it's probably where I'd go were I to move back to
Canada, Toronto would be a close second.

Vancouver is supposed to be a very lovely city; it isn't. I've lived
there, and architecturally Vancouver is somewhere between bland nouveau
West Coast and drop-dead graveled-yard ugly. The _surroundings_ are
beautiful, but even then, be prepared for very damp, gray, depressing
winters--if sunshine is important to you, don't move to Vancouver.

Canada's general social attitudes are much more European than American
(and the general Canadian attitude towards many current US policies is
probably best described as somewhere between amusement and disgust), so
if you're a strong libertarian-type hacker, you may not like that aspect
of Canada. (Personally, I like it quite a bit.)

Australia will be warmer. _Much_ warmer. And sunnier.


Hope this helps,
Ken

 

[Pete Yandell]

I'm planing to immigrate to Australia or Canada, but am not sure which
one is a better place for a hacker (As Paul Graham calls us).

Not sure of the answer, but I live in Melbourne and can give you a data
point:

The developer community here is excellent. We have monthly Ruby
developer meetings with about 30 people showing up on average, and last
month we had a Ruby Nuby Night which pulled 60-70 people without much
promotion. All the Ruby/Rails contractors here are finding plenty of work.

Melbourne is also (in my biased opinion) a lovely place to live. Low
cost of living, great culture, brilliant food, mild climate.

So you can mark me down as one happy Ruby developer from Australia.

Pete Yandell
http://notahat.com/

 

[EricF]

New Zealand.

Well, not entirely, salaries are less here, everything is smaller,...

But is a beautiful good wee country with outsized (relative to its
very small population speaking) high tech sector.


John Carter Phone : (64)(3) 358 6639
Tait Electronics Fax : (64)(3) 359 4632
PO Box 1645 Christchurch Email : (e-mail address removed)
New Zealand

How would someone be authorized to work in NZ if not a citizen?

Eric

 

[Mark T]

You would need a Virtual Working Visa.
Which, as far as I know do not yet exist.
If you're thinking of a Virtual Working contract.

I will soon ask an accountant if there is a known way to handle
off-shore efforts.
You can declare income in your tax, money paid into an account would
be 'visible'.
There may be a threshold for 'offshore contracting', if this is the term in use.

Just that I'd been wondering on this topic parallel to post.

Markt

 

[Robert Dober]

That's where they wanted me to move -- Ottawa. The other thing Ottawa
has going for it is that the lakes and ponds freeze up solid enough to
drive trucks on.

Wait a minute ... is that a feature or a bug? its a freeture

 

[Chad Perrin]

its a freeture

. . or a bugger.

 

[Robert Dober]

. . . or a bugger.

you win, but I am not playing in your league

 

[M. Edward (Ed) Borasky]

. . . or a bugger.

Actually, I was willing to transfer to Canada at the time, even given
the hassles of not being a "real Canadian". But the two offices were in
Ottawa and Calgary, both extremely cold in the winter. Of the two I
would have preferred Calgary, but I ended up transferring where I
*really* wanted to be -- World HQ in Oregon -- a year later.

And any time I *want* to get that cold, I can always visit a meat
locker. So I have had to settle for being an Honourary Canadian, and a
member of Canadians for Global Warming.
(http://www.templetons.com/brad/cfgw.jpg)

 

[Daniel Berger]

It'll depend completely on the city and surrounding area. Canada is much
closer to the high-tech stuff in the US. But of course, if you can speak
the appropriate language(s), Australia is much closer to the high-tech
stuff in Asia.

As has been mentioned, there's a big (in Canadian terms) concentration
of high-tech around Ottawa. However, the real center of Canadian
cultural and commercial activity is Toronto (no, I'm not a Torontonian,
it's just the truth). If the high Quebec taxes are not a deterrent, I'd
suggest that Montreal is probably the optimal combination of high-tech
opportunity, cultural amenities, and general quality of life. Other
things being equal, it's probably where I'd go were I to move back to
Canada, Toronto would be a close second.

Vancouver is supposed to be a very lovely city; it isn't. I've lived
there, and architecturally Vancouver is somewhere between bland nouveau
West Coast and drop-dead graveled-yard ugly. The _surroundings_ are
beautiful, but even then, be prepared for very damp, gray, depressing
winters--if sunshine is important to you, don't move to Vancouver.

Canada's general social attitudes are much more European than American
(and the general Canadian attitude towards many current US policies is
probably best described as somewhere between amusement and disgust), so
if you're a strong libertarian-type hacker, you may not like that aspect
of Canada. (Personally, I like it quite a bit.)

Australia will be warmer. _Much_ warmer. And sunnier.

Plus, you know, the beaches.

*nudge* *nudge*

Dan