W3C Validation

[Ray_Net]

Could you tell me how to modify my page:
http://home.scarlet.be/~ds367815/
to avoid the 3 errors when using:
http://validator.w3.org/

If i replace
<frameset cols="20%,80%" border=1 frameborder=1 framespacing=0>
by
<frameset cols="20%,80%">

There is no errors, then the frame separator rendered is bigger than a
fine wire. I prefer a fine wire as frame separator.

 

[Jukka K. Korpela]

Could you tell me how to modify my page:
http://home.scarlet.be/~ds367815/
to avoid the 3 errors when using:
http://validator.w3.org/

Just ignore the error messages.

If i replace
<frameset cols="20%,80%" border=1 frameborder=1 framespacing=0>
by
<frameset cols="20%,80%">

There is no errors, then the frame separator rendered is bigger than a
fine wire. I prefer a fine wire as frame separator.

Frames are defined in HTML 4.01 in a certain way that mostly, but not
entirely, reflects browser support to frames. Mostly by mistake, the
attributes for controlling appearance were defined incompletely. Nobody
is going to change HTML 4.01, so you just need to live with the error
messages when you validate.

Frames were popular in the middle 1990s. Nowadays most people use
something else. For a three-page site, I would build navigation by hand.

 

[Ray_Net]

Just ignore the error messages.


Frames are defined in HTML 4.01 in a certain way that mostly, but not
entirely, reflects browser support to frames. Mostly by mistake, the
attributes for controlling appearance were defined incompletely. Nobody
is going to change HTML 4.01, so you just need to live with the error
messages when you validate.

Frames were popular in the middle 1990s. Nowadays most people use
something else. For a three-page site, I would build navigation by hand.

By navigation by hand, you mean that when clicking on a menuc choice , i
need to send each time the complete page ?

 

[dorayme]

Could you tell me how to modify my page:
http://home.scarlet.be/~ds367815/
to avoid the 3 errors when using:
http://validator.w3.org/

If i replace
<frameset cols="20%,80%" border=1 frameborder=1 framespacing=0>
by
<frameset cols="20%,80%">

There is no errors, then the frame separator rendered is bigger than a
fine wire. I prefer a fine wire as frame separator.

Here is one way to get a nice thin line and keep the validator
happy. Remove all those attributes from the frameset element. But
put some in the frame element.

<frameset cols="20%,80%">

<frame name="menusub" frameborder="0" src="left.html">
<frame name="mainsub" frameborder="0" src="right.html">

</frameset>

and stick a right border on left.html (or maybe just a left
border on right.html).

What is rarely understood by people about these matters is the
importance getting it right is to the frames and framesets
themselves. Browsers do not much care, they just go along with
whatever, they show the most incredible lack of emotion. But
framesets and frames are sensitive creatures, highly emotional,
their only friend these days in a hostile world is the validator.

 

[Jukka K. Korpela]

By navigation by hand, you mean that when clicking on a menuc choice , i
need to send each time the complete page ?

Yes. Do you expect that to matter much for, say, a page with a total
size of 24 kilobytes, where 16 kilobytes consist of an image (which will
probably be cached by the browser)? I can’t believe that saving a few
dozen characters (used to set up the menu) would be crucial as compared
with all the accessibility problems of frames.

 

[MG]

By navigation by hand, you mean that when clicking on a menuc choice , i
need to send each time the complete page ?

Yes, send the complete page each time.

What happens if google takes a visitor to this page:
http://home.scarlet.be/~ds367815/PAGE-DETAILS.HTM

 

[Ray_Net]

Yes, send the complete page each time.

What happens if google takes a visitor to this page:
http://home.scarlet.be/~ds367815/PAGE-DETAILS.HTM

That's correct...

Did you know how can i place a fine wire vertically to separate the menu
part of the rest ?

 

[MG]

That's correct...

Did you know how can i place a fine wire vertically to separate the menu
part of the rest ?

What I am meaning to say is that you should not be using frames. Use <div>s
instead. You can style the <div> any way you want, including a fine wire.
And put the menu on every page so that you don't get situations like this:
http://home.scarlet.be/~ds367815/PAGE-DETAILS.HTM

 

[Denis McMahon]

Could you tell me how to modify my page:
http://home.scarlet.be/~ds367815/
to avoid the 3 errors when using:
http://validator.w3.org/

If i replace
<frameset cols="20%,80%" border=1 frameborder=1 framespacing=0> by
<frameset cols="20%,80%">

There is no errors, then the frame separator rendered is bigger than a
fine wire. I prefer a fine wire as frame separator.

Observations:

1) Changing element sizes triggering re-rendering as the mouse moves over
them is visually distracting and some people find it annoying - for
example the links in the menu section when the pointer is over
"professeurs". Try just using colour changes instead.

2) Do you really need a print this page button? Most browsers have a
print button on their toolbar already, you're duplicating existing
functionality.

3) The mixture of centered and left aligned text on some of the pages is
not easy on the eye.

4) Use a single style sheet. Also, if your server supports it, use server
side includes to include common blocks.

5) Contact details that are shown on every page normally go at the bottom
of the document.

Rgds

Denis McMahon

 

[Neil Gould]

Could you tell me how to modify my page:
http://home.scarlet.be/~ds367815/
to avoid the 3 errors when using:
http://validator.w3.org/

If i replace
<frameset cols="20%,80%" border=1 frameborder=1 framespacing=0>
by
<frameset cols="20%,80%">

There is no errors, then the frame separator rendered is bigger than a
fine wire. I prefer a fine wire as frame separator.

Presuming that you just want to solve your fine-line issue, an easy way is
to not define the border line at all in the frameset, but instead use a
"border-right: 1px;" style on the left-hand menu page.

 

[Ray_Net]

What I am meaning to say is that you should not be using frames. Use <div>s
instead. You can style the <div> any way you want, including a fine wire.
And put the menu on every page so that you don't get situations like this:
http://home.scarlet.be/~ds367815/PAGE-DETAILS.HTM

I fully agree with you - However in a first approach i did not realise
how i can have a fine vertical bar between the page-menu on the left and
the page-text on the right using <div>
Could someone give me a clue ?

 

[Ray_Net]

Observations:

1) Changing element sizes triggering re-rendering as the mouse moves over
them is visually distracting and some people find it annoying - for
example the links in the menu section when the pointer is over
"professeurs". Try just using colour changes instead.

2) Do you really need a print this page button? Most browsers have a
print button on their toolbar already, you're duplicating existing
functionality.

3) The mixture of centered and left aligned text on some of the pages is
not easy on the eye.

4) Use a single style sheet. Also, if your server supports it, use server
side includes to include common blocks.

5) Contact details that are shown on every page normally go at the bottom
of the document.

Thanks for the valuable remarks.

 

[Ray_Net]

Presuming that you just want to solve your fine-line issue, an easy way is
to not define the border line at all in the frameset, but instead use a
"border-right: 1px;" style on the left-hand menu page.

You are true, but reading all the intervention, i want to *not* use the
frames. In that case, i did not know how to get a vertical fine wire
between left and right part of the page , perhaps creating a table with
3 rows, with no borders except the center one, but this approach ends
with 2 vertical wires instead of 1.

 

[Neil Gould]

You are true, but reading all the intervention, i want to *not* use
the frames. In that case, i did not know how to get a vertical fine
wire between left and right part of the page , perhaps creating a
table with 3 rows, with no borders except the center one, but this
approach ends with 2 vertical wires instead of 1.

Well, there are some who just don't see any value to frames, and there are
other ways to do most of the things that frames have been used for in the
past, but that doesn't invalidate any and all uses of frames.

If you dont't require frames, using a pair of <div>s as has been previously
suggested would be preferable to a table for several reasons. Do a search on
creating a two-column layout using CSS. It's not complicated for simple
static pages, and can do exactly what you want.

 

[Beauregard T. Shagnasty]

I fully agree with you - However in a first approach i did not realise
how i can have a fine vertical bar between the page-menu on the left and
the page-text on the right using <div> Could someone give me a clue ?

<div id="left" style="border-right: 1px solid black;">
Menu goes here...
</div>

This should help as well:
<http://htmldog.com/guides/cssadvanced/layout/>

 

[dorayme]

Presuming that you just want to solve your fine-line issue, an easy way is
to not define the border line at all in the frameset, but instead use a
"border-right: 1px;" style on the left-hand menu page.

Just not defining borders in the frameset still leaves quite a
big doubled border in some modern browsers. See my post of Dec 4
in this thread.

 

[Neil Gould]

Just not defining borders in the frameset still leaves quite a
big doubled border in some modern browsers. See my post of Dec 4
in this thread.

I see a message from you dated Dec 3, but not one for Dec 4 on this thread.
Could be the server I'm using to access this group. Your Dec 3 message
proposes a very similar solution to what I've suggested, above, and the
specific addition of "...frameborder="0" for each of the frame files is a
good suggestion!

 

[dorayme]

I see a message from you dated Dec 3, but not one for Dec 4 on this thread.
Could be the server I'm using to access this group. Your Dec 3 message
proposes a very similar solution to what I've suggested, above, and the
specific addition of "...frameborder="0" for each of the frame files is a
good suggestion!

Well that must be the one I am referring to. It was the post
which addressed his question of how to use his frames markup but
have it validate, and have a thin border.

 

[Ray_Net]

Could you tell me how to modify my page:
http://home.scarlet.be/~ds367815/
to avoid the 3 errors when using:
http://validator.w3.org/

If i replace
<frameset cols="20%,80%" border=1 frameborder=1 framespacing=0>
by
<frameset cols="20%,80%">

There is no errors, then the frame separator rendered is bigger than a
fine wire. I prefer a fine wire as frame separator.

THANKS for all your suggestions and consels.
I decide to not use frames .. This is what i have done so far (needs
improvements): http://home.scarlet.be/~ds367815/INDEX.HTM

 

[MG]

THANKS for all your suggestions and consels.

I decide to not use frames .. This is what i have done so far (needs
improvements): http://home.scarlet.be/~ds367815/INDEX.HTM

Two suggestions:

1)
You still have a frameset doctype. Change the doctype to:

<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.01//EN"
"http://www.w3.org/TR/html4/strict.dtd">


2)
Run your page through the validator at
http://validator.w3.org/
and fix the errors shown there.