want to begin C

Discussion in 'C Programming' started by pandit, Aug 20, 2007.

  1. pandit

    pandit Guest

    I started to learn C++ from my friend's book, C++ Primer. in the
    beginning it went good but after i finished 5 chapters it became
    complicated. C++ seems like a language with too many features and
    functions and right now it seems too complicated and bloated for my
    brain. i just want to become a Hacker and no other special intentions
    for learning a language. i use BLAG Linux at my home computer (as
    advised in "How to Become a Hacker" by Eric S. Raymond).

    C seems like an essential language of Hacking and searching the
    archives tells me K&R2 is the book to go. i found the mentioning of
    K.N. King too but can't find it in on any online Indian book store.
    anyway K&R2 is pretty cheap for a poor guy like me (just 100 rupees)
    and i am not a beginning programmer since i have learnt some C++
    already.

    any advice before i start to walk on the path of a Hacker.

    [NOTE: the views i expressed on C++ are purely my personal]
    pandit, Aug 20, 2007
    #1
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  2. pandit

    santosh Guest

    pandit wrote:

    > I started to learn C++ from my friend's book, C++ Primer. in the
    > beginning it went good but after i finished 5 chapters it became
    > complicated. C++ seems like a language with too many features and
    > functions and right now it seems too complicated and bloated for my
    > brain. i just want to become a Hacker and no other special intentions
    > for learning a language. i use BLAG Linux at my home computer (as
    > advised in "How to Become a Hacker" by Eric S. Raymond).


    Hackers tend to think independently, not ape the advice of someone else.

    > C seems like an essential language of Hacking and searching the
    > archives tells me K&R2 is the book to go. i found the mentioning of
    > K.N. King too but can't find it in on any online Indian book store.
    > anyway K&R2 is pretty cheap for a poor guy like me (just 100 rupees)
    > and i am not a beginning programmer since i have learnt some C++
    > already.
    >
    > any advice before i start to walk on the path of a Hacker.


    Becoming skilled in programming and system administration is undoubtedly
    tough and a long road. Take it one step at a time. As you said, C is an
    ubiquitous language used at the system level, and K&R2 is an excellent
    place to start. I also suggest learning at least shell scripting and Perl,
    since these two are used all over the place in UNIX type systems. After
    K&R, there are more advanced books like C Unleashed, C Interfaces and
    Implementations etc. Concentrate on basic algorithms and the art of
    decomposing a complex problem into simple, semi-independent steps. Learning
    an assembler language is always very useful to get a machine level
    perspective. Also don't miss reading books like Software Engineering by
    Sommerville, Code Complete by McConnell and of course The Art of Computer
    Programming by Knuth.

    Programming is a never ending journey since the, even as you learn more, the
    field advances. As far as languages go, apart from C, as I said earlier,
    shell, Perl, assembler and Python are good choices. Unless you're forced
    to, avoid proprietary languages like C#, VB etc. They'll just waste your
    time.

    The best advice is to take everything a step at a time and think about what
    you're learning. It's also critical to practise or try each concept, with
    example programs or pseudo-code, before moving on.
    santosh, Aug 20, 2007
    #2
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  3. pandit

    Richard Bos Guest

    pandit <> wrote:

    > any advice before i start to walk on the path of a Hacker.


    Consider this: the more you look for the Path, the further you stray
    from it.

    Richard
    Richard Bos, Aug 20, 2007
    #3
  4. On Mon, 20 Aug 2007 12:29:38 +0000, pandit wrote:

    > I started to learn C++ from my friend's book, C++ Primer. in the
    > beginning it went good but after i finished 5 chapters it became
    > complicated. C++ seems like a language with too many features and
    > functions and right now it seems too complicated and bloated for my
    > brain.


    No kidding! To steal a metaphor, if bloatedness were a brick, C++
    would be the Great Wall of China.
    Ivar Rosquist, Aug 20, 2007
    #4
  5. Ivar Rosquist wrote:
    > On Mon, 20 Aug 2007 12:29:38 +0000, pandit wrote:
    >
    >> I started to learn C++ from my friend's book, C++ Primer. in the
    >> beginning it went good but after i finished 5 chapters it became
    >> complicated. C++ seems like a language with too many features and
    >> functions and right now it seems too complicated and bloated for my
    >> brain.

    >
    > No kidding! To steal a metaphor, if bloatedness were a brick, C++
    > would be the Great Wall of China.
    >

    I'm not huge fan of the language (mostly because I've had to maintain
    code created during the great March To Standardization) but it was
    created to solve a problem that many languages of the day were poor at
    doing.

    That is, C++ was intended to solve completely different problems than C
    currently does, and that "bloat" we are talking about is more about
    larger-scale application maintenance using standard frameworks.

    Not a finely tuned hacker tool, but it was never intended as such.
    --
    clvrmnky <mailto:>

    Direct replies will be blacklisted. Replace "spamtrap" with my name to
    contact me directly.
    Clever Monkey, Aug 20, 2007
    #5
  6. pandit

    Serve Lau Guest

    "Richard Bos" <> wrote in message
    news:4all.nl...
    > pandit <> wrote:
    >
    >> any advice before i start to walk on the path of a Hacker.

    >
    > Consider this: the more you look for the Path, the further you stray
    > from it.


    I was thinking something like that as well but oh well when he doesnt go as
    fast as he wishes and gets bored so be it :)
    It wont hurt him learning about linux and coding
    Serve Lau, Aug 20, 2007
    #6
  7. pandit

    Richard Guest

    Clever Monkey <> writes:

    > Ivar Rosquist wrote:
    >> On Mon, 20 Aug 2007 12:29:38 +0000, pandit wrote:
    >>
    >>> I started to learn C++ from my friend's book, C++ Primer. in the
    >>> beginning it went good but after i finished 5 chapters it became
    >>> complicated. C++ seems like a language with too many features and
    >>> functions and right now it seems too complicated and bloated for my
    >>> brain.

    >>
    >> No kidding! To steal a metaphor, if bloatedness were a brick,
    >> C++ would be the Great Wall of China.
    >>

    > I'm not huge fan of the language (mostly because I've had to maintain
    > code created during the great March To Standardization) but it was
    > created to solve a problem that many languages of the day were poor at
    > doing.
    >
    > That is, C++ was intended to solve completely different problems than
    > C currently does, and that "bloat" we are talking about is more about
    > larger-scale application maintenance using standard frameworks.


    And that is exactly where C++ screws up IMO. At the end of the day
    frameworks designed and developed in C++ end up having another
    "language" on the language which can often be a nightmare.

    I always called it the bath time test. Try printing out some C++ and
    reading the code in the bath. You better to hell know the overloading
    and class hierarchies and the privates/publics back to front or you will
    never understand a thing.


    >
    > Not a finely tuned hacker tool, but it was never intended as such.


    --
    Richard, Aug 20, 2007
    #7
  8. Richard wrote:
    > Clever Monkey <> writes:
    >
    >> Ivar Rosquist wrote:
    >>> On Mon, 20 Aug 2007 12:29:38 +0000, pandit wrote:
    >>>
    >>>> I started to learn C++ from my friend's book, C++ Primer. in the
    >>>> beginning it went good but after i finished 5 chapters it became
    >>>> complicated. C++ seems like a language with too many features and
    >>>> functions and right now it seems too complicated and bloated for my
    >>>> brain.
    >>> No kidding! To steal a metaphor, if bloatedness were a brick,
    >>> C++ would be the Great Wall of China.
    >>>

    >> I'm not huge fan of the language (mostly because I've had to maintain
    >> code created during the great March To Standardization) but it was
    >> created to solve a problem that many languages of the day were poor at
    >> doing.
    >>
    >> That is, C++ was intended to solve completely different problems than
    >> C currently does, and that "bloat" we are talking about is more about
    >> larger-scale application maintenance using standard frameworks.

    >
    > And that is exactly where C++ screws up IMO. At the end of the day
    > frameworks designed and developed in C++ end up having another
    > "language" on the language which can often be a nightmare.
    >
    > I always called it the bath time test. Try printing out some C++ and
    > reading the code in the bath. You better to hell know the overloading
    > and class hierarchies and the privates/publics back to front or you will
    > never understand a thing.
    >

    I good yardstick, to be sure. I hardly have enough exposure to the
    language to form a real opinion, but I recall that once you got the
    gestalt of what STL and/or super classes one was leveraging you stop
    caring about the implementation and concentrate on local code problems,
    which are easy to soak in the bath.

    That is, I do at least 80% of my work in Java. To solve problems in
    Java, I don't have to care about anything in java.lang, or even in most
    of our components, classes or implementations. Decent code will be set
    up for good code reuse and logical subclassing. For any sufficiently
    large application it helps to have a tool that lets you navigate these
    relationships, but I had to do this for large C apps in the past anyway.

    I mean, conceptually, a pointer to a selection of structs is just as
    opaque as some super-class. I find once I get an idea of what the local
    code is doing with these "objects" the rest is just reading source to
    find out i.) what the hell the original coder meant and, ii.) where the
    actual bug might be. Both of these are bath-worthy projects!

    At any rate, learning how to code, read code and debug is a hackerish
    skill one can learn with any sort of toolset. C is an ideal tool to
    have in one's hacker kit, but those skills are generally transferable
    and re-usable.

    I personally like to learn a new (artificial) language once a year, and
    often deliberately choose one that is outside of my day-to-day oeuvre.
    I find it helps keep me sharper.
    --
    clvrmnky <mailto:>

    Direct replies will be blacklisted. Replace "spamtrap" with my name to
    contact me directly.
    Clever Monkey, Aug 20, 2007
    #8
  9. pandit

    Al Balmer Guest

    On Mon, 20 Aug 2007 18:21:52 +0530, santosh <>
    wrote:

    >> I started to learn C++ from my friend's book, C++ Primer. in the
    >> beginning it went good but after i finished 5 chapters it became
    >> complicated. C++ seems like a language with too many features and
    >> functions and right now it seems too complicated and bloated for my
    >> brain. i just want to become a Hacker and no other special intentions
    >> for learning a language. i use BLAG Linux at my home computer (as
    >> advised in "How to Become a Hacker" by Eric S. Raymond).

    >
    >Hackers tend to think independently, not ape the advice of someone else.


    That's silly. A hacker who isn't willing to learn from other people's
    experience won't get very far. Maybe he should forgo reading K&R, and
    posting to c.l.c., as well? If you have a particular reason not to
    follow Raymond's advice, say so.

    --
    Al Balmer
    Sun City, AZ
    Al Balmer, Aug 20, 2007
    #9
  10. pandit

    user923005 Guest

    On Aug 20, 5:29 am, pandit <> wrote:
    > I started to learn C++ from my friend's book, C++ Primer. in the
    > beginning it went good but after i finished 5 chapters it became
    > complicated. C++ seems like a language with too many features and
    > functions and right now it seems too complicated and bloated for my
    > brain. i just want to become a Hacker and no other special intentions
    > for learning a language. i use BLAG Linux at my home computer (as
    > advised in "How to Become a Hacker" by Eric S. Raymond).


    Personally, I like C++, but I think it is a difficult first computer
    language to learn.

    > C seems like an essential language of Hacking and searching the
    > archives tells me K&R2 is the book to go. i found the mentioning of
    > K.N. King too but can't find it in on any online Indian book store.
    > anyway K&R2 is pretty cheap for a poor guy like me (just 100 rupees)
    > and i am not a beginning programmer since i have learnt some C++
    > already.
    >
    > any advice before i start to walk on the path of a Hacker.


    http://www.plethora.net/~seebs/faqs/hacker.html
    http://www.ee.ryerson.ca/~elf/hack/
    HTH

    > [NOTE: the views i expressed on C++ are purely my personal]
    user923005, Aug 20, 2007
    #10
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