Warning to newbies

Discussion in 'C Programming' started by spinoza1111, Jan 31, 2010.

  1. spinoza1111

    spinoza1111 Guest

    Beware of certain buzzwords including "sequence points" and "trap
    representation".

    They have no scientific content, and instead were developed to cover
    up the inadequacies and very impossibility of "standardizing" a toxic
    waste dump (the C programming language and its dialects).

    Their use indicates intellectual fraud.

    A "sequence point" is when a "standard" C compiler "must" evaluate.
    The existence of the buzzword is a cover up of the fact that the
    standards committees consisted of people more concerned with vendor
    profits who had no remit to determine a standard semantics and a
    rational evaluation order, because they were afraid of discommoding
    vendors.

    A "trap representation" is a pointer in some sort of theological state
    of sin that points **** knows where. The "C standardization"
    philosophy is that we should close our eyes in holy dread and weave a
    circle 'round it thrice when in fact in calculating a pointer, an
    intermediate value might not be a legal pointer. The simplest case is
    the fact that you usually don't want to point at memory location 0.

    C standardization is pseudo science and snake oil. Please don't get
    taken in.
     
    spinoza1111, Jan 31, 2010
    #1
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  2. spinoza1111

    jacob navia Guest

    spinoza1111 a écrit :
    > Beware of certain buzzwords including "sequence points" and "trap
    > representation".
    >
    > They have no scientific content, and instead were developed to cover
    > up the inadequacies and very impossibility of "standardizing" a toxic
    > waste dump (the C programming language and its dialects).


    Idiot
     
    jacob navia, Jan 31, 2010
    #2
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  3. Subject: Warning to newbies

    On 31 Jan, 11:15, spinoza1111 <> wrote:

    > Beware of certain buzzwords including "sequence points" and "trap
    > representation".


    to those who aren't aware of it spinoza has some sort of axe to grind.
    A troll in other words.

    > They have no scientific content, and instead were developed to cover
    > up the inadequacies and very impossibility of "standardizing" a toxic
    > waste dump (the C programming language and its dialects).


    these terms are well defined by the C standard. If you interested in
    their defininition then look them up in the standard. If you are
    interested in their practical value then check out out past posts in
    this newsgroup or ask!

    [rougly speaking:
    sequence point: a point in the source code where the compution must be
    completed. In between sequence points there may be a choice as to the
    order in which various sub-computions can be doen. This gives
    implementors freedom to reorganise code foroptimisation purposes.

    trap value: an illegal value. Reading such a value may terminate the
    program. TVs are rare in integer formats but many floating point
    formats support bit patterns that are not actaully floating point
    numbers (infinities and NaN (not a number) values.
    }
     
    Nick Keighley, Jan 31, 2010
    #3
  4. On Jan 31, 1:15 pm, spinoza1111 <> wrote:
    > Beware of certain buzzwords including "sequence points" and "trap
    > representation".
    >
    > They have no scientific content, and instead were developed to cover
    > up the inadequacies and very impossibility of "standardizing" a toxic
    > waste dump (the C programming language and its dialects).
    >
    > Their use indicates intellectual fraud.
    >
    > A "sequence point" is


    <snip>

    > A "trap representation" is


    <snip>

    Please refrain from using the aforementioned expressions, as you risk
    being held liable to charges of crimes against public disorder,
    irrational thought infringement, newsgroup trespassing, verbal
    assault, code you have never written but fails to (inter-)operate
    anyway, resistance against or obstruction of common sense, unlicensed
    possession of buzzwords, brain abuse and molestation, keyboard misuse,
    unlawful detention of newbies, possession of illegal arms,
    contributing to delinquency of non-regulars, stalking, negligence and
    other forms of not knowing what the **** you're talking about,
    alternate reality definitions of nonexistent expressions which invoke
    undefined cosmic behaviour under the C0x99 Standard (SI, not ISO),
    first degree brain cell murder and crimes against humanity as defined
    by the Hague Statute of the ULD and outlined in the Proclamation of
    Inherent Powers. Do note that all affected parties are hereby
    considered being served an implied notice of aforementioned
    activities, and all pertaining actions shall be implemented in the
    pursuance of the related objectives, most notably Ownage of the
    Defendant (aka. spinoza1111). You shall also receive formal written
    announcement communicating scheduling information about your
    involvement in said offenses. The original notice has already been
    filed (against all parties involved) with Mr. Syndrome, Internal
    Intern and expert on the field of Hypothetical Malpractice of the ULD,
    A.I. Chains, Congressional Liaison and expert on Hogwartsian Law,
    Vandal and Lurker Profiling, as well as Department Tail, Dr.
    Happytimes, Moral Bankruptcy Law Specialist. Concluding, I remark you
    have the right to abandon your keyboard immediately and the obligation
    to remain silent, as anything you say slash type slash unsuccessfully
    try to communicate can and will be used against you in accordance to
    Usenet Law.
     
    Michael Foukarakis, Jan 31, 2010
    #4
  5. On Sun, 31 Jan 2010 12:19:37 +0100, jacob navia <>
    wrote:

    >spinoza1111 a écrit :
    >> Beware of certain buzzwords including "sequence points" and "trap
    >> representation".
    >>
    >> They have no scientific content, and instead were developed to cover
    >> up the inadequacies and very impossibility of "standardizing" a toxic
    >> waste dump (the C programming language and its dialects).

    >
    >Idiot



    Of course you're correct, but:

    On Mon, 04 Jan 2010 12:07:50 +0100, jacob navia <>
    wrote:
    >Colonel Harlan Sanders a écrit :
    >[snip off topic polemic]
    >Look, here is a C group.
    >You do not like somebody?
    >Use private email, blog, whatever.
    >You do not like spinoza111?
    >DO NOT ANSWER.
    >Let's discuss about C ok?


    Try taking your own advice, rather than handing it our so freely and,
    may I say, obnoxiously.

    Nilges was clearly laying troll bait, carefully crafted to prod his
    usual nemeses into engaging with him.
     
    Colonel Harlan Sanders, Jan 31, 2010
    #5
  6. spinoza1111

    Seebs Guest

    On 2010-01-31, Richard Heathfield <> wrote:
    > That isn't what a troll is. A troll is someone who posts deliberately
    > provocative material, the objective being to incite a hostile reaction
    > for the heck of it. A true troll has no axe to grind, just a newsgroup
    > to pester.


    As someone who spent years reading alt.religion.kibology, I'd like to
    point out that, much like "hacker", the term has more than one sense.
    Trolling is a kind of fishing; instead of throwing a baited hook where
    you think the fish are, you move your boat around with a baited hook
    in the water behind you, and some fish go for it because it's moving.

    Generically, "trolling" can be used for any activity designed to provoke
    *any* kind of responses, as long as the goal is the responses in and of
    themselves. Asking a question because you want to know the answer isn't
    trolling; asking a question because it would amuse you if people answered
    it probably is.

    It is worth noting that, in some cases, trolling is directed not at a
    newsgroup, but at a specific person, and that a skilled troll can be an
    asset to a newsgroup or forum. On some of the web-based bulletin boards
    I hang around on, I've seen trolls do a very good job of dealing with
    obnoxious nuisance users, by posting things that everyone else would ignore
    but which would tie the nuisance users up for hours -- this having the
    convenient effect of, say, keeping the nuisances from harassing people who
    were actually hurt or offended by their behavior.

    That works better on a forum where threads you aren't interested in don't
    have to be "skipped", you just don't navigate to them.

    On the other hand, many users can enjoy a successful and interesting troll
    played for comedy value. Back in the day, there was a long-running thread
    about whether a given number was prime; all I recall is that it was about
    twelve digits, the last of which was an even number. The various pseudo-math
    offered to "prove" that this number was prime was funny. (I still have fond
    memories of discovering that, yes, the Internet contains people who can be
    convinced that ATMs print money rather than having a supply of pre-printed
    money. The best part was someone who worked at a bank, and testified that
    his job included putting fresh rolls of paper in the ATM. When someone
    said those were for receipts, a third party jumped in and said "Don't be
    ridiculous, those are preprinted.")

    -s
    --
    Copyright 2010, all wrongs reversed. Peter Seebach /
    http://www.seebs.net/log/ <-- lawsuits, religion, and funny pictures
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fair_Game_(Scientology) <-- get educated!
     
    Seebs, Jan 31, 2010
    #6
  7. spinoza1111

    spinoza1111 Guest

    On Feb 1, 1:12 am, Colonel Harlan Sanders <> wrote:
    > On Sun, 31 Jan 2010 12:19:37 +0100, jacob navia <>
    > wrote:
    >
    > >spinoza1111a écrit :
    > >> Beware of certain buzzwords including "sequence points" and "trap
    > >> representation".

    >
    > >> They have no scientific content, and instead were developed to cover
    > >> up the inadequacies and very impossibility of "standardizing" a toxic
    > >> waste dump (the C programming language and its dialects).

    >
    > >Idiot

    >
    > Of course you're correct, but:
    >
    > On Mon, 04 Jan 2010 12:07:50 +0100, jacob navia <>
    > wrote:
    >
    > >Colonel Harlan Sanders a écrit :
    > >[snip off topic polemic]
    > >Look, here is a C group.
    > >You do not like somebody?
    > >Use private email, blog, whatever.
    > >You do not like spinoza111?
    > >DO NOT ANSWER.
    > >Let's discuss about C  ok?

    >
    > Try  taking your own advice, rather than handing it our so freely and,
    > may I say, obnoxiously.
    >
    > Nilges was clearly laying troll bait,  carefully crafted to prod  his
    > usual nemeses into engaging with him.


    No, I'm discussing C. I suggest you do so as well.
     
    spinoza1111, Jan 31, 2010
    #7
  8. spinoza1111

    spinoza1111 Guest

    On Feb 1, 1:57 am, Seebs <> wrote:
    > On 2010-01-31, Richard Heathfield <> wrote:
    >
    > > That isn't what a troll is. A troll is someone who posts deliberately
    > > provocative material, the objective being to incite a hostile reaction
    > > for the heck of it. A true troll has no axe to grind, just a newsgroup
    > > to pester.

    >
    > As someone who spent years reading alt.religion.kibology, I'd like to
    > point out that, much like "hacker", the term has more than one sense.
    > Trolling is a kind of fishing; instead of throwing a baited hook where
    > you think the fish are, you move your boat around with a baited hook
    > in the water behind you, and some fish go for it because it's moving.
    >
    > Generically, "trolling" can be used for any activity designed to provoke
    > *any* kind of responses, as long as the goal is the responses in and of
    > themselves.  Asking a question because you want to know the answer isn't
    > trolling; asking a question because it would amuse you if people answered
    > it probably is.
    >
    > It is worth noting that, in some cases, trolling is directed not at a
    > newsgroup, but at a specific person, and that a skilled troll can be an
    > asset to a newsgroup or forum.  On some of the web-based bulletin boards
    > I hang around on, I've seen trolls do a very good job of dealing with
    > obnoxious nuisance users, by posting things that everyone else would ignore
    > but which would tie the nuisance users up for hours -- this having the
    > convenient effect of, say, keeping the nuisances from harassing people who
    > were actually hurt or offended by their behavior.
    >
    > That works better on a forum where threads you aren't interested in don't
    > have to be "skipped", you just don't navigate to them.
    >
    > On the other hand, many users can enjoy a successful and interesting troll
    > played for comedy value.  Back in the day, there was a long-running thread
    > about whether a given number was prime; all I recall is that it was about
    > twelve digits, the last of which was an even number.  The various pseudo-math
    > offered to "prove" that this number was prime was funny.  (I still have fond
    > memories of discovering that, yes, the Internet contains people who can be
    > convinced that ATMs print money rather than having a supply of pre-printed
    > money.  The best part was someone who worked at a bank, and testified that
    > his job included putting fresh rolls of paper in the ATM.  When someone
    > said those were for receipts, a third party jumped in and said "Don't be
    > ridiculous, those are preprinted.")
    >
    > -s
    > --
    > Copyright 2010, all wrongs reversed.  Peter Seebach / ://www.seebs.net/log/<-- lawsuits, religion, and funny pictureshttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fair_Game_(Scientology) <-- get educated!


    Why is it, Peter, that you can only write coherently when you're
    mocking other people?
     
    spinoza1111, Jan 31, 2010
    #8
  9. spinoza1111

    Eric Sosman Guest

    On 1/31/2010 11:11 AM, Michael Foukarakis wrote:
    > On Jan 31, 1:15 pm, spinoza1111<> wrote:
    >> Beware of certain buzzwords [...]

    >
    > Please refrain from using the aforementioned expressions, as you risk
    > being held liable to charges of crimes against public disorder,
    > irrational thought infringement, newsgroup trespassing,[...]


    "I swear to God I will see you in court."

    --
    Eric Sosman
    lid
     
    Eric Sosman, Jan 31, 2010
    #9
  10. spinoza1111

    spinoza1111 Guest

    On Jan 31, 9:15 pm, Nick Keighley <>
    wrote:
    > Subject: Warning to newbies
    >
    > On 31 Jan, 11:15,spinoza1111<> wrote:
    >
    > > Beware of certain buzzwords including "sequence points" and "trap
    > > representation".

    >
    > to those who aren't aware of it spinoza has some sort of axe to grind.
    > A troll in other words.


    I'm not a troll. I'm a software developer with most of the Master's
    degree in CS complete with a straight A average, thirty years of
    experience, who's assisted John Nash and Jon "The Fate of the Earth"
    Schell with C and the Mac, who's published on CS since 1976. However,
    I also don't lie and I make dishonest and silly people uncomfortable.
    >
    > > They have no scientific content, and instead were developed to cover
    > > up the inadequacies and very impossibility of "standardizing" a toxic
    > > waste dump (the C programming language and its dialects).

    >
    > these terms are well defined by the C standard. If you interested in


    The C standard is the problem, because the C "standard" is bogus
    science.

    > their defininition then look them up in the standard. If you are
    > interested in their practical value then check out out past posts in
    > this newsgroup or ask!
    >
    > [rougly speaking:
    > sequence point: a point in the source code where the compution must be


    "Compution"?

    > completed. In between sequence points there may be a choice as to the
    > order in which various sub-computions can be doen. This gives


    "Computions". Once is a typo. Two is a subliterate trying to tell me
    something.

    > implementors freedom to reorganise code foroptimisation purposes.


    This is absurd. Had the members of the C standards board been
    qualified they would have realized that it is not the language's job
    to "help the optimizer". We know how to optimize WITHOUT changing the
    order of computations in source code so as to get different results at
    different times, and no other major language was designed or
    redesigned "for optimization".

    For example, the only way to "optimize" a+b+c correctly is to use the
    commutative law. Whereas the members of the C standards team or group
    (one of whom, Peter Seebach, had never taken a computer science class
    and paid his way onto the group to advance his career) actually
    believed that the language had to allow changes to evaluation order to
    be optimized. This is the reverse of the truth: languages with
    stricter rules are EASIER to optimize as long as you optimize in the
    only ethical way possible, eg., preserving mathematical correctness.


    >
    > trap value: an illegal value. Reading such a value may terminate the


    To paraphrase Dijkstra: The problems of language standardization,
    which is nothing more than language design, are much too difficult for
    people who think in vague and corporate ways, compounded with sloppy
    English.

    Do you even know what "reading" a "trap value" might be? If I can
    assign a pointer to void it's been read, and I can. The dishonesty of
    the C standard is that it legislates against bad practice without
    empowering compilers to detect it at run time, because the C standard
    was developed SOLELY to enable vendors without any effort to label
    existing compilers "standard".

    Reading ANY value, not just values in this poorly defined subset, may
    terminate the program, therefore any value is a trap value: the
    concept is NOT part of computer science, it is voodoo hoodoo developed
    by psychology majors actually proud that they've never taken a CS
    class.


    > program. TVs are rare in integer formats but many floating point
    > formats support bit patterns that are not actaully floating point
    > numbers (infinities and NaN (not a number) values.


    NAN is a floating point number whose use causes an interrupt (the
    clown who called them "trap values" was probably some incompetent
    geezer that vaguely remembered when interrupts were called traps). The
    use of infinity and NAN doesn't produce "undefined" results in
    sensible environments at all: if NAN occurs in an expression, the
    expression is NAN, not undefined, and the same is normally the case
    for infinity.

    It is undefined in your mind:
    Hand-waving and voodoo in the service of money is not science.
    What you call "undefined" is, we find,
    The name and only the name of your stupidity, greed and ignorance.
    You learned in corporations intellectual dishonesty
    And that form of male bonding called normalized deviance
    Which is also evident in your bullying and ungracious uncharity
    Towards strangers which was the sin of Sodom by chance.
    You sat on your ass and you compromised,
    And the evidence is in words which have no content,
    Schildt took one look, and sighed,
    These clowns are doing nothing important.
    The only way to standardize C was to be formal and not undefined on
    its semantics,
    Which could have been elegantly defined in C.
    But thugs in the room came from the shadows,
    And said you have for this no authority.
    Thou shalt not use your brains, atrophied as they were, and are:
    Instead thou shalt do as money decrees if in this business, you would
    go far!

    >
    >
    >
    > }
     
    spinoza1111, Jan 31, 2010
    #10
  11. spinoza1111

    spinoza1111 Guest

    On Feb 1, 1:04 am, Richard Heathfield <> wrote:
    > Nick Keighley wrote:
    > > Subject: Warning to newbies

    >
    > > On 31 Jan, 11:15,spinoza1111<> wrote:

    >
    > >> Beware of certain buzzwords including "sequence points" and "trap
    > >> representation".

    >
    > > to those who aren't aware of it spinoza has some sort of axe to grind.
    > > A troll in other words.

    >
    > That isn't what a troll is. A troll is someone who posts deliberately
    > provocative material, the objective being to incite a hostile reaction
    > for the heck of it. A true troll has no axe to grind, just a newsgroup
    > to pester.
    >
    > There is such a thing as a clever troll, but these are rarely seen in
    > comp.lang.c nowadays.


    Heathfield is right.
    >
    > <snip>
    >
    > --
    > Richard Heathfield <http://www.cpax.org.uk>
    > Email: -http://www. +rjh@
    > "Usenet is a strange place" - dmr 29 July 1999
    > Sig line vacant - apply within
     
    spinoza1111, Jan 31, 2010
    #11
  12. spinoza1111

    spinoza1111 Guest

    On Jan 31, 7:19 pm, jacob navia <> wrote:
    > spinoza1111a crit :
    >
    > > Beware of certain buzzwords including "sequence points" and "trap
    > > representation".

    >
    > > They have no scientific content, and instead were developed to cover
    > > up the inadequacies and very impossibility of "standardizing" a toxic
    > > waste dump (the C programming language and its dialects).

    >
    > Idiot


    No, Jacob, I'm not an idiot. And if you'd not be bullied, don't bully
    in turn. I've programmed in several languages successfully, and I
    realized in 1991 that C was overrated because it allows smart people
    to make stupid mistakes in service of providing an old-fashioned form
    of computing "power" that is for the most part extremely marginal
    today.

    This is the Walter Mitty fantasy that the programmer is somehow in
    reality assisting, if not second guessing, the "real man" hardware
    engineer by squeezing cycles using a language which violates rules
    made for lesser men. It allows programmers to avoid thinking in the
    form of better problem definition and algorithm research.

    It supports the nonsensical hacker "ethic" mythos that fat,
    unimaginative and uncreative corporate shitheads are in reality
    creative artists when they create software that creates silly problems
    because of the shortcuts those slobs have taken.

    **** you, Monsieur. I'll certainly be less interested in defending you
    against the thugs in this newsgroup since you have proven you're a
    thug, who like Heathfield has prostituted himself in order to
    commercially promote a product.
     
    spinoza1111, Jan 31, 2010
    #12
  13. spinoza1111

    spinoza1111 Guest

    On Feb 1, 1:57 am, Seebs <> wrote:
    > On 2010-01-31, Richard Heathfield <> wrote:
    >
    > > That isn't what a troll is. A troll is someone who posts deliberately
    > > provocative material, the objective being to incite a hostile reaction
    > > for the heck of it. A true troll has no axe to grind, just a newsgroup
    > > to pester.

    >
    > As someone who spent years reading alt.religion.kibology, I'd like to
    > point out that, much like "hacker", the term has more than one sense.
    > Trolling is a kind of fishing; instead of throwing a baited hook where
    > you think the fish are, you move your boat around with a baited hook
    > in the water behind you, and some fish go for it because it's moving.
    >
    > Generically, "trolling" can be used for any activity designed to provoke
    > *any* kind of responses, as long as the goal is the responses in and of
    > themselves.  Asking a question because you want to know the answer isn't
    > trolling; asking a question because it would amuse you if people answered
    > it probably is.
    >
    > It is worth noting that, in some cases, trolling is directed not at a
    > newsgroup, but at a specific person, and that a skilled troll can be an
    > asset to a newsgroup or forum.  On some of the web-based bulletin boards
    > I hang around on, I've seen trolls do a very good job of dealing with
    > obnoxious nuisance users, by posting things that everyone else would ignore
    > but which would tie the nuisance users up for hours -- this having the
    > convenient effect of, say, keeping the nuisances from harassing people who
    > were actually hurt or offended by their behavior.
    >
    > That works better on a forum where threads you aren't interested in don't
    > have to be "skipped", you just don't navigate to them.
    >
    > On the other hand, many users can enjoy a successful and interesting troll
    > played for comedy value.  Back in the day, there was a long-running thread
    > about whether a given number was prime; all I recall is that it was about
    > twelve digits, the last of which was an even number.  The various pseudo-math
    > offered to "prove" that this number was prime was funny.  (I still have fond
    > memories of discovering that, yes, the Internet contains people who can be
    > convinced that ATMs print money rather than having a supply of pre-printed
    > money.  The best part was someone who worked at a bank, and testified that
    > his job included putting fresh rolls of paper in the ATM.  When someone
    > said those were for receipts, a third party jumped in and said "Don't be
    > ridiculous, those are preprinted.")
    >
    > -s
    > --
    > Copyright 2010, all wrongs reversed.  Peter Seebach / ://www.seebs.net/log/<-- lawsuits, religion, and funny pictureshttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fair_Game_(Scientology) <-- get educated!


    You've just self-indulgently wasted our time with a post that
    contributes NOTHING to the discussion apart from an old staple of
    break rooms in corporations: the foibles of other people, as opposed
    to the implied wisdom of the narrator.

    People sit around and tell these stories when they in fact have no
    autonomy. They are like racist jokes, since the purpose of telling
    them is to imply, without any intellectual effort, that the speaker
    knows everything that's worth knowing.
     
    spinoza1111, Jan 31, 2010
    #13
  14. spinoza1111

    Mark Guest

    spinoza1111 <> wrote:
    > On Jan 31, 7:19 pm, jacob navia <> wrote:
    >> spinoza1111a crit :
    >>
    >> > Beware of certain buzzwords including "sequence points" and "trap
    >> > representation".

    >>
    >> > They have no scientific content, and instead were developed to cover
    >> > up the inadequacies and very impossibility of "standardizing" a toxic
    >> > waste dump (the C programming language and its dialects).

    >>
    >> Idiot

    >
    > No, Jacob, I'm not an idiot. And if you'd not be bullied, don't bully
    > in turn. I've programmed in several languages successfully, and I
    > realized in 1991 that C was overrated because it allows smart people
    > to make stupid mistakes in service of providing an old-fashioned form
    > of computing "power" that is for the most part extremely marginal
    > today.
    >
    > <snip>


    Edward,

    If, as it sounds, you gave up on C in 1991, why hang out in comp.lang.c?
    The MS enthusiast who niggles at Mac users in Mac forums will be viewed
    as a troll. The same is true of many atheists in religious groups.
    Why, as someone who doesn't rate C, go to a C group?

    It doesn't make much sense...unless you're trolling.
     
    Mark, Jan 31, 2010
    #14
  15. On Jan 31, 8:45 pm, spinoza1111 <> wrote:
    > I'm not a troll. I'm a software developer with most of the Master's
    > degree in CS complete with a straight A average, thirty years of
    > experience, who's assisted John Nash and Jon "The Fate of the Earth"
    > Schell with C and the Mac, who's published on CS since 1976. However,
    > I also don't lie and I make dishonest and silly people uncomfortable.


    None of those are mutually exclusive with the troll status you hold.


    > The C standard is the problem, because the C "standard" is bogus
    > science.


    The C standard is not science. It does not claim to be science, let
    alone "bogus" science. You are therefore talking about things that do
    not exist. In that context, I believe the minotaurs should abandon C
    for VB, and then you may focus on something constructive.

    > "Computions". Once is a typo. Two is a subliterate trying to tell me
    > something.


    You are focusing on all things irrelevant because you have nothing of
    substance to say. The true way of a troll.

    > This is absurd. Had the members of the C standards board been
    > qualified they would have realized that it is not the language's job
    > to "help the optimizer".


    ....and that is your opinion.

    > We know how to optimize WITHOUT changing the
    > order of computations in source code so as to get different results at
    > different times, and no other major language was designed or
    > redesigned "for optimization".


    The only reason you know how to do that is because the language allows
    you to.

    > For example, the only way to "optimize" a+b+c correctly is to use the
    > commutative law.


    Incorrect. This is not a math class, anyway.

    > Whereas the members of the C standards team or group
    > (one of whom, Peter Seebach, had never taken a computer science class
    > and paid his way onto the group to advance his career) actually
    > believed that the language had to allow changes to evaluation order to
    > be optimized. This is the reverse of the truth: languages with
    > stricter rules are EASIER to optimize as long as you optimize in the
    > only ethical way possible, eg., preserving mathematical correctness.


    Wrong. The strictest language, one that demands operations will appear
    in machine code in the order specified in source code, cannot be
    optimized in the limited context of the optimizer you are concerning
    yourself with. Perhaps you need to do some studying first, because
    being published since '76 hasn't helped you much.

    > To paraphrase Dijkstra:


    Paraphrase all you want, it's still bs.

    > Do you even know what "reading" a "trap value" might be? If I can
    > assign a pointer to void it's been read,


    That's a write operation, not a read.

    > and I can.


    With help from the minotaurs, sure.

    > Reading ANY value, not just values in this poorly defined subset, may
    > terminate the program, therefore any value is a trap value: the
    > concept is NOT part of computer science, it is voodoo hoodoo developed
    > by psychology majors actually proud that they've never taken a CS
    > class.




    > NAN is a floating point number


    "value"

    > whose use causes an interrupt


    No, its use AND production causes an exception.

    > The use of infinity and NAN doesn't produce "undefined" results in
    > sensible environments at all: if NAN occurs in an expression, the
    > expression is NAN, not undefined, and the same is normally the case
    > for infinity.


    The C standard adopts IEC 60559 definitions and conventions for
    evaluation of mathematical expressions. Does it state the result, when
    one or both operands are NaN, is undefined? And what is it with
    "sensible environments" people seem to be invoking all the time? There
    aren't any sensible environments, they're all figments of our
    imagination!
     
    Michael Foukarakis, Jan 31, 2010
    #15
  16. spinoza1111

    Seebs Guest

    On 2010-01-31, Michael Foukarakis <> wrote:
    > On Jan 31, 8:45 pm, spinoza1111 <> wrote:
    >[...]


    > The C standard is not science. It does not claim to be science, let
    > alone "bogus" science. You are therefore talking about things that do
    > not exist. In that context, I believe the minotaurs should abandon C
    > for VB, and then you may focus on something constructive.


    Indeed, I would never have thought of it as being "science".

    >> We know how to optimize WITHOUT changing the
    >> order of computations in source code so as to get different results at
    >> different times, and no other major language was designed or
    >> redesigned "for optimization".


    > The only reason you know how to do that is because the language allows
    > you to.


    Perhaps more importantly, there are many cases in which better optimizations
    are possible if you allow the order of some operations to vary, because you
    know that you don't care about the difference -- but it may not be possible
    for the compiler to know that you don't care.

    >> For example, the only way to "optimize" a+b+c correctly is to use the
    >> commutative law.


    > Incorrect. This is not a math class, anyway.


    Indeed. In particular, it is worth noticing that there are cases where
    obvious mathematical properties do not apply to C.

    ((a * b) / c) != (a * (b / c))

    is true for some a, b, and c.

    >> Whereas the members of the C standards team or group
    >> (one of whom, Peter Seebach, had never taken a computer science class
    >> and paid his way onto the group to advance his career)


    Ooh, I like that one. Did you know, I also paid for my driver's license?
    Clearly, a dishonest attempt to further my personal travel options.

    >> Do you even know what "reading" a "trap value" might be? If I can
    >> assign a pointer to void it's been read,


    > That's a write operation, not a read.


    Also, there's no such thing as a "trap value". There is such a thing as
    a "trap representation". "value" and "representation" are not interchangeable
    concepts!

    >> and I can.


    > With help from the minotaurs, sure.


    Yes. I particularly like "assign a pointer to void", because I don't think
    it's possible. (It may be possible to cast it to void, but a cast is not
    an assignment. So far as I can tell, assignment can be done only if
    you have an lvalue of the type, and you can't have a void lvalue.)

    >> whose use causes an interrupt


    > No, its use AND production causes an exception.


    .... Which may well be ignored, depending on context. :)

    > The C standard adopts IEC 60559 definitions and conventions for
    > evaluation of mathematical expressions. Does it state the result, when
    > one or both operands are NaN, is undefined? And what is it with
    > "sensible environments" people seem to be invoking all the time? There
    > aren't any sensible environments, they're all figments of our
    > imagination!


    Yeah. And actually, I don't think that, assuming IEEE arithmetic, either
    NaN or either infinity is a trap representation. Trap representations are
    pretty rare, and many systems don't have any.

    -s
    --
    Copyright 2010, all wrongs reversed. Peter Seebach /
    http://www.seebs.net/log/ <-- lawsuits, religion, and funny pictures
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fair_Game_(Scientology) <-- get educated!
     
    Seebs, Jan 31, 2010
    #16
  17. spinoza1111

    Eric Sosman Guest

    On 1/31/2010 2:44 PM, Michael Foukarakis wrote:
    > On Jan 31, 8:45 pm, spinoza1111<> wrote:
    >> I'm not a troll. I'm a software developer with most of the Master's
    >> degree in CS complete with a straight A average, thirty years of
    >> experience, who's assisted John Nash and Jon "The Fate of the Earth"
    >> Schell with C and the Mac, who's published on CS since 1976. However,
    >> I also don't lie and I make dishonest and silly people uncomfortable.

    >
    > None of those are mutually exclusive with the troll status you hold.


    Whatever his failings as a computer scientist (thirty years
    to not quite finish a master's degree -- maybe in another thirty
    he'll not quite get a clue), he's a skilled and successful troll.
    Observe that he's trolled *you*, and ponder what that means.

    --
    Eric Sosman
    lid
     
    Eric Sosman, Jan 31, 2010
    #17
  18. spinoza1111

    Ike Naar Guest

    In article <>,
    spinoza1111 <> wrote:
    >To paraphrase Dijkstra: The problems of language standardization,
    >which is nothing more than language design, are much too difficult for
    >people who think in vague and corporate ways, compounded with sloppy
    >English.


    That is a very liberal interpretation of what Dijkstra said.
    For the record, here's the original quote:
    "The problems of business administration in general and data base
    management in particular are much too difficult for people that
    think in IBMerese, compounded with sloppy English."
    (EWD498, "How do we tell truths that might hurt?", June 1975)
     
    Ike Naar, Jan 31, 2010
    #18
  19. Michael Foukarakis <> writes:
    > On Jan 31, 8:45 pm, spinoza1111 <> wrote:
    >> I'm not a troll.

    [...]
    >
    > None of those are mutually exclusive with the troll status you hold.

    [...]

    Are you trying to convince "spinoza1111" that he's a troll? Do you
    expect to be successful?

    Are you trying to convince the rest of us that "spinoza1111" is
    a troll? Do you think that's necessary?

    --
    Keith Thompson (The_Other_Keith) <http://www.ghoti.net/~kst>
    Nokia
    "We must do something. This is something. Therefore, we must do this."
    -- Antony Jay and Jonathan Lynn, "Yes Minister"
     
    Keith Thompson, Jan 31, 2010
    #19
  20. spinoza1111

    spinoza1111 Guest

    On Feb 1, 4:03 am, Seebs <> wrote:
    > On 2010-01-31, Michael Foukarakis <> wrote:
    >
    > > On Jan 31, 8:45 pm,spinoza1111<> wrote:
    > >[...]
    > > The C standard is not science. It does not claim to be science, let
    > > alone "bogus" science. You are therefore talking about things that do
    > > not exist. In that context, I believe the minotaurs should abandon C
    > > for VB, and then you may focus on something constructive.

    >
    > Indeed, I would never have thought of it as being "science".


    What you do is not science, however there still is a computer science.
    >
    > >> We know how to optimize WITHOUT changing the
    > >> order of computations in source code so as to get different results at
    > >> different times, and no other major language was designed or
    > >> redesigned "for optimization".

    > > The only reason you know how to do that is because the language allows
    > > you to.

    >
    > Perhaps more importantly, there are many cases in which better optimizations
    > are possible if you allow the order of some operations to vary, because you
    > know that you don't care about the difference -- but it may not be possible
    > for the compiler to know that you don't care.


    "So anthropomorphic thinking is no good in the sense that it does not
    help. But is it also bad? Yes, it is, because even if we can point to
    some analogy between Man and Thing, the analogy is always negligible
    in comparison to the differences, and as soon as we allow ourselves to
    be seduced by the analogy to describe the Thing in anthropomorphic
    terminology, we immediately lose our control over which human
    connotations we drag into the picture. And as most of those are
    totally inadequate, the anthropomorphism becomes more misleading than
    helpful." - Dijkstra

    Compilers don't "know" jack. Instead, they should optimize while
    preserving the semantics of what you've coded using mathematical and
    computer-scientific realities. That the "standard" "allows" you to do
    something has nothing whatsoever to do with this. Languages with
    sensible and predefined execution order are EASIER to optimize than C.

    >
    > >> For example, the only way to "optimize" a+b+c correctly is to use the
    > >> commutative law.

    > > Incorrect. This is not a math class, anyway.

    >
    > Indeed.  In particular, it is worth noticing that there are cases where
    > obvious mathematical properties do not apply to C.
    >
    > ((a * b) / c) != (a * (b / c))
    >
    > is true for some a, b, and c.


    We know what these are. The fact that floating point numbers are of
    limited precision is a scientific and mathematical fact that can be
    anticipated. It does NOT license the myth that programmers are in a
    different business.

    >
    > >> Whereas the members of the C standards team or group
    > >> (one of whom, Peter Seebach, had never taken a computer science class
    > >> and paid his way onto the group to advance his career)

    >
    > Ooh, I like that one.  Did you know, I also paid for my driver's license?
    > Clearly, a dishonest attempt to further my personal travel options.


    Well, did you pay the examiner to pass you after you failed to
    parallel park? That is a better analogy, since you either contributed
    or watched.

    If you contributed, your contributions were worthless because you
    don't have the applicable education.

    If you did not contribute, then you unduly claimed authority wrt to
    Schildt.


    >
    > >> Do you even know what "reading" a "trap value" might be? If I can
    > >> assign a pointer to void it's been read,

    > > That's a write operation, not a read.

    >
    > Also, there's no such thing as a "trap value".  There is such a thing as
    > a "trap representation".  "value" and "representation" are not interchangeable
    > concepts!


    This is three card monte: there is when you want it, there isn't when
    you don't. There are five million google hits for "trap
    representation" and they are all or mostly about the C standard.

    This is the corporate game of an ignorance that is in part feigned but
    believable when feigned because of the sea of ignorance on which the
    feigning ship sails.

    >
    > >> and I can.

    > > With help from the minotaurs, sure.

    >
    > Yes.  I particularly like "assign a pointer to void", because I don't think
    > it's possible.  (It may be possible to cast it to void, but a cast is not
    > an assignment.  So far as I can tell, assignment can be done only if
    > you have an lvalue of the type, and you can't have a void lvalue.)
    >
    > >> whose use causes an interrupt

    > > No, its use AND production causes an exception.

    >
    > ... Which may well be ignored, depending on context.  :)
    >
    > > The C standard adopts IEC 60559 definitions and conventions for
    > > evaluation of mathematical expressions. Does it state the result, when
    > > one or both operands are NaN, is undefined? And what is it with
    > > "sensible environments" people seem to be invoking all the time? There
    > > aren't any sensible environments, they're all figments of our
    > > imagination!

    >
    > Yeah.  And actually, I don't think that, assuming IEEE arithmetic, either
    > NaN or either infinity is a trap representation.  Trap representations are
    > pretty rare, and many systems don't have any.


    Because the standard is junk science, words can conveniently mean
    whatever you like.
    >
    > -s
    > --
    > Copyright 2010, all wrongs reversed.  Peter Seebach / ://www.seebs.net/log/<-- lawsuits, religion, and funny pictureshttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fair_Game_(Scientology) <-- get educated!
     
    spinoza1111, Feb 1, 2010
    #20
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