web authoring tools

Discussion in 'Python' started by Brandon J. Van Every, Apr 11, 2005.

  1. As is easily noticed, my website sucks. Enough people keep ragging
    on me about it, that maybe I'll up and do something about it. However,
    I currently have FrontPage 2000 and I hate it. Ideally, I would like an
    open source website + html design tool implemented in Python, so
    that possibly someday I can fix whatever's broken about it. That said,
    I would like a tool that actually saves me work as a web designer. I
    don't feel that FrontPage 2000 does this. I'm saying there's a certain
    level of maturity that has to exist in the app, it can't be some "alpha
    quality" thing. If you know of such a beast in Python, please
    let me know.

    Here are some examples of reasonable website designs for my purposes as
    a game developer or consultant:

    http://www.igda.org/seattle/
    http://www.cyphondesign.com/
    http://www.alphageeksinc.com/
    http://www.gamasutra.com

    The first 3 sites "breathe well," they aren't cluttered. Gamasutra is a
    little cluttered, but has good aesthetics. Also when I write articles
    for other people's consumption, this is the standard I'd measure them
    by.

    I'm not sure if I want a blogging capability, or something more like
    Gamasutra. That's a quality vs. quantity issue. I don't know if I want
    a web forum. I generally don't like web forums and I've tended to let
    Yahoo! Groups do the mailing list job.

    I believe my webhost can take either Unix or Windows stuff. My local
    machine where I do all development is Windows. I'd be interested to
    know about Linux solutions too though.

    --
    Cheers, www.indiegamedesign.com
    Brandon Van Every Seattle, WA

    "The pioneer is the one with the arrows in his back."
    - anonymous entrepreneur
     
    Brandon J. Van Every, Apr 11, 2005
    #1
    1. Advertising

  2. Brandon J. Van Every

    Ron_Adam Guest

    On Mon, 11 Apr 2005 05:14:47 GMT, "Brandon J. Van Every"
    <> wrote:

    >As is easily noticed, my website sucks. Enough people keep ragging
    >on me about it, that maybe I'll up and do something about it. However,
    >I currently have FrontPage 2000 and I hate it. Ideally, I would like an
    >open source website + html design tool implemented in Python, so
    >that possibly someday I can fix whatever's broken about it. That said,
    >I would like a tool that actually saves me work as a web designer. I
    >don't feel that FrontPage 2000 does this. I'm saying there's a certain
    >level of maturity that has to exist in the app, it can't be some "alpha
    >quality" thing. If you know of such a beast in Python, please
    >let me know.


    I've always found a html aware text editor works best. Programs like
    front page tend to try to insert things when and where you don't want
    them. So you end up fighting the program and/or having to get their
    bugs out of your web site. I'm sure there are probably some good
    visual what you see is what you get editors, but Just have't found any
    I like.

    I would use commercial software package if I was doing an internet
    store with an inventory database, and shopping carts. That's a
    situation where you want your web sight to be in a standard proven
    format. But you hand over a lot of design freedom also.

    >Here are some examples of reasonable website designs for my purposes as
    >a game developer or consultant:
    >
    >http://www.igda.org/seattle/
    >http://www.cyphondesign.com/
    >http://www.alphageeksinc.com/
    >http://www.gamasutra.com


    These top three where done with text editors. If you view the source,
    you will notice the formatting has good consistent indenting and there
    isn't a lot of extra tags or other information needlessly inserted.

    They make good use of CSS for formatting also. If this is the type of
    thing you want, save the pages and study how they did it. Use your
    own text and graphics of course.

    The fourth one in your list uses something called SiteCatalyst, which
    I'm not familiar with. The web site to it is listed in the source.
    You'll notice it has empty spaces and inconsistent indenting due to it
    being assembled from templates.

    >I'm not sure if I want a blogging capability, or something more like
    >Gamasutra. That's a quality vs. quantity issue. I don't know if I want
    >a web forum. I generally don't like web forums and I've tended to let
    >Yahoo! Groups do the mailing list job.


    Since you're unsure of what you want, you should probably follow the
    rule, 'if in doubt, leave it out', you can always expand or add
    features later.

    >I believe my webhost can take either Unix or Windows stuff. My local
    >machine where I do all development is Windows. I'd be interested to
    >know about Linux solutions too though.


    Here's a good place to start, to find python web site software.

    http://www.python.org/topics/web/


    Hope this helped,

    Cheers,
    Ron
     
    Ron_Adam, Apr 11, 2005
    #2
    1. Advertising

  3. Fredrik Lundh, Apr 11, 2005
    #3
  4. "Fredrik Lundh" <> wrote in
    news::

    > Brandon J. Van Every wrote:
    >
    >> Ideally, I would like an open source website + html design tool
    >> implemented in Python

    >
    > didn't you just say that ideally, you wanted a tool written in lisp or
    > scheme?


    I honestly got a little tired of the tone of the answers I was getting
    from that crowd, about what an idiot I am. My query there is still
    ongoing and perhaps genuinely useful answers will arise, but in the
    interest of time I thought I'd initiate Plan B. The Python universe has
    a much larger cadre of web designers than the Lisp / Scheme universe, so
    I figured the answers here would be of a higher quality. I don't think
    Python is appropriate to all programming tasks, but it's definitely
    appropriate to web development and I wouldn't mind using / contributing
    to open source web development tools written in it.

    > did you try the one frank wrote for you?
    >
    > http://groups-beta.google.com/group/comp.lang.lisp/msg/6df9eb74bfd1
    > 6310


    No, because although it's amusing, it doesn't accomplish anything I wish
    to accomplish. Currently my website does exactly what I intend it to do.
    I want to see how long it is before I actually do something about it, and
    when people say "Your website is down" it actually amuses me. Plus
    reminds me that perhaps I should do something.

    > (for python tools, start here: http://www.python.org/topics/web/ )


    Thanks!


    --
    Cheers, www.indiegamedesign.com
    Brandon Van Every Seattle, WA

    "The pioneer is the one with the arrows in his back."
    - anonymous entrepreneur
     
    Brandon J. Van Every, Apr 11, 2005
    #4
  5. Ron_Adam <radam2_@_tampabay.rr.com> wrote in
    >>
    >>http://www.igda.org/seattle/
    >>http://www.cyphondesign.com/
    >>http://www.alphageeksinc.com/
    >>http://www.gamasutra.com

    >
    > These top three where done with text editors. If you view the source,
    > you will notice the formatting has good consistent indenting and there
    > isn't a lot of extra tags or other information needlessly inserted.
    >
    > They make good use of CSS for formatting also. If this is the type of
    > thing you want, save the pages and study how they did it. Use your
    > own text and graphics of course.


    Thanks for that insight. It may not be the answer I exactly wanted to
    hear, but it does ring true with regards to my FrontPage 2000 experience.


    --
    Cheers, www.indiegamedesign.com
    Brandon Van Every Seattle, WA

    "The pioneer is the one with the arrows in his back."
    - anonymous entrepreneur
     
    Brandon J. Van Every, Apr 11, 2005
    #5

  6. >>> Ideally, I would like an open source website + html design tool
    >>> implemented in Python

    >>
    >> didn't you just say that ideally, you wanted a tool written in lisp or
    >> scheme?

    >
    > I honestly got a little tired of the tone of the answers I was getting
    > from that crowd, about what an idiot I am. My query there is still


    You mean you are interested in a web application programming framework in
    the spirit of Seaside, or in a HTML/CSS editor in the spirit of
    Dreamweaver ?
     
    =?iso-8859-15?Q?Pierre-Fr=E9d=E9ric_Caillaud?=, Apr 11, 2005
    #6
  7. =?iso-8859-15?Q?Pierre-Fr=E9d=E9ric_Caillaud?= <> wrote in
    news:eek:p.so2yz4blqfv3if@localhost:

    >
    >>>> Ideally, I would like an open source website + html design tool
    >>>> implemented in Python
    >>>
    >>> didn't you just say that ideally, you wanted a tool written in lisp
    >>> or scheme?

    >>
    >> I honestly got a little tired of the tone of the answers I was
    >> getting from that crowd, about what an idiot I am. My query there is
    >> still

    >
    > You mean you are interested in a web application programming
    > framework in
    > the spirit of Seaside, or in a HTML/CSS editor in the spirit of
    > Dreamweaver ?


    I believe Dreamweaver-esque. I see myself writing articles and eventually
    doing snazzy eye candy layouts. I do not see myself engaging in elaborate
    flow control or anything terribly programmatic. I want to concentrate on
    the content, not the mechanism.


    --
    Cheers, www.indiegamedesign.com
    Brandon Van Every Seattle, WA

    "The pioneer is the one with the arrows in his back."
    - anonymous entrepreneur
     
    Brandon J. Van Every, Apr 12, 2005
    #7
  8. Brandon J. Van Every

    Steve Holden Guest

    Brandon J. Van Every wrote:
    > =?iso-8859-15?Q?Pierre-Fr=E9d=E9ric_Caillaud?= <> wrote in
    > news:eek:p.so2yz4blqfv3if@localhost:
    >
    >
    >>>>>Ideally, I would like an open source website + html design tool
    >>>>>implemented in Python
    >>>>
    >>>>didn't you just say that ideally, you wanted a tool written in lisp
    >>>>or scheme?
    >>>
    >>>I honestly got a little tired of the tone of the answers I was
    >>>getting from that crowd, about what an idiot I am. My query there is
    >>>still

    >>
    >> You mean you are interested in a web application programming
    >> framework in
    >>the spirit of Seaside, or in a HTML/CSS editor in the spirit of
    >>Dreamweaver ?

    >
    >
    > I believe Dreamweaver-esque. I see myself writing articles and eventually
    > doing snazzy eye candy layouts. I do not see myself engaging in elaborate
    > flow control or anything terribly programmatic. I want to concentrate on
    > the content, not the mechanism.
    >
    >

    I've stayed out of this one so far because of a natural disinclination
    to join religious discussions, but sine we are now talking good common
    sense I'd like to ask whether a *batch-oriented* system for folding
    database content into a static web site with common look-and-feel would
    be of interest.

    Now PyCon is over I've been able to blog about the techniques used to
    generate the web site at http://www.holdenweb.com/, and most recently
    about using reStructured Text in the database to ease authorship
    problems for the less-taxing content. See

    http://www.holdenweb.com/blogs/2005/04/versioned-reviews-implemented-post.html

    to determine whether the overall approach would work for you.

    regards
    Steve
    --
    Steve Holden +1 703 861 4237 +1 800 494 3119
    Holden Web LLC http://www.holdenweb.com/
    Python Web Programming http://pydish.holdenweb.com/
     
    Steve Holden, Apr 12, 2005
    #8
  9. Steve Holden <> wrote in
    > Brandon J. Van Every wrote:
    >>
    >> I believe Dreamweaver-esque. I see myself writing articles and
    >> eventually doing snazzy eye candy layouts. I do not see myself
    >> engaging in elaborate flow control or anything terribly programmatic.
    >> I want to concentrate on the content, not the mechanism.
    >>
    >>

    > I've stayed out of this one so far because of a natural disinclination
    > to join religious discussions, but sine we are now talking good common
    > sense I'd like to ask whether a *batch-oriented* system for folding
    > database content into a static web site with common look-and-feel
    > would be of interest.
    >
    > Now PyCon is over I've been able to blog about the techniques used to
    > generate the web site at http://www.holdenweb.com/, and most recently
    > about using reStructured Text in the database to ease authorship
    > problems for the less-taxing content. See
    >
    > http://www.holdenweb.com/blogs/2005/04/versioned-reviews-implemented-po
    > st.html
    >
    > to determine whether the overall approach would work for you.


    I have 2 goals:

    1) to worry about plumbing as little as possible, as I generate articles
    and content. Once a framework is established, this can be handled
    "cookie cutter."

    2) to create a unique brand identity based on good eye candy. For this
    part of the problem, the website cannot look generic. At a minimum, I
    would need a facility that allows me to painlessly arrange my own 2D
    artwork.

    --
    Cheers, www.indiegamedesign.com
    Brandon Van Every Seattle, WA

    "The pioneer is the one with the arrows in his back."
    - anonymous entrepreneur
     
    Brandon J. Van Every, Apr 12, 2005
    #9
  10. Brandon J. Van Every

    Steve Holden Guest

    Brandon J. Van Every wrote:
    > Steve Holden <> wrote in
    >
    >>Brandon J. Van Every wrote:
    >>
    >>>I believe Dreamweaver-esque. I see myself writing articles and
    >>>eventually doing snazzy eye candy layouts. I do not see myself
    >>>engaging in elaborate flow control or anything terribly programmatic.
    >>> I want to concentrate on the content, not the mechanism.
    >>>
    >>>

    >>
    >>I've stayed out of this one so far because of a natural disinclination
    >>to join religious discussions, but sine we are now talking good common
    >>sense I'd like to ask whether a *batch-oriented* system for folding
    >>database content into a static web site with common look-and-feel
    >>would be of interest.
    >>
    >>Now PyCon is over I've been able to blog about the techniques used to
    >>generate the web site at http://www.holdenweb.com/, and most recently
    >>about using reStructured Text in the database to ease authorship
    >>problems for the less-taxing content. See
    >>
    >>http://www.holdenweb.com/blogs/2005/04/versioned-reviews-implemented-po
    >>st.html
    >>
    >>to determine whether the overall approach would work for you.

    >
    >
    > I have 2 goals:
    >
    > 1) to worry about plumbing as little as possible, as I generate articles
    > and content. Once a framework is established, this can be handled
    > "cookie cutter."
    >

    The purpose of the software is precisely to deliver database content in
    a "fully-plumbed" fashion. You still have to maintain the content, and
    there are clearly no drag-and-drop tools, but a set of database rows in
    a page table is what the system uses to generate www.holdenweb.com.

    > 2) to create a unique brand identity based on good eye candy. For this
    > part of the problem, the website cannot look generic. At a minimum, I
    > would need a facility that allows me to painlessly arrange my own 2D
    > artwork.
    >

    That's what stylesheets are for, and this design is fully stylesheet-driven.

    regards
    Steve
    --
    Steve Holden +1 703 861 4237 +1 800 494 3119
    Holden Web LLC http://www.holdenweb.com/
    Python Web Programming http://pydish.holdenweb.com/
     
    Steve Holden, Apr 12, 2005
    #10
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