What are your views on Redhat purchasing JBoss?

D

Danno

What are your views on the purchase? Does it affect you? Is this a
good sign for java programmers in general to have a Linux company buy a
java open-source company?

P.S. I decided not to post this on the advocacy group, because I wanted
to ask straight to the developers themselves.
 
O

Oliver Wong

Danno said:
What are your views on the purchase? Does it affect you? Is this a
good sign for java programmers in general to have a Linux company buy a
java open-source company?

FWIW (since you didn't get any other replies) I don't really care about
it one way or the other.

- Oliver
 
R

Roedy Green

What are your views on the purchase? Does it affect you? Is this a
good sign for java programmers in general to have a Linux company buy a
java open-source company?

I don't like companies buying other companies. Most of the time the
products of the bought company deteriorate and die.
 
K

Kent Paul Dolan

I'm a bit saddened. If JBOSS was started as a
"software vision" thingie, that vision is probably
dead. If it was started as a "let's get rich"
thingie, the principles probably did, but now the
JBOSS "ship" is rudderless.

Only in the sense that I wouldn't anticipate
JBOSS remaining a product maintained and enhanced by
a highly motivated group of technologists, and so
would be reluctant to invest my intellectual
resources into its use.

In general, it might be, if Red Hat were "any old
Linux company" but Red Hat is in IBM's pocket, and
IBM's incompetence at small-company takeovers is
legendary. [I was at one such company, Whistle
Communications, where IBM's hamfisted imposition of
a deathly burdensome corporate culture on a small
dot com venture capitalized firm paralyzed all
progress with no perceivable end in sight, which in
turn drove all the engineering talent away in mere
months. I was one of the last three software
engineers to leave, because "talent" was a bit of a
stretch in my case, while a few of the other
engineers who departed pretty much instantly were
world-class talents, working as FreeBSD committers
and kernel designers/implementers in their spare
time. In that crowd, I ran missions for sodas,
mostly.]
I don't like companies buying other companies.

Pretty much, you get that if you take the
"Capitalism" option in choosing your form of
economic system/government.
Most of the time the products of the bought
company deteriorate and die.

True enough, but the other side of the story is that
being taken over is the _originators'_ dream. Any
stock options they might have given employees become
void, because the company never does an IPO, the
cash for the takeover is handed right to the
principles, the rest of the staff gets beans for
their efforts, and quickly, in most cases, depart.

To me, those constitute unethical business practices
in and of themselves, since the staff takes low pay,
typically, in return for hard work to make those
stock options valuable. When that hard work makes
the company valuable for takeover instead, some
other compensation should be given to those
employees, they shouldn't become victims of a bait
and switch scheme.

That the company may then quickly fold, or have all
remaining staff diverted to other efforts, because
the incoming management is clueless to make keep
working what the outgoing management first made work
is of no consequence to the now-departed principles,
who typically take their money and run off to
reinvest that money in a new venture.

It's a bit sad for the original company's customers,
on the other hand. I've received occasional
solicitations, for over a decade, for help
supporting a product, the Interjet I, which
IBM/Whistle failed to support for their customers
much past my departure, as the company's focus
changed away from the Internet appliance field and
toward web site hosting. This reference to me
happens just because Google gets hits on some of my
web pages that mention that "Internet appliance" by
name, not because I have some hot reputation as a
FreeBSD troubleshooter.

FWIW

xanthian.
 
R

robert

Danno escreveu:
What are your views on the purchase? Does it affect you? Is this a
good sign for java programmers in general to have a Linux company buy a
java open-source company?

P.S. I decided not to post this on the advocacy group, because I wanted
to ask straight to the developers themselves.

The important point for me, so far overlooked, is that the Hibernate
team is largely employed by JBoss. Hibernate is arguably the most
important open source project in Java. Gavin King, despite being one of
the most abrasive people anywhere in any context, is one of the members
of the EJB3 comittee.

So in short, as Roedy accurately commented, these companies often buy
others to simply kill or ignore them. Having JBoss wither and die would
be bad for java - but perhaps Geronimo could recover or better yet
Tomcat becomes even more popular. Losing Hibernate, however, would
directly effect a significant percentage of Java development.

That all being said, I'm a Suse guy - after using redhat exclusively
from '96 to '02. What Redhat became around my switch makes me wary
about JBoss now, but in the short term at least projects will still be
started using JBoss. Lets see if that's still true a year or two from
now.

Robert
http://www.braziloutsource.com/
 
D

Darryl L. Pierce

Kent said:
In general, it might be, if Red Hat were "any old
Linux company" but Red Hat is in IBM's pocket, and
IBM's incompetence at small-company takeovers is
legendary.

Gotta put this one down: RH is not in IBM's pocket. If anything, RH buying
JBoss is going to strain any relationship between IBM and RH given that
JBoss is a direct competitor to Websphere. Also, RH is not a small company.
Not at all.
 
K

Kent Paul Dolan

Darryl said:
Kent Paul Dolan wrote:
Gotta put this one down: RH is not in IBM's pocket. If anything, RH buying
JBoss is going to strain any relationship between IBM and RH given that
JBoss is a direct competitor to Websphere. Also, RH is not a small company.
Not at all.

A company whose largest investor is IBM, buying up a company
which competes with a heavily touted IBM product, sure wouldn't
make your average cospiracy theorist very happy about the future
of JBOSS.

xanthian.
 
D

Darryl L. Pierce

Kent said:
A company whose largest investor is IBM,

Based on what, exactly, do you make this claim?
buying up a company
which competes with a heavily touted IBM product, sure wouldn't
make your average cospiracy theorist very happy about the future
of JBOSS.

Well, paranoia is its own reward, reality notwithstanding.
 
D

Darryl L. Pierce

Kent said:
Fuzzy memory plus common sense. There's no sense
searching through their securities and exchange filings,
though somewhere in there is a list of all holdings 1% or
greater.

IOW, you don't know and aren't willing to verify your claim? "Fuzzy memory
and common sense" are worthless for a claim like yours. But, that's okay,
it's about what I expected. FYI, I work with Red Hat and there's no IBM
ownership or controlling going on there. One of the big discussions when we
had our all-hands meeting to make the announcement was "How is this going
to affect our relationship with IBM?" So, the conspiracy nuts are going to
generate a conspiracy fantasy here because that's what nuts do, not because
there is any fact to support them.

JBoss is going to roll into our supported stack since it is open-source,
something WebSphere is not.
 
K

Kent Paul Dolan

IOW, you don't know and aren't willing to verify your claim?

No, i pointed you at the appropriate data and invited you to
look for yourself. Since you impugn my information, I went
to the trouble to go looking, just to prove you to be a liar, an
easy task.

IBM invested $1,000,000,000 in Red Hat in 1999. Last I can
find, Red hat is valued at $5,000,000,000, making that a 20%
share (today, it was certainly more than that in 1999, and IBM's
investment probably has grown in value with Red Hat, making
it more than 20% today).

http://www.networkworld.com/news/2005/121405-novell-red-hat-ibm.html

The largest stock fund investor in Red Hat, FMR Corporation,
owns less than 17% (as of 2004, the latest information I can
find, in Red Hat's proxy filing of 2004/08/05), so, as far as i can
tell, IBM is indeed Red Hat's largest investor.

http://media.corporate-ir.net/media_files/NSD/RHAT/reports/Proxy2004.pdf
"Fuzzy memory
and common sense" are worthless for a claim like yours.

They seem to have beaten your choice of outright lying, though.

It really, really helps to check who you're picking for an opponent
before setting off on a course of disinformation, as you did here.
But, that's okay,
it's about what I expected. FYI, I work with Red Hat and there's no IBM
ownership or controlling going on there.

I can't speak to the "controlling", but "no IBM ownership" is a blatant
lie.
One of the big discussions when we
had our all-hands meeting to make the announcement was "How is this going
to affect our relationship with IBM?"

Oh, so maybe IBM _does_ have a stake here? You can't keep your story
straight for one whole paragraph.

" So, the conspiracy nuts are going to
generate a conspiracy fantasy here because that's what nuts do, not because
there is any fact to support them.
JBoss is going to roll into our supported stack since it is open-source,
something WebSphere is not.

And, from the large amount of commentary I had to wade through to
locate
the above information, is expected to sink without a trace, into Red
Hat's
"crippleware open source" model, to be replaced in the open source
market
place by JBOSS competitors.

=====

While I have a Red Hatter on the hook, what's the deal with the Red Hat
feature deficit? I was a user of Red Hat's 64bit professional version 4
for a
few months between 2005/11 and 2006/02, and compared to my home
Debian distribution, Red Hat lacked immense amounts of user friendly
desktop features. The versions of software from other sources
distributed
with Red Hat, like The GIMP, are many whole minor revision levels
behind
current freely downloadable versions, which means they go lacking lots
of
functionality.

Red Hat seems to have trapped itself in a non-open-source mode, where,
limited to the productivity of its own employees, its (certified)
products
packaged with the commercial distribution fall farther and farther
behind
the state of the art.

IMWTK

xanthian.
 
R

Roedy Green

I went
to the trouble to go looking, just to prove you to be a liar, an
easy task.

To prove someone a liar you need to do five things:

1. Quote the precise lie. You are accusing of a type of crime and an
alleged criminal has the right to know precisely what he is being
accused of.

2. Show the thing that said is factually false, not just that in your
opinion it is false or in the opinion of some expert it is false. You
have to show that there is consensus it is false.

3. You have show that there is no other plausible interpretation of
the meaning of the words that would be true. (If there is, you have to
reduce your charge at most to dissembling.)

4. You have to show the alleged liar knew the thing said was false at
the time he said it.

5. You have to provide some plausible motive why the person would lie.
If someone simply misspeaks, that is not a lie.

Simply demonstrating the temerity to disagree with the Bible or Kent
Dolan is not sufficient.
 
O

Oliver Wong

To prove someone a liar you need to do five things:

1. Quote the precise lie. You are accusing of a type of crime and an
alleged criminal has the right to know precisely what he is being
accused of.

2. Show the thing that said is factually false, not just that in your
opinion it is false or in the opinion of some expert it is false. You
have to show that there is consensus it is false.

3. You have show that there is no other plausible interpretation of
the meaning of the words that would be true. (If there is, you have to
reduce your charge at most to dissembling.)

So far, I agree.
4. You have to show the alleged liar knew the thing said was false at
the time he said it.

In my experience, there is a disagreement about the definition of the
term "lie". Some people feel that for something to be a lie, the speaker
must have intentionally said something which they knew to be false. Others
feel that it is merely sufficient for the thing said to be false, (i.e. it's
possible for someone to "lie" unintentionally). In the latter case, it's
"okay" to lie, as long as you didn't do it on purpose, in the same way that
if you stepped on my foot in an elevator, I won't be angry if you did so
unintentionally.

I accept that English is an imprecise language, and try to keep both
definitions in mind when someone uses the term "lie". You seem to prefer the
definition in which lies are always intentional. That's fine. Just keep in
mind that some people might use the other definition, and when they accuse
you of lying, they aren't associating any malice or other negative
connotation with the term.
5. You have to provide some plausible motive why the person would lie.
If someone simply misspeaks, that is not a lie.

I'm not sure it's reasonable to be required to provide a motive to
"prove" that someone lied (in either definitions of the term "lie").
Sometimes you know someone is lying, but you have no idea why. Sometimes
people just act irrationally.

- Oliver
 
R

Roedy Green

Others
feel that it is merely sufficient for the thing said to be false,

Hmm. I was unaware anyone considered that usage legitimate, though I
have certainly heard people use the "lie" where it seems to me they
meant "untrue" or "I disagree". I thought they were just being silly
claiming people deliberately erred, similar to the accusations of
being a Communist, a child molester, a liberal, a shill etc. when
rational debate fails.

My Oxford defines lie as primarily as "an intentional false
statement" and secondarily as"imposture, thing that deceives"

Both of these imply intent to deceive. Do you have a dictionary entry
that shows your definition or are you reporting how you have seen the
word used in practice (improperly) in Internet debates?
 
O

Oliver Wong

Roedy Green said:
Hmm. I was unaware anyone considered that usage legitimate, though I
have certainly heard people use the "lie" where it seems to me they
meant "untrue" or "I disagree". I thought they were just being silly
claiming people deliberately erred, similar to the accusations of
being a Communist, a child molester, a liberal, a shill etc. when
rational debate fails.

My Oxford defines lie as primarily as "an intentional false
statement" and secondarily as"imposture, thing that deceives"

Both of these imply intent to deceive. Do you have a dictionary entry
that shows your definition or are you reporting how you have seen the
word used in practice (improperly) in Internet debates?

Both.

From http://wordnet.princeton.edu/perl/webwn?s=lie

<quote>
(n) lie, prevarication (a statement that deviates from or perverts the
truth)
[...]
(v) lie (tell an untruth; pretend with intent to deceive)
</quote>

The first definition quoted here says nothing about intent; that is, a
statement is defined to be a lie depending on whether it is true or not, as
opposed to whether the speaker intended for that statement to be true or
not.

The second definition could arguably be split into two parts, showing that
lie has two meanings. One is to make a statement which is not true, and the
other is to intentionally deceive.

If you used the above definitions as the Final Authority on English, you
might pedantically argue the case that when "lie" is used as a verb, it
always implies intent to deceive (and thus argue that the semicolon does NOT
split the definition into two meanings, but rather the second part
supplements the first), whereas when used as a noun, it conveys no
information about intent.

However, I've found it useful to simply accept the fact that when some
people use the word "lie", sometimes they aren't saying anything about
intent, but merely about the truth value of the statement being described. I
find that there is a large enough number of these people that it's not worth
trying to "correct" their usage, and just accept this new meaning as a
natural evolution of the English language.

So when you get into a debate with someone, and they use the term "lie", you
might want to get clarification on what they mean by that term, and then you
can discuss whether another term might be more appropriate, or just agree to
use the agreed upon definition for the purpose of that particular debate,
and perhaps later on in another debate, with a different person, agree on a
different definition.

- Oliver
 
D

Darryl L. Pierce

Sorry to not reply sooner, I was off with my wife having a baby girl on
the 17th.

No, I wasn't lying, nor was I impugning your reputation. I was merely
calling on you to _support_ your claim. It's called being _skeptical_
and using _critical thinking_, something I would suggest everybody do.
You take that as a personal challenge, then that's your problem, not
mine.

IBM has no control over operations or direction here. They made an
investment 7 years ago, but in what? Buying RH common stock, or in
something else like, say, entitlements? IBM has a _relationship_, but
that's completely different from _ownership_?

Rather than the daft attempts at slamming me personally and grasping at
something to claim I was inconsistent, you might to objectively examine
the facts rather than jumping to conclusions based on some preconceived
notions.
 
D

Darryl L. Pierce

BTW, in your second link there are listed the majority stock holders of
RH. Where's IBM in that list? If they own more than FMR, as you
suggested, then why aren't they presented?
 

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