What makes a senior developer?

J

John Bailo

OK a bit of a duff question but it seems that everyone I work with is a
"senior" developer. Now I've been working with Java for over 5 years I
don't think that I would class myself as senior in the same way as I
looked up to developers when I began. So what are peoples thoughts on
this? If this is inappropriate forum for this discussion let me know
what an appropriate forum would be.


Too nerdy for management.

Too young to retire.
 
S

Simon Brooke

John Bailo said:
Too nerdy for management.

Too young to retire.

That's me!

--
(e-mail address removed) (Simon Brooke) http://www.jasmine.org.uk/~simon/
; gif ye hes forget our auld plane Scottis quhilk your mother lerit you,
; in tymes cuming I sall wryte to you my mind in Latin, for I am nocht
; acquyntit with your Southeron
;; Letter frae Ninian Winyet tae John Knox datit 27t October 1563
 
S

Simon Brooke

Patricia said:
"10 programming languages mastered or 20 projects finished..." seems an
excessively demanding requirement.

I don't qualify, and my job title was "senior programmer analyst" about
twenty-five years ago.

Hell, my title was "Savant Fellow in Computing" twenty years ago[1]. Mind
you I've probably forgotten ten programming languages...

[1] I kid you not. 'Savant' was the name of the company who sponsored the
fellowship, but I kind of liked the title.
 
S

Simon Brooke

Arne Vajhøj said:
Different places means different conventions.

I would define a senior developer as one that does not
need any supervision.

I would define a 'developer' as one who does not need any supervision. I
would define a developer who did need supervision a 'trainee' or else
as 'out of here'.
 
M

Mike Schilling

Simon Brooke said:
I would define a 'developer' as one who does not need any supervision. I
would define a developer who did need supervision a 'trainee' or else
as 'out of here'.

I tend to agree. I'd define seniority in terms of how large a project I'd
assign someone to do without day-to-day supervision.
 
G

Guest

Simon said:
I would define a 'developer' as one who does not need any supervision. I
would define a developer who did need supervision a 'trainee' or else
as 'out of here'.

Now - I don't know what you do or what kind of people you hire.

But in my experience most developers need some supervision
for several years.

Arne
 
T

Thomas Hawtin

Arne said:
Now - I don't know what you do or what kind of people you hire.

But in my experience most developers need some supervision
for several years.

I think it entirely depends upon who you hire.

In my first job I was in charge of development of the (small) division's
product. Joined a week later by the best programmer I have worked with,
who likewise was starting his first programming job.

The vast majority of companies aren't quite so smart about hiring. If a
developer still needs "supervision" after six months, I doubt if they
will ever become competent.

Tom Hawtin
 
C

Chris Uppal

Simon said:
I would define a 'developer' as one who does not need any supervision. I
would define a developer who did need supervision a 'trainee' or else
as 'out of here'.

You are not taking title-creep into account. Once a "chef" was the C-in-C of a
big kitchen, now it's anyone who cooks for money. Once a "referee" was the
person in charge of the match, now it's anyone who hangs around the pitch but
isn't associated with either side (except in Italy ;-). Once a "star" was the
rare actor/ress who could pull in the crowds, now it is anyone who has more
than a couple of lines to say. I could go on, but I'm sure that you can see
the drift ;-)

I agree that "developer" /should/ imply adequacy -- but then I think "adequate"
is one of the strongest possible (positive) judgements one can make of
anything/anyone. But that too has eroded, and now is mostly taken to imply
"only just barely fit for purpose -- if you're not fussy".

-- chris
 
G

Guest

Thomas said:
I think it entirely depends upon who you hire.
The vast majority of companies aren't quite so smart about hiring. If a
developer still needs "supervision" after six months, I doubt if they
will ever become competent.

My experience is that is usually takes 3-5 years until they fully
understand the context.

Maybe we have an unusual big context.

Arne
 
S

Simon Brooke

Thomas said:
I think it entirely depends upon who you hire.

In my first job I was in charge of development of the (small) division's
product. Joined a week later by the best programmer I have worked with,
who likewise was starting his first programming job.

The vast majority of companies aren't quite so smart about hiring. If a
developer still needs "supervision" after six months, I doubt if they
will ever become competent.

To be honest, the best programmer I ever hired - a person I really enjoyed
working with and with whom I had a very creative working relationship,
which resulted in some very good software getting shipped - had quite
severe drink and depression problems. I knew this when I hired him. He'd
just failed a Comp Sci degree at Cambridge, but I knew from one of his
tutors whom I knew from a language standards committee we were both on
that the guy was good. So I hired him.

At work, he needed no supervision. His work was consistently better than
mine, and I learned a lot from him. But his private life did need some
supervision. Occasionally I needed to go round to his house and drag him
protesting out of bed to get him to work... which is not what a technical
director is normally supposed to do, I agree, but it worked for him and it
worked for me.

It's whatever gets the job done, after all.

--
(e-mail address removed) (Simon Brooke) http://www.jasmine.org.uk/~simon/
Ye hypocrites! are these your pranks? To murder men and give God thanks?
Desist, for shame! Proceed no further: God won't accept your thanks for
murther
-- Robert Burns, 'Thanksgiving For a National Victory'
 
S

Simon Brooke

Arne Vajhøj said:
Now - I don't know what you do or what kind of people you hire.

But in my experience most developers need some supervision
for several years.

Well, to be honest I don't hire anyone any more; I don't run a team these
days. And I have hired people who needed supervision, but I didn't keep
them long. If people can't be trusted to be given a problem and go away
and solve it and come back with the solution, then what use are they?

Obviously you may need to point them at where to find out what standards
you expect them to conform to and how you expect them to interact with the
rest of the team, but... if someone is taking more of my time than a few
minutes chat every day and an fortnightly code review, then they aren't
saving me time. And if they aren't saving me time, what's the point of
paying their wages?
 
A

andrewmcdonagh

OK a bit of a duff question but it seems that everyone I work with is a
"senior" developer. Now I've been working with Java for over 5 years I
don't think that I would class myself as senior in the same way as I
looked up to developers when I began. So what are peoples thoughts on
this? If this is inappropriate forum for this discussion let me know
what an appropriate forum would be.

As a hiring manager, I define Senior Developers as those who can help
lead and mentor other less-able developers*. Senior developers also
tend to be able to understand the entire system quicker and more
thoroughly than other developers, plus are able to know when to apply
different technologies or approaches to an existing system.

Andrew
* Less-able does not always mean few-years development exposure - I
have encountered numerous people who have only 2 or 3 years work
experience and yet are far better than others with 10+ years. As a
result I long ago stopped looking at work duration as a marker for
competency.
 
T

Thomas Hawtin

andrewmcdonagh said:
As a hiring manager, I define Senior Developers as those who can help
lead and mentor other less-able developers*. Senior developers also
tend to be able to understand the entire system quicker and more
thoroughly than other developers, plus are able to know when to apply
different technologies or approaches to an existing system.

Isn't it just wordplay?

I saw this the other day:

http://blogs.sun.com/danmas/entry/staff_engineers

From which we can learn:

o Software Engineers do not apply professional skills ensuring that
the project, program or company is successful.

o Software Engineers are unaffected by assuming responsibility.

o Software Engineers cannot anticipate, recognise and deal with problems.

o Software Engineers are not responsible for the quality and delivery
of projects.

A funny thing is that as more job title changed from Software Developer
to Software Engineer to Senior Software Engineer, my responsibilities
became less and less. None now, of course.
* Less-able does not always mean few-years development exposure - I
have encountered numerous people who have only 2 or 3 years work
experience and yet are far better than others with 10+ years. As a
result I long ago stopped looking at work duration as a marker for
competency.

The results of the code wars tally with my experience. Most developers
do as little thinking as possible, and give up learning at the earliest
opportunity.

Tom Hawtin
 
A

andrewmcdonagh

Isn't it just wordplay?

Not sure what you mean?

All I'm trying to say to the op was that 'Senior' usually (IME) means
those developers who can also lead a team (and therefore mentor) to
ensure a project is delivered successfully (i.e. on time or scope, plus
high quality)

snipped
Most developers do as little thinking as possible, and give up learning at the earliest
opportunity.

A lot do yes, but not all, and those that do tend to get stuck in a
role or job (or lack of) because of that.
 
P

Patricia Shanahan

Thomas Hawtin wrote:
....
The results of the code wars tally with my experience. Most developers
do as little thinking as possible, and give up learning at the earliest
opportunity.
....

But, given the nature of the computer industry, my assumption
is that the "earliest opportunity" for me to stop learning about
computers will be after I retire.

For most of my jobs, "as little thinking as possible" has involved some
of the hardest problem solving I've ever done, far harder than getting a
mathematics degree.

Patricia
 
J

Jeffrey Schwab

Simon said:
To be honest, the best programmer I ever hired - a person I really enjoyed
working with and with whom I had a very creative working relationship,
which resulted in some very good software getting shipped - had quite
severe drink and depression problems. I knew this when I hired him. He'd
just failed a Comp Sci degree at Cambridge, but I knew from one of his
tutors whom I knew from a language standards committee we were both on
that the guy was good. So I hired him.

At work, he needed no supervision. His work was consistently better than
mine, and I learned a lot from him. But his private life did need some
supervision. Occasionally I needed to go round to his house and drag him
protesting out of bed to get him to work... which is not what a technical
director is normally supposed to do, I agree, but it worked for him and it
worked for me.

It's whatever gets the job done, after all.

That's encouraging. For a lot of people, those sorts of problems are a
professional death sentence. It's good to know that at least some folks
are willing to take on the non-traditional responsibilities that come
with hiring an alcoholic or severely depressed employee.
 
R

richardsosborn

OK a bit of a duff question but it seems that everyone I work with is a
"senior" developer. Now I've been working with Java for over 5 years I
don't think that I would class myself as senior in the same way as I
looked up to developers when I began. So what are peoples thoughts on
this? If this is inappropriate forum for this discussion let me know
what an appropriate forum would be.


i've found people begin to label you "senior" when you pass five
or six years experience. some still call that mid-level. everyone
and every place is different. some places will still call you an
"analyst"
at any level.
 

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