what % of users can see frames?

D

Derek Clarkson

Hi Andrew,
I can't say that frames are evil, but they do tend to polarise web masters.
My opinion is that like the much maligned GOTO statement, they have their
place and understanding where that is is the key. For example, I used
frames on my old site because my ISP could not provide me with any server
scripting support. So frames where the only way I could construct a site
without repeating the core content on every single document. Obviously a
maintenance headache.

However if you web server does have scripting support then I would suggest
avoiding frames for many of the reasons supplied by other people. My own
preference for the type of layouts that frames provide is to use sever side
scripting and CSS to control the position of the relevant data. CSS
positioning is still very much in flux as many browsers tend to implement
things slightly differently, but over all I find it easy to work with.

Hope this helps.
 
A

ANDREW MITCHELL

Hi all -

I am interested in building a simple site that 90%+ of web users can view.
If I use frames, will I disqualify a substantial number of users? Are there
still people out there using browsers that don't support frames?

Thanks for your help.

Best,
A
 
B

brucie

in post: <
ANDREW MITCHELL said:
I am interested in building a simple site that 90%+ of web users can view.
If I use frames,

don't use frames!

http://html-faq.com/htmlframes/?framesareevil
http://homepage.ntlworld.com/l_vajzovic/tom/web/frames.html
http://www.karlcore.com/articles/article.php?id=2
http://david.us-lot.org/www/frames/
will I disqualify a substantial number of users?

frame support isn't really an issue if you do them properly but by their
very nature they're rarely a method worth considering implementing.
 
M

Mark Parnell

B

brucie

in post: <
Derek Clarkson said:
ISP could not provide me with any server scripting support So frames
where the only way I could construct a site without repeating the
core content on every single document.

you could have used preprocessing. a much better and easier solution
than frames.
 
M

mscir

Would you explain this further? I have about 29k of javascript menu I'd
like to avoid loading for each and every page. Suggested reading/url?
 
M

Mark Parnell

Would you explain this further? I have about 29k of javascript menu I'd
like to avoid loading for each and every page. Suggested reading/url?

In that case, put your javascript in a separate file, and link to it
from each page.

<script src="yourfile.js" type="text/javascript"></script>
 
L

Lauri Raittila

[brucie:preprocessor]
Would you explain this further?

Preprosessor is tool that you can use in your home machine, it ads stuff
automatically according to some rules. I haven't used any publicly
available, so I can't comment them. But preprosessing saves huge times,
and you are server independent (but somewhat preprosessor dependent ;-).
I have about 29k of javascript menu I'd
like to avoid loading for each and every page. Suggested reading/url?

Hm. 29k javascript menu is likely to be bigger problem than most frames.
Frames are just very annoying to use to most people, js menu might not
work at all and it is propably hard to use as well. Try using it whiout
mouse, for example. Of course there is exeptions, where it might make
sence, but I have never seen one used then...

(of course you can use external js file, it will be cached.)
 
M

mscir

Looking for a way to avoid frames but still keep my 29k js menu...
google found this:

========================================================================

http://www.javascriptkit.com/javatutors/efficientjs.shtml

Tip 2: Cache your scripts!

You've "cashed in" your objects...another way to enhance script
performance is the cache the entire script, by including it in a .js
file. The technique causes the browser to load the script in question
only once, and recall it from cache should the page be reloaded or
revisited.

<script src="imagescript.js"></script>

Use script caching when a script is extremely large, or embedded across
multiple pages.

========================================================================

Is this right? After a javascript menu is downloaded once (2 .js files),
it will be loaded from the cache (local memory) every time the user
loads a page that uses that menu?

Are there cache size limitations, such that downloading a large image
from one page will replace the menu code in the cache, forcing it to be
downloaded again?

Thanks,
Mike
 
R

rf

ANDREW MITCHELL said:
Hi all -

I am interested in building a simple site that 90%+ of web users can view.
If I use frames, will I disqualify a substantial number of users? Are there
still people out there using browsers that don't support frames?

Over at my house 100% of myself can see frames with 80% of my browsers. Lynx
is the odd one out.

However over at my house 100% of myself are royally pissed off with sites
that use frames. They are usually so badly done as to be a pain in the arse
to use. Even when they are well done the site is still quite hard to use,
obscuring content and so on.

Give me a single continuous page anyday.

Cheers
Richard.
 
W

Whitecrest

I can't say that frames are evil, but they do tend to polarise web masters.
My opinion is that like the much maligned GOTO statement, they have their
place and understanding where that is is the key....

This is probably the BEST, description of frames I have seen! Of
course, the description could also be extended to Javascript, Flash,
Multimedia. etc....

Each has its place on the Web. The problem is people in this forum tend
to disagree where that place it. (And it is a moving target)

But never the less, great description!
 
W

Whitecrest

I am interested in building a simple site that 90%+ of web users can view...

You do know, the answer to this question really does depend on the
content you are providing, and who you are providing it to. Is this a
regional web site (say a real estate site) and entertainment site (say a
tribute site to a game, movie or person) A personal page? A kids page?

All of these factors are involved in making your decision.

YMMV
 
R

rf

mscir said:
Would you explain this further? I have about 29k of javascript menu I'd
like to avoid loading for each and every page. Suggested reading/url?

Oh My &Deity;. 29K of javascript?

Delete the whole bloody thing and put in a simple HTML menu.

Cheers
Richard.
 
M

Michael Fesser

Whitecrest said:
[Frames, JS, Flash]
Each has its place on the Web. The problem is people in this forum tend
to disagree where that place it. (And it is a moving target)

It doesn't matter where that place is, as long as it's far away from me.

SCNR
Micha
 
W

Whitecrest

[Frames, JS, Flash]
Each has its place on the Web. The problem is people in this forum tend
to disagree where that place it. (And it is a moving target)
It doesn't matter where that place is, as long as it's far away from me.

And it is a good thing that the web is so big that we can both have
exactly what we want.
 

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