What programming language

Discussion in 'ASP .Net' started by Jared, Oct 13, 2004.

  1. Jared

    Jared Guest

    This is going to seem like a generic question that has been posed 1001
    times and is probably very subjective, but I need some real world
    answers, rather than textbook answers.

    Let me give my background in 2-3 sentences:
    1. I am a developer who has been programming for about 3 years and
    have done the following:
    - Java (1 year experience)
    - Visual Basic 6 (Done quite a few in house utility and add on
    programs)
    - 4th Dimension (1 1/2 years worth of work doing client server
    programming)
    - ASP (not ASP.NET) using vbscript and MYSQL
    I currently work for a company doing advanced 4D programming and am
    quite good at it.
    2. I own Visual Studio 6.0 PRO, Visual Studio .NET 2003 Ent. and
    JBuilder 6
    I have done my homework on the "advantages" to all approaches, but I
    want the real world answer....AND HERE IS MY QUESTION:

    What technology would be a good fit with my background and experience
    that would enable me to make a go at trying to go on my own? I need
    something that is going to be RAD, but still be efficient and
    professional looking (not Java), while not cositng me a bunch of money
    to get started. I would also like to note that the only .NET apps that
    I've seen seemed slow and bloated like a Java app compared to a
    compiled VB 6 or VC++ app.

    Thanks in advance for your responses.

    Jared
     
    Jared, Oct 13, 2004
    #1
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  2. Jared

    Elliott Back Guest

    Jared wrote:
    > This is going to seem like a generic question that has been posed 1001
    > times and is probably very subjective, but I need some real world
    > answers, rather than textbook answers.
    >
    > Let me give my background in 2-3 sentences:
    > 1. I am a developer who has been programming for about 3 years and
    > have done the following:
    > - Java (1 year experience)
    > - Visual Basic 6 (Done quite a few in house utility and add on
    > programs)
    > - 4th Dimension (1 1/2 years worth of work doing client server
    > programming)
    > - ASP (not ASP.NET) using vbscript and MYSQL
    > I currently work for a company doing advanced 4D programming and am
    > quite good at it.
    > 2. I own Visual Studio 6.0 PRO, Visual Studio .NET 2003 Ent. and
    > JBuilder 6
    > I have done my homework on the "advantages" to all approaches, but I
    > want the real world answer....AND HERE IS MY QUESTION:
    >
    > What technology would be a good fit with my background and experience
    > that would enable me to make a go at trying to go on my own? I need
    > something that is going to be RAD, but still be efficient and
    > professional looking (not Java), while not cositng me a bunch of money
    > to get started. I would also like to note that the only .NET apps that
    > I've seen seemed slow and bloated like a Java app compared to a
    > compiled VB 6 or VC++ app.
    >
    > Thanks in advance for your responses.
    >
    > Jared


    Microsoft's C# is quite fast, and is a Rapid App. Developement
    environment as well. The .NET API is as rich as javas, and the typesafe
    language, as well as the great IDE make it a pleasure, I gind, to use.
    Speedwise, it's way faster than java, from what I can tell. The GUI is
    sharp and responsive--it's the best way to write a Windows App.

    --
    Thanks,
    Elliott C. B├Ąck
    ---------------------------------
    www.elliottback.com/blog/
    www.spreadIE.com
     
    Elliott Back, Oct 13, 2004
    #2
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  3. Focus on Learning the framework - that's the real challenge in .NET. I flip
    back and forth between VB.NET and C# all the time, the power of the IDE is
    enough to get you through that, but understanding memory management,
    security, Boxing etc, that's the real challenge. Once you learn the
    framework you can learn either, both or any other .NET language very
    quickly.

    --
    W.G. Ryan MVP (Windows Embedded)

    TiBA Solutions
    www.tibasolutions.com | www.devbuzz.com | www.knowdotnet.com
    "Jared" <> wrote in message
    news:...
    > This is going to seem like a generic question that has been posed 1001
    > times and is probably very subjective, but I need some real world
    > answers, rather than textbook answers.
    >
    > Let me give my background in 2-3 sentences:
    > 1. I am a developer who has been programming for about 3 years and
    > have done the following:
    > - Java (1 year experience)
    > - Visual Basic 6 (Done quite a few in house utility and add on
    > programs)
    > - 4th Dimension (1 1/2 years worth of work doing client server
    > programming)
    > - ASP (not ASP.NET) using vbscript and MYSQL
    > I currently work for a company doing advanced 4D programming and am
    > quite good at it.
    > 2. I own Visual Studio 6.0 PRO, Visual Studio .NET 2003 Ent. and
    > JBuilder 6
    > I have done my homework on the "advantages" to all approaches, but I
    > want the real world answer....AND HERE IS MY QUESTION:
    >
    > What technology would be a good fit with my background and experience
    > that would enable me to make a go at trying to go on my own? I need
    > something that is going to be RAD, but still be efficient and
    > professional looking (not Java), while not cositng me a bunch of money
    > to get started. I would also like to note that the only .NET apps that
    > I've seen seemed slow and bloated like a Java app compared to a
    > compiled VB 6 or VC++ app.
    >
    > Thanks in advance for your responses.
    >
    > Jared
     
    W.G. Ryan eMVP, Oct 13, 2004
    #3
  4. Elliott Back <> wrote:

    <snip>

    > Speedwise, it's way faster than java, from what I can tell.


    I would suggest that either you haven't used a modern JRE, or you
    haven't seen well-written Java programs then.

    Java has a slower startup time (it's improving, but it's still
    relatively slow) but is roughly comparable for speed for most purposes.
    There are some places where .NET wins, and some where Java wins.

    --
    Jon Skeet - <>
    http://www.pobox.com/~skeet
    If replying to the group, please do not mail me too
     
    Jon Skeet [C# MVP], Oct 13, 2004
    #4
  5. Jared

    Cor Ligthert Guest

    Jared,

    The languages C# and VBNet are almost the same as well as the results from
    that.

    I keep it for the moment to VBNet because I have proven that I am good in
    making typos.
    VBNet helps me a lot with that.

    Otherwise I would not know why I should choose for the one or for the other,
    they both have a lot of legacy stuff as every language, what when you are
    busy let you think why do I have to type that stuff, it has no sense.

    However keep in mind that
    VBNet and C# are much more the same than VB6 and VBNet are, as Bill somewhat
    wrote when you know one of them it is very easy to switch to the other.
    (However than making a lot of typos)

    Just my thought,

    Cor

    "Jared" <> schreef in bericht
    news:...
    > This is going to seem like a generic question that has been posed 1001
    > times and is probably very subjective, but I need some real world
    > answers, rather than textbook answers.
    >
    > Let me give my background in 2-3 sentences:
    > 1. I am a developer who has been programming for about 3 years and
    > have done the following:
    > - Java (1 year experience)
    > - Visual Basic 6 (Done quite a few in house utility and add on
    > programs)
    > - 4th Dimension (1 1/2 years worth of work doing client server
    > programming)
    > - ASP (not ASP.NET) using vbscript and MYSQL
    > I currently work for a company doing advanced 4D programming and am
    > quite good at it.
    > 2. I own Visual Studio 6.0 PRO, Visual Studio .NET 2003 Ent. and
    > JBuilder 6
    > I have done my homework on the "advantages" to all approaches, but I
    > want the real world answer....AND HERE IS MY QUESTION:
    >
    > What technology would be a good fit with my background and experience
    > that would enable me to make a go at trying to go on my own? I need
    > something that is going to be RAD, but still be efficient and
    > professional looking (not Java), while not cositng me a bunch of money
    > to get started. I would also like to note that the only .NET apps that
    > I've seen seemed slow and bloated like a Java app compared to a
    > compiled VB 6 or VC++ app.
    >
    > Thanks in advance for your responses.
    >
    > Jared
     
    Cor Ligthert, Oct 13, 2004
    #5
  6. Jared

    Jared Guest

    I am not concerned about VB.net vs C#. I understand that running on
    the framework makes both of those about the same in the performance
    department. I have worked with VB6 and Java so VB.NET and C# syntax
    are both quite farmiliar. The ultimate question is....is it better to
    stick with VB6 for RAD projects? Is there are technologies that would
    be better that aren't going to cost me more than I've already spent on
    dev tools?

    Thanks,

    Jared
     
    Jared, Oct 13, 2004
    #6
  7. Jared

    Jared Guest

    I don't want to make this a .NET or MS vs Java question. I am simply
    after a cost effective solution to go with when starting my own
    business. I found Java to be very clunky in the interface. I really
    enjoyed my year programming in Java, but hated writing Interface code.
    Besides my limited experience, which it seems that I would need a lot
    more of to create a competitive app, I have never yet seen a Java app
    that flows nicely. If this is possible and you don't want to turn this
    into a big and unneccessary debate please feel free to email me and
    give me some suggestions.

    To everyone else that reads this post and is replying, please remember
    that this post is intended to help me and others like me understand
    what technology has worked for the small or single person business out
    there.

    Thanks again for everyones response so far.
     
    Jared, Oct 13, 2004
    #7
  8. Jared

    Cor Ligthert Guest

    Jared,

    This is a difficult question, you never know what there is tomorrow.

    When it is about VB6 or VBNet the answer is in my opinion simple, VBNet is
    much more productive.

    And the OOP posibilities from all Net programs give you the possibilities
    for an endless amount of self created classes, while the amount of Net base
    classes are in my opinion often for almost everybody a suprise.

    Sometimes you see documentated class which exist already very long, however
    even when you are very active in this dotNet newsgroup never saw before.

    Some standard classes are that good, that making them yourself is a waist of
    time and in my opinion only good for hobbyists.

    Just my thought,

    Cor
     
    Cor Ligthert, Oct 13, 2004
    #8
  9. Jared

    John Baker Guest

    Jared wrote:
    > I am not concerned about VB.net vs C#. I understand that running on
    > the framework makes both of those about the same in the performance
    > department.


    Followups set to alt.computer.consultants

    You mentioned you were going into business - I'm going to assume that
    means analysis, design, and programming on a contract basis.

    I've been on my own for 4 years, and have worked for consulting firms
    since 1992. Yet I am still just 1 person, so take what I say with a
    grain of salt. Other peoples' milage may vary.

    Since being on my own, what development tool I use has more often than
    not been dictated by the client.

    In the minority of cases where they have looked to me for that decision,
    it has usually been a small shop (or small department in large shop whom
    IT there is ignoring, most often due to being overworked).

    Given that their needs were usually not complex, I never saw an example
    where they couldn't be covered well with something as simple as MS
    Access with either native Jet or SQL Server backend. For some reason my
    clients have shied away from Web interfaces. Technical considerations
    count, but also remember you won't always be there. You need to keep in
    mind how easy it will be for your client to find someone to update your
    work after you've moved on.

    It is usually only larger, more complex projects that will need anything
    more. I have never landed one of these as a one-man-shop, though I used
    to do them all the time when I worked for a large firm. (Then again, my
    marketing skills are sub-par I think.)

    In fact, my presence here in the dotnet groups is due largely to the
    fact that I am learning it in order to take my shingle down and work for
    someone else again. The money has been great, but I miss the challenge
    of more complex projects, and I feel my skillset is starting to deteriorate.

    Again, YMMV.
     
    John Baker, Oct 13, 2004
    #9
  10. Jared

    Jared Guest

    Thanks to all for your responses.

    One last question regarding .Net. What are the chances that MS would
    through in a curve ball and start charging the developers a distro fee
    for running there program on the .NET framework? This would obviously
    hugely degrade the desirability to both the developer and the end
    user.


    Jared
     
    Jared, Oct 14, 2004
    #10
  11. "Jared" <> wrote in message
    news:...
    > Thanks to all for your responses.
    >
    > One last question regarding .Net. What are the chances that MS would
    > through in a curve ball and start charging the developers a distro fee
    > for running there program on the .NET framework? This would obviously
    > hugely degrade the desirability to both the developer and the end
    > user.
    >


    I'd say between unlikely and non-existant. It do anyone any good.
     
    Daniel O'Connell [C# MVP], Oct 14, 2004
    #11
  12. Jared wrote:
    > What technology would be a good fit with my background and experience
    > that would enable me to make a go at trying to go on my own?


    Depends what the end product and the client base will be:

    1) Windows-only desktop apps for any company type:
    Stick with .NET. You can just have them installed on the users machines and
    run without having to worry about JDK / JVM versions etc.

    2) Platform independent desktop apps for any company type:
    Java

    3) Web applications for large corporations:
    Ask what they support first, as they will either have a Windows setup or,
    most likely a Java (e.g. Tomcat) setup, so either .NET or Servlets / JSP.

    4) Web applications for small companies / single people
    PHP / Perl, because they will probably be hosting their site on a cheap
    commercial shared server running Linux with something like cPanel.

    In the end, I think the answer is to not limit yourself to one technology.
    Learn the important ones which will cover you for any eventuality (Any .NET
    language, Java & Perl will cover you for most situations).
     
    Leon Mayne [MVP], Oct 14, 2004
    #12
  13. Jared

    Jared Guest

    This is an excellent point. I think you are right. The key is to know
    the most powerful and popular technologies well. I've decided to go
    with C#.Net and a Java mix depending on my client base. This will give
    me a large market share and RAD abilities.

    Thanks to all for your input.
     
    Jared, Oct 15, 2004
    #13
  14. Jared,
    1. Forget VB6.0 if you want to enter in the world of OOP. You have worked
    with non OOP and OOP languages so you may know this exactly.
    2. If you like to work with Microsoft products then i will suggest to choose
    ..Net rather than VB. The reason you might know.
    3. .Net has rich API like in Java. Both of these platforms are for the same
    purpose. But if you want to develop Platform independent application then go
    for Java. Java is rich by APIs and also you will get now Eclipse (opensource
    platform) free which gives RAD like VS.Net with debugging and each kind of
    facitilty so you can develop faster console app to J2EE apps using Eclipse
    (cost: ITS FREE).
    And if you want to develop an application that supports multiple languages
    like VB.Net, C#, J#, COBOL.NET etc... then go for .Net...
    Performance wise,
    ..Net and Java, both has some of its pros and cons.
    But i found that Resources required to start up of the application is more
    consumed by Java compared to .Net but as well running time resources
    consumed by Java is less than .Net base app. (But for .Net you have to pay a
    lot compare to Java)

    I hope, this answer satisfy you.
    If anything perticular, Please ask...

    Regards,
    Mahesh Devjibhai Dhola
    "Empower yourself...."

    "Jared" <> wrote in message
    news:...
    > This is going to seem like a generic question that has been posed 1001
    > times and is probably very subjective, but I need some real world
    > answers, rather than textbook answers.
    >
    > Let me give my background in 2-3 sentences:
    > 1. I am a developer who has been programming for about 3 years and
    > have done the following:
    > - Java (1 year experience)
    > - Visual Basic 6 (Done quite a few in house utility and add on
    > programs)
    > - 4th Dimension (1 1/2 years worth of work doing client server
    > programming)
    > - ASP (not ASP.NET) using vbscript and MYSQL
    > I currently work for a company doing advanced 4D programming and am
    > quite good at it.
    > 2. I own Visual Studio 6.0 PRO, Visual Studio .NET 2003 Ent. and
    > JBuilder 6
    > I have done my homework on the "advantages" to all approaches, but I
    > want the real world answer....AND HERE IS MY QUESTION:
    >
    > What technology would be a good fit with my background and experience
    > that would enable me to make a go at trying to go on my own? I need
    > something that is going to be RAD, but still be efficient and
    > professional looking (not Java), while not cositng me a bunch of money
    > to get started. I would also like to note that the only .NET apps that
    > I've seen seemed slow and bloated like a Java app compared to a
    > compiled VB 6 or VC++ app.
    >
    > Thanks in advance for your responses.
    >
    > Jared
     
    Mahesh Devjibhai Dhola, Oct 16, 2004
    #14
  15. Hello Jared,

    Did you have a look at the latest Eclipse V3 Framework, coupled with their
    visual studio designer?

    Main advantages are:
    Free and extensible IDE, of BEST quality (Erich Gamma and Kent Beck are
    behind and IBM is paying ;-)

    Competitive GUI designer based on Eclipse plugins , e.g. besides the
    Instantiations WindowBuilder(commercial) you have now the Eclipse Visual
    Designer project (free), this provides for healthy competition.
    If you are concerned by the (relative) unresponsiveness of the Swing GUI,
    have a look to the SWT widgets. Eclipse itself is written with SWT and its by
    no way slow. Now consider that well written Java app are quite fast. Did you
    have a look to JEdit (a GPL programming Editor) ?


    And regarding startup time, this was a main concern addressed now by Java SE
    5.

    Hope that's help

    Regards,

    Mel ()

    "Jared" wrote:

    > I don't want to make this a .NET or MS vs Java question. I am simply
    > after a cost effective solution to go with when starting my own
    > business. I found Java to be very clunky in the interface. I really
    > enjoyed my year programming in Java, but hated writing Interface code.
    > Besides my limited experience, which it seems that I would need a lot
    > more of to create a competitive app, I have never yet seen a Java app
    > that flows nicely. If this is possible and you don't want to turn this
    > into a big and unneccessary debate please feel free to email me and
    > give me some suggestions.
    >
    > To everyone else that reads this post and is replying, please remember
    > that this post is intended to help me and others like me understand
    > what technology has worked for the small or single person business out
    > there.
    >
    > Thanks again for everyones response so far.
    >
     
    =?Utf-8?B?bWVsYWphcmEgKG1lbGFqYXJhQGhvdG1haWwuY29t, Oct 19, 2004
    #15
  16. Jared

    Jared Guest

    "Mahesh Devjibhai Dhola" <> wrote in message news:<>...
    [.......]
    > Performance wise,
    > .Net and Java, both has some of its pros and cons.
    > But i found that Resources required to start up of the application is more
    > consumed by Java compared to .Net but as well running time resources
    > consumed by Java is less than .Net base app. (But for .Net you have to pay a
    > lot compare to Java)
    >
    > I hope, this answer satisfy you.
    > If anything perticular, Please ask...
    >
    > Regards,
    > Mahesh Devjibhai Dhola
    > "Empower yourself...."
    >


    Thanks Mahesh,

    Sorry, but could you elaborate on the performance differences that you
    have found between .NET and Java. I am interested in both. What I
    understand from what you've said is the initial start up is slowerin
    Java, but overall performance is better post startup??????


    Thanks!
     
    Jared, Oct 20, 2004
    #16
  17. Jared

    Guest

    I am not a developer but have done a some small development work on my
    own...hacking together Perl and Linux shell commands to solve a few
    Linux problems. I even have one small app online...not the full
    application but you can see what I have beewn involved in. Follow the
    URL below if you are interested.

    http://mywebpage.netscape.com/showflash/index.html

    I want to move up the system administrative path to a systems
    engineering position within the administrative path. I should have
    one or more scripting languages under my belt. Although the following
    link speaks with regard to Unix/Linux administration you of course
    know that to become a more capable admin a development language is
    necessary.

    http://www.sage.org/pubs/8_jobs/core.mm

    I need to know what language to use in the Microsoft programming
    domain for system administration. Would I use, C, C++, C#, .Net,...?
    Which .Net...what books, etc.

    I say Microsoft because I am now trying to use system administrative
    tools on the Microsoft platform and being able to administrate, push
    out security and better understand what a secure Microsoft system
    entails the better defined language for that problem I would think
    whould be a Microsoft language.

    The sytems may or may not be in a domain, hence they may or may not
    have Domain Controllers through which policy is implemented but I
    would like to use the shell tools and applications that are included
    in the Microsoft Server 2003 and XP Pro systems.


    Thanks
     
    , Oct 26, 2004
    #17
  18. Jared

    William Main Guest

    You could check out the scripting section on MSDN.COM and TECHNET.COM. There
    are lots of really good ADMIN scripts there and some tutorials.

    "" <> wrote in message
    news:...
    >I am not a developer but have done a some small development work on my
    > own...hacking together Perl and Linux shell commands to solve a few
    > Linux problems. I even have one small app online...not the full
    > application but you can see what I have beewn involved in. Follow the
    > URL below if you are interested.
    >
    > http://mywebpage.netscape.com/showflash/index.html
    >
    > I want to move up the system administrative path to a systems
    > engineering position within the administrative path. I should have
    > one or more scripting languages under my belt. Although the following
    > link speaks with regard to Unix/Linux administration you of course
    > know that to become a more capable admin a development language is
    > necessary.
    >
    > http://www.sage.org/pubs/8_jobs/core.mm
    >
    > I need to know what language to use in the Microsoft programming
    > domain for system administration. Would I use, C, C++, C#, .Net,...?
    > Which .Net...what books, etc.
    >
    > I say Microsoft because I am now trying to use system administrative
    > tools on the Microsoft platform and being able to administrate, push
    > out security and better understand what a secure Microsoft system
    > entails the better defined language for that problem I would think
    > whould be a Microsoft language.
    >
    > The sytems may or may not be in a domain, hence they may or may not
    > have Domain Controllers through which policy is implemented but I
    > would like to use the shell tools and applications that are included
    > in the Microsoft Server 2003 and XP Pro systems.
    >
    >
    > Thanks
     
    William Main, Dec 21, 2004
    #18
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