What software engineering jobs make the most money now?

  • Thread starter Thomas G. Marshall
  • Start date
T

Thomas G. Marshall

This is cross-posted because of the specific audience I wish to have
participate.

C'mon guys. Give up your secrets. What niche in the software world have
you found that is of very HIGH domestic demand? This probably goes for the
UK as well as US, since I think that many places are offshoring to india and
the like.

All glibness aside, there ought to be a serious of industries,
sub-industries, etc., that do not lend themselves to such movement overseas.

/And even out of these/ there ought to be a bunch that seem to always demand
top-dollar.

I understand why some of these things might be carefully guarded secrets,
but this really warrants a conversation for those less worried.
 
T

Tim Ward

Thomas G. Marshall said:
C'mon guys. Give up your secrets. What niche in the software world have
you found that is of very HIGH domestic demand?

Joke!! You seriously expect people to give information like that to their
competitors??
 
T

Thomas G. Marshall

Tim Ward said:
"Thomas G. Marshall"


Joke!! You seriously expect people to give information like that to
their competitors??

I don't "expect" anything. If you read my post, that should have been
clear.
 
R

Randy Howard

What niche in the software world have you found that is of very HIGH
domestic demand?

Experienced programmers that can get close to the metal, drivers, BIOS,
firmware, protocol stacks, concurrent programming, etc. Storage systems
(Fibre, infiniband, and the like also). Scientific and financial
applications for neural networks, real crypto (not snake oil), ...

This stuff isn't going anywhere until the 3rd world rent-a-body's get
FAR better. Especially the hardware level programming, as it is far
too time consuming and expensive to ship hardware all over the place,
particularly at proto stages, rework, etc.
/And even out of these/ there ought to be a bunch that seem to always demand
top-dollar.

Top-dollar comes from individual reputation, not category in most cases.
 
T

Thomas G. Marshall

Randy Howard said:
Experienced programmers that can get close to the metal, drivers,
BIOS, firmware, protocol stacks, concurrent programming, etc.
Storage systems (Fibre, infiniband, and the like also). Scientific
and financial applications for neural networks, real crypto (not
snake oil), ...

This stuff isn't going anywhere until the 3rd world rent-a-body's get
FAR better. Especially the hardware level programming, as it is far
too time consuming and expensive to ship hardware all over the place,
particularly at proto stages, rework, etc.


Top-dollar comes from individual reputation, not category in most
cases.

The category influences the liklihood that an individual of any given
reputation will receive more or less dollars.

That is, "in most cases", it is the category.
 
M

Michael Jørgensen

[I had to reword the subject, to avoid my news servers spam filter]

Thomas G. Marshall said:
Randy Howard <[email protected]> coughed up the following:

The category influences the liklihood that an individual of any given
reputation will receive more or less dollars.

That is, "in most cases", it is the category.

Are you looking to start a discussion, or are you seeking advice? I thought
the latter, and you've already received several serious responses. However,
you seem to consistently argue and contradict. Why?

-Michael.
 
R

Randy Howard

The category influences the liklihood that an individual of any given
reputation will receive more or less dollars.

That is, "in most cases", it is the category.

You seem to have a habit of trying to start discussions, asking for
opinion, then arguing against their opinions as if you have factual
evidence to the contrary. I'm curious if you think that's actually
productive, or merely self-entertaining?
 
M

Michael Borgwardt

Thomas said:
C'mon guys. Give up your secrets. What niche in the software world have
you found that is of very HIGH domestic demand? This probably goes for the
UK as well as US, since I think that many places are offshoring to india and
the like.

This isn't personal experience, and not the US or UK, but I've heard time and
time again that people with SAP knowledge make the most money among non-management
IT people.
 
B

beliavsky

Randy Howard said:
Experienced programmers that can get close to the metal, drivers, BIOS,
firmware, protocol stacks, concurrent programming, etc. Storage systems
(Fibre, infiniband, and the like also). Scientific and financial
applications for neural networks, real crypto (not snake oil), ...

This stuff isn't going anywhere until the 3rd world rent-a-body's get
FAR better. Especially the hardware level programming, as it is far
too time consuming and expensive to ship hardware all over the place,
particularly at proto stages, rework, etc.

I often see claims from American programmers that the "Third World"
programmers are weak, but evidence is never supplied. Phrases like
"3rd world rent-a-body's" sound bigoted -- they get paid money to
write code, just like me. It sounds like (understandable) bitterness
over lower-priced competition.
 
R

Randy Howard

I often see claims from American programmers that the "Third World"
programmers are weak, but evidence is never supplied. Phrases like
"3rd world rent-a-body's" sound bigoted -- they get paid money to
write code, just like me. It sounds like (understandable) bitterness
over lower-priced competition.

Yes, I was not clear enough and used short-hand, which was inflammatory.
There are no doubt professional programmers available in a lot of places
on the globe, I was speaking from personal knowledge however in the
specific areas to which I was referring in my post.

I have seen attempts by multiple very large hardware manufacturers to send
work to the "lower-priced competition". In cases where the work was pure
application development (with provided string tables, as translation issues
are still a major problem), scripting, web design, etc., they got variable,
but generally positive results in most cases. I am speaking primarily of
work sent to India, China and Taiwan.

In cases where platform work, drivers, firmware, BIOS, system management
internals, SMP/concurrency, etc. (I.e. code that all required physical
access to proto systems) and a deep and broad level of experience working
with such projects, hardware designers, analyzers, scopes, debuggers, etc.,
the results were, being kind, abysmal.

I suspect that in the event that those people work on similar projects
for quite a few years and learn how to do it properly (while doing so
for all practical purposes in a vacuum imposed by distance, time, language
and lack of mentorship barriers), that might change a decade from now.

For now, there is a clear divide in the type of work being done in those
countries versus that in countries where this has been more traditionally
performed.

Recent posts in this newsgroup and others imply that both students and
employees in several of those companies can not even *obtain*, much less
*afford* to buy modern textbooks on the few areas of this type of system
work that have information published on them. Even if they could, you
can't read a book like "Low-level hardware device drivers on SMP servers
for Dummies" and expect to know anything useful anyway. This stuff is
taught in the workplace, not in the university, and not read about in
books.

In short, there is no substitute for actually doing it. In this area of
software development, the proof is *always* left to the programmer, it
is almost never trivial, and the error handling code can never be
omitted for brevity.
 
T

Thomas G. Marshall

Michael Jørgensen said:
[I had to reword the subject, to avoid my news servers spam filter]

"Thomas G. Marshall"
Randy Howard <[email protected]> coughed up the
following:

The category influences the liklihood that an individual of any given
reputation will receive more or less dollars.

That is, "in most cases", it is the category.

Are you looking to start a discussion, or are you seeking advice? I
thought the latter,

There was no reason to think that. I was seeking a conversation, not for my
particular bennefit---I am certainly not seeking work. This was for the
bennefit for all.

and you've already received several serious responses.
SO?


However, you seem to consistently argue and contradict.
Why?

"Consistently argue and contradict?" Let's see:

1. Tim Ward:
Joke!! You seriously expect people to
give information like that to their competitors??

My response:
I don't "expect" anything. If you read my post, that
should have been clear.

2. Randy Howard:
Top-dollar comes from individual reputation, not
category in most cases.

My response:
The category influences the liklihood that an individual
of any given reputation will receive more or less dollars.
That is, "in most cases", it is the category.

3. beliavsky:
How elastic is your definition of "software engineering job"?

My response:
Very. I cannot predict what job type would be valuable
to others reading this.

So there have been 3 responses not including this one to you. Only #1 above
was contentious, and only slightly, and /only/ in response to a contentious
retort of his. Wow. Really "consistently arguing and contradicting"!!!!!

If you're interested in outright lying, find another venue.
 
T

Thomas G. Marshall

Randy Howard said:
You seem to have a habit of trying to start discussions, asking for
opinion, then arguing against their opinions as if you have factual
evidence to the contrary. I'm curious if you think that's actually
productive, or merely self-entertaining?

I'm sorry if I offended you.

I view it as productive. You stated something that I disagree with. I
stated why I disagreed with it.

And I argue with no less "factual evidence" than did you. These are
/opinions/.
 
T

Thomas G. Marshall

Michael Borgwardt said:
This isn't personal experience, and not the US or UK, but I've heard
time and time again that people with SAP knowledge make the most
money among non-management IT people.

"Service Advertising Protocol", or SAP the company?
 
R

Randy Howard

I'm sorry if I offended you.

Not offended, just confused.
I view it as productive. You stated something that I disagree with. I
stated why I disagreed with it.

The category certainly matters, but within any of them, the factors
I described determine the real pay for a specific individual.

It's also the case that a mediocre candidate in a "hot" category can
(and should in most cases) make less than a great candidate in a
less "popular" category. YMMV.
 
T

Thomas G. Marshall

Randy Howard <[email protected]> coughed up the following:

....[stomp]...
The category certainly matters, but within any of them, the factors
I described determine the real pay for a specific individual.

The way I would state it, would probably be the two statements in parallel:

Given any category, the individual's ability or reputation
determines the pay scale.
and
Given any individual's ability or reputation, the category
he's in determines the pay scale.

It's also the case that a mediocre candidate in a "hot" category can
(and should in most cases) make less than a great candidate in a
less "popular" category. YMMV.

Well, it's a challenge to sift through the difference between popularity and
demand. I'm hoping to get a collection of insights into sections of
engineering that seem to stay put, as well as a collection of jobs that have
a likelihood of commanding top dollar. Finding out the most commonly needed
(popular) jobs is not going to cut it when those jobs are too easily filled
for lower wages. Thank you globalization ;)

One of the sectors that I've found is software teaching. As a teaching
consultant, you are not in any real danger of competing against someone in
India. There is something to the face to face thing, at least for now. Of
course, if you're an instructor in a school, public or private, then that's
a different story all together---the guys in india might make more than you
anyway. :)
 
J

Joe Seigh

Randy said:
Experienced programmers that can get close to the metal, drivers, BIOS,
firmware, protocol stacks, concurrent programming, etc. Storage systems
(Fibre, infiniband, and the like also). Scientific and financial
applications for neural networks, real crypto (not snake oil), ...

I'd take concurrent programming out of that list. It's more of a general
skill. I haven't seen any demand for that. More for specific skills
and by the way if you know the difference between a semaphore and a lock
that's great as far as most employers are concerned. Don't even mention
any advanced concurrency concepts. It just confuses them and they think
your BSing them.

Joe Seigh
 
E

Edward G. Nilges

Thomas G. Marshall said:
This is cross-posted because of the specific audience I wish to have
participate.

C'mon guys. Give up your secrets. What niche in the software world have
you found that is of very HIGH domestic demand? This probably goes for the
UK as well as US, since I think that many places are offshoring to india and
the like.

All glibness aside, there ought to be a serious of industries,
sub-industries, etc., that do not lend themselves to such movement overseas.

/And even out of these/ there ought to be a bunch that seem to always demand
top-dollar.

I understand why some of these things might be carefully guarded secrets,
but this really warrants a conversation for those less worried.

I think it is a mistake to make professional choices based on money.

Unless you build an organization to control entry into the top-dollar
profession, the smell of money will attract more entrants who will
then depress earnings. This is economics 101.

Indeed, vast efforts in software are based EXCLUSIVELY on the fact
that software consultants were, at some point in the past, making the
big bucks, for these bucks were a hit on a balance sheet.

Read Softwar, a biography of Larry Ellison, the founder of Oracle. For
Oracle's customers an important goal happens to be using Oracle
unmodified and "out of the box" so as not to let "consultants" select
"best of breed" integration solutions.

This is because it's assumed these "consultants" will recommend their
friends' solutions and charge big money for integration glue that in
the final product, makes the resultant mess look nothing so much as
the spacecraft in Alien, dripping with excess Alien juice.

In my own lifetime, "consultant", owing the permission people gave
themselves under Reagan to be motivated exclusively by money, has
undergone an interesting evolution in computing.

It originally meant, in the 1950s, a vizier or wiseman employed by
Rand or somesuch profit-making (but, in the admittedly antique
Eisenhower-era songbook) public-spirited in a common effort against
extremism.

But in the 1980s, I increasingly encountered head-hunters who would
declare, as received fact, that a "consultant" in data processing
would NOT give unbiased advice to a client, that being a "consultant"
was instead figuring out what the most powerful clients wanted to
hear, and then saying it.

Today, in computing, a "consultant" is not a wiseman: he is a wiseguy
in the sense of the big-hair badabing regions of Long Guysland or
Joisey in the New York region, where many latter-day "consultants"
retire like Tony Soprano with the big bucks.

But note that the wiseguys are the exception and not the rule, for
corporations like Merrill-Lynch know very well when they are being had
by a bunch of wiseguys. The data system that represents the free lunch
for the wiseguys, who purport to "know" its secrets and to literally
hold the company hostage in place of either getting a real job or
actually learning computing science, is replaced.

If you want to make a lot of money in computing, get married and stay
married, and find a job you like with one company you like, and don't
quit for another job.

Financial guru Suze Orman puts it best. Truth makes money. The time is
past when ANY ONE programming language or operating system can be used
by an individual to hold a company hostage, and it is a LIE that any
one language can be used in this fashion.

In the 1990s, people (many of them with significant levels of
untreated math anxiety which made them strikingly ineffective)
thundered into Visual Basic 6 development for the corporation only to
find today that support is ending for VB-6 in preference to VB-Net,
because word to your mother was that they'd make the big bucks.

You make the big bucks, or really the only bucks worth making, by
doing what you love.

The scramble for top dollar produces systems that do not work, because
they are being built by people not for love of the game but for
financial reward.
 
S

Sudsy

Edward G. Nilges wrote:
Read Softwar, a biography of Larry Ellison, the founder of Oracle. For
Oracle's customers an important goal happens to be using Oracle
unmodified and "out of the box" so as not to let "consultants" select
"best of breed" integration solutions.

Ah, the one-size-fits-all approach. Interesting.

declare, as received fact, that a "consultant" in data processing
would NOT give unbiased advice to a client, that being a "consultant"
was instead figuring out what the most powerful clients wanted to
hear, and then saying it.

Another interesting observation, conveniently lacking in documentary
evidence.

But note that the wiseguys are the exception and not the rule, for
corporations like Merrill-Lynch know very well when they are being had
by a bunch of wiseguys. The data system that represents the free lunch
for the wiseguys, who purport to "know" its secrets and to literally
hold the company hostage in place of either getting a real job or
actually learning computing science, is replaced.

A "good thing", IMHO.

The scramble for top dollar produces systems that do not work, because
they are being built by people not for love of the game but for
financial reward.

I think you misconstrue the happenstance of the last decade. I consider
myself to be a consultant in the early meaning of the term. I make
recommendations to clients based on their requirements and budget. I
prefer to upgrade older machines by installing new motherboards and
AMD CPUs rather than taking a commission on brand new machines. What's
the MTBF on floppy and CD-ROM drives anyway?
Where I saw a disconnect was in the separation of the architect and
implementer roles. An architect could parachute in, submit a design,
and be gone before learning that it just didn't work!
So when I read "Architect Also Implements"
<http://www.bell-labs.com/user/cope/Patterns/Process/section16.html>
I realized that I wasn't alone in my beliefs.

My point and how it relates to Java?
I recommend Java to clients looking for portability. Heck, I recommend
it to anyone developing new applications or porting older ones. I prefer
to incorporate elements which have been previously developed and proven
over time. There might still be some "glue" code required but the cost
of development is much less than developing everything from scratch.
YMMV

ps. Don't condemn all consultants; some of us truly provide value for
our clients... :)
 
T

Thomas G. Marshall

Sudsy <[email protected]> coughed up the following:

....[stomp]...
My point and how it relates to Java?
I recommend Java to clients looking for portability. Heck, I recommend
it to anyone developing new applications or porting older ones.

FWIW, me too.

....[slash]...

ps. Don't condemn all consultants; some of us truly provide value for
our clients... :)

Consulting is an odd duck for me to morally justify.

On the one hand, I am one, and I view myself to be very productive and
"worth it".

On the other hand, if I were hiring for a company, consultants would be the
very /last/ thing I would want because one of the most important things you
can accumulate among engineers is their growing knowledge base of your
product. And that's precisely what walks out the door when the consulting
gig is up.

So on this topic, I end up speaking out of both sides of my mouth a lot :)
 

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