What software process do you use for java development? (Agile, XP, BDUF, Scrum, RUP, Chaos)

Discussion in 'Java' started by Danno, Oct 16, 2006.

  1. Danno

    Danno Guest

    I am just curious what people here use. Consider this a "get to know
    you" post. ;)
     
    Danno, Oct 16, 2006
    #1
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  2. Danno

    Oliver Wong Guest

    "Danno" <> wrote in message
    news:...
    >I am just curious what people here use. Consider this a "get to know
    > you" post. ;)


    Process? What's that?

    Oh, you mean like... Intel 1.8Ghz? ;)

    - Oliver
     
    Oliver Wong, Oct 16, 2006
    #2
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  3. Danno

    Oliver Wong Guest

    "Oliver Wong" <> wrote in message
    news:4HSYg.23410$P7.22031@edtnps89...
    > "Danno" <> wrote in message
    > news:...
    >>I am just curious what people here use. Consider this a "get to know
    >> you" post. ;)

    >
    > Process? What's that?
    >
    > Oh, you mean like... Intel 1.8Ghz? ;)


    Oh yeah... um... the opinions expressed in this post are solely my own,
    and do not reflect that of my employer...

    - Oliver
     
    Oliver Wong, Oct 16, 2006
    #3
  4. Danno

    Andy Dingley Guest

    Danno wrote:

    > I am just curious what people here use.


    Clueiron


    Seriously we're supposed to be an Agile shop, and one of the four teams
    is seriously into this - it's working too, even the pair programming.
    Scrum is pretty good if you have the right sort of mini-projects for it
    (or else the management clout to impose it on the less obviously
    Scrum-friendly). Now we're looking at further along the line into XP.

    Soon I hope to have weaned some of the other teams onto using source
    code control 8-(


    I used to use UML (with Bastard Child of Rational) and it's the best
    way ever to draw pictures of waterfalls. Good techniques if it fits,
    but who runs projects that way?
     
    Andy Dingley, Oct 17, 2006
    #4
  5. Re: What software process do you use for java development? (Agile,XP, BDUF, Scrum, RUP, Chaos)

    Andy Dingley wrote:
    > I used to use UML (with Bastard Child of Rational) and it's the best
    > way ever to draw pictures of waterfalls. Good techniques if it fits,
    > but who runs projects that way?


    I assume you mean UP not UML.

    Arne
     
    =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Arne_Vajh=F8j?=, Oct 17, 2006
    #5
  6. Danno

    Andy Dingley Guest

    Arne Vajhøj wrote:

    > I assume you mean UP not UML.


    No, I meant UML - just the pictures, not the process.

    I did use RUP once, but fell foul of the awful quality of Rational
    Rose's fondness for crashing. As many have noted, if the process is so
    good, why is the end product so flakey? (Hmmm...... why am I reminded
    of XP there too?)
     
    Andy Dingley, Oct 17, 2006
    #6
  7. Re: What software process do you use for java development? (Agile,XP, BDUF, Scrum, RUP, Chaos)

    Andy Dingley wrote:
    > Arne Vajhøj wrote:
    >> I assume you mean UP not UML.

    >
    > No, I meant UML - just the pictures, not the process.


    1) "Good techniques if it fits, but who runs projects that way?"
    2) "just the pictures, not the process"

    I can not see any consistency.

    Arne
     
    =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Arne_Vajh=F8j?=, Oct 17, 2006
    #7
  8. Danno

    Danno Guest

    Oliver Wong wrote:
    > "Oliver Wong" <> wrote in message
    > news:4HSYg.23410$P7.22031@edtnps89...
    > > "Danno" <> wrote in message
    > > news:...
    > >>I am just curious what people here use. Consider this a "get to know
    > >> you" post. ;)

    > >
    > > Process? What's that?
    > >
    > > Oh, you mean like... Intel 1.8Ghz? ;)

    >
    > Oh yeah... um... the opinions expressed in this post are solely my own,
    > and do not reflect that of my employer...
    >
    > - Oliver


    ZING!
     
    Danno, Oct 17, 2006
    #8
  9. Danno

    Danno Guest

    Arne Vajhøj wrote:
    > Andy Dingley wrote:
    > > Arne Vajhøj wrote:
    > >> I assume you mean UP not UML.

    > >
    > > No, I meant UML - just the pictures, not the process.

    >
    > 1) "Good techniques if it fits, but who runs projects that way?"
    > 2) "just the pictures, not the process"
    >
    > I can not see any consistency.
    >
    > Arne


    Seems fine to me. He is just asking who runs their projects by using
    UML anyway? In most agile practices you build into the patterns you
    need and you don't define them before hand.
     
    Danno, Oct 17, 2006
    #9
  10. Danno

    Chris Uppal Guest

    Danno wrote:
    > I am just curious what people here use. Consider this a "get to know
    > you" post. ;)


    Me:

    Just Write The Damn Code (tm).

    -- chris
     
    Chris Uppal, Oct 17, 2006
    #10
  11. Danno

    Andy Dingley Guest

    Arne Vajhøj wrote:

    > 1) "Good techniques if it fits, but who runs projects that way?"
    > 2) "just the pictures, not the process"
    >
    > I can not see any consistency.


    UML is a good technique for the substantial pre-coding descriptions
    produced during classic waterfall. But who still gets to use waterfall
    ?

    It also has some use for Scrum, as Scrum is largely "waterfall
    techniques made usable for modern project cycles".

    UML is the most useful part of RUP. I have no use for RUP in total. I
    have no use for Rational's bug-ridden toolset. With just UML and a
    whiteboard though, I can design and communicate it to others..
     
    Andy Dingley, Oct 17, 2006
    #11
  12. Danno

    Tom Forsmo Guest

    Re: What software process do you use for java development? (Agile,XP, BDUF, Scrum, RUP, Chaos)

    Danno wrote:
    > I am just curious what people here use. Consider this a "get to know
    > you" post. ;)


    I think the prevailing thought on process is "just write the damn code"
    as Chris put it :) But today its usually more of an iterative approach.
    This is especially important in bigger projects or where the details of
    the functionality is sketchy. That's why you iteratively code your way
    into the details of the problem. There are many forms of iterative
    processes, rup, agile/xp, select perspective and a host of others. You
    should not get stuck in a specific process, what you need to do is read
    a bit about the different ideas behind the processes and apply the ideas
    as you see fit to your project or company. There is no single or line of
    processes that contains the whole set of solutions that is best for your
    project. In any case, a project is as much about what the participants
    are comfortable with. Half the success of a project/company is a
    satisfied team of quality participants. Forcing team members to use a
    specific process because it fits with an idea or argument the management
    has only spells disaster in the long run.

    tom
     
    Tom Forsmo, Oct 17, 2006
    #12
  13. Danno

    Andy Dingley Guest

    Tom Forsmo wrote:

    > I think the prevailing thought on process is "just write the damn code"
    > as Chris put it :)


    Not here. 8-( I've spent 20 years fighting against this approach.

    I have no shortage of code. I've got 2000 source files of it in front
    of me, and most of it's ugly crap written by unskilled peons. The last
    thing I need is more people "just writing the damn stuff", I'd like
    some that _worked_. Maybe some code with some _thought_ behind it, not
    the "Mavis Beacon Teaches Java" typing-exercises I'm seeing pouring out
    of the bucket shops at the moment.
     
    Andy Dingley, Oct 17, 2006
    #13
  14. Re: What software process do you use for java development? (Agile,XP, BDUF, Scrum, RUP, Chaos)

    Andy Dingley wrote:
    > Tom Forsmo wrote:
    >
    >> I think the prevailing thought on process is "just write the damn code"
    >> as Chris put it :)

    >
    > Not here. 8-( I've spent 20 years fighting against this approach.
    >
    > I have no shortage of code. I've got 2000 source files of it in front
    > of me, and most of it's ugly crap written by unskilled peons. The last
    > thing I need is more people "just writing the damn stuff", I'd like
    > some that _worked_. Maybe some code with some _thought_ behind it, not
    > the "Mavis Beacon Teaches Java" typing-exercises I'm seeing pouring out
    > of the bucket shops at the moment.
    >

    Right on.

    Decompose the requirements, produce a good modular design with built in
    scalability and ways round bottlenecks (e.g. some parts of the design
    may need configurable parallelization). Specify to the module level and,
    while you're doing this design in performance measurement, system-level
    tracing/debugging and restart & recovery. All of these WILL be used
    unless you're designing a simple stand-alone program.

    Resist all attempts to start coding until this point has been reached or
    you'll waste endless time during integration testing, when you suddenly
    find that the system can't be started or stopped cleanly and that
    modules developed by different groups don't talk to each other.

    Then and only then code, preferably using some form of top-down
    incremental development method. AFAICT all the fashionable extremely
    agile team scrums are merely elaborations of this. IMHO unit testing and
    regression testing are non-optional parts of module development.

    Integration testing can start as soon as the various modules can
    demonstrate basic functions in unit testing and the problems that
    integration testing find can be fed back into module development.

    Finally, system test against test cases developed directly from the
    original requirements. This should be reasonably short and sweet if all
    the above was done adequately but will stretch into next century,
    finding endlessly multiplying bugs if the previous stages were skimped.


    --
    martin@ | Martin Gregorie
    gregorie. | Essex, UK
    org |
     
    Martin Gregorie, Oct 17, 2006
    #14
  15. Danno

    kevin cline Guest

    Andy Dingley wrote:

    > I have no shortage of code. I've got 2000 source files of it in front
    > of me, and most of it's ugly crap written by unskilled peons. The last
    > thing I need is more people "just writing the damn stuff", I'd like
    > some that _worked_. Maybe some code with some _thought_ behind it, not
    > the "Mavis Beacon Teaches Java" typing-exercises I'm seeing pouring out
    > of the bucket shops at the moment.


    It's hard to find a process that will work when people who don't know
    how to code are doing a lot of the coding. Maybe that's why
    document-centric approaches work better for some organizations. It
    gives all the bad coders something to do besides breaking the code.
     
    kevin cline, Oct 17, 2006
    #15
  16. Danno

    Daniel Dyer Guest

    On Tue, 17 Oct 2006 00:27:39 +0100, Andy Dingley <>
    wrote:

    > Soon I hope to have weaned some of the other teams onto using source
    > code control 8-(
    >


    Please tell me that's a joke...

    Dan.

    --
    Daniel Dyer
    http://www.uncommons.org
     
    Daniel Dyer, Oct 17, 2006
    #16
  17. Danno

    Tom Forsmo Guest

    Re: What software process do you use for java development? (Agile,XP, BDUF, Scrum, RUP, Chaos)

    Andy Dingley wrote:
    > Tom Forsmo wrote:
    >
    >> I think the prevailing thought on process is "just write the damn code"
    >> as Chris put it :)

    >
    > Not here. 8-( I've spent 20 years fighting against this approach.
    >
    > I have no shortage of code. I've got 2000 source files of it in front
    > of me, and most of it's ugly crap written by unskilled peons. The last
    > thing I need is more people "just writing the damn stuff",


    Well we all know that, what was is?, "1000 monkies hitting a typewriter
    will eventually write Shakespeare" is not realistic, its a statistical
    possibility, and that's it. Same goes with coding, you have to have able
    and earnest programmers to create good code. If you don't, then of
    course they are going to write crap, so either you have to teach them or
    get read of them. I have worked in companies where they only hire expert
    programmers. The type of programmer that writes larger and
    semi-complicated code in a couple of days, while others might use 2
    weeks, and the code is almost flawless. I know it sounds like an
    exaggeration, but I witnessed it myself in the beginning and it left me
    speechless. And from that I learned what good programming is and allows
    me to do, if done correctly.

    Btw, I forgot a couple of points when writing my previous post, so I
    will make the additions now.

    Just writing the code in it self is not good enough. You have to have
    some structure to the procedure of writing the code. There should be an
    agreement on what needs to be done and how to do it. In the above
    example, there was usually an task/architecture meeting between the
    programmer, the project leader and a senior programmer managing the code
    base for that part of the system. The point of the meeting was to have a
    common understanding of what to do, how to do it and how to use the code
    base to achieve it. If there were any details that needed to be
    recorded, we used bugzilla. Bugzilla was the overall archive of all
    things coded, and every piece of code checked in to subversion had to
    correspond to a bugzilla bug and had to be relevant. To ensure this,
    senior programmers had control over the master branch, the senior
    performed a code review and the final checkin (even for each other). If
    there were any questions during programming, a senior was consulted. So
    the senior programmers acted as the guardians of the code base and hence
    the code was kept to premium quality. There where other parts such as
    testing procedures and bug verification procedures, but that are details
    I wont go into here now.

    This kept the development process light, capable of supporting change
    and above all helped us write excellent and functioning code. This made
    programmers and management happy because everybody could focus on their
    main tasks instead of long meetings and endless specification
    discussions. Tasks were divided into smaller parts so it could be done
    by one or two programmers and so that no single task took too long time
    to complete. Everything was checked by several people by way of small
    meetings, or coffebreak discussions, without having to resort to a paper
    mill production. By working iteratively and hands on from the start we
    learned to understand things intimately from the start and could avoid
    problems and pitfalls before they even existed.

    As another point, later I worked on a project where the management tried
    to enforce a rigid structure and force us to use xp, scrum etc
    indiscriminately. The project soon fell apart, in dissent. I, and
    shortly after, another, walked away from the company. They did not
    consider the team or the individuals and how they work best together.

    tom
     
    Tom Forsmo, Oct 17, 2006
    #17
  18. Danno

    Andy Dingley Guest

    Tom Forsmo wrote:

    > a senior programmer


    What's a "senior programmer" ?

    Someone who has been there the longest and has seniority?
    Someone who has been there for some years, seen only this project,
    ignored the rest of the world's progress, and is probably responsible
    for much of what's wrong with the current state of things?

    Hmmm.......
     
    Andy Dingley, Oct 17, 2006
    #18
  19. Re: What software process do you use for java development? (Agile,XP, BDUF, Scrum, RUP, Chaos)

    Danno wrote:
    > Arne Vajhøj wrote:
    >> Andy Dingley wrote:
    >>> Arne Vajhøj wrote:
    >>>> I assume you mean UP not UML.
    >>> No, I meant UML - just the pictures, not the process.

    >> 1) "Good techniques if it fits, but who runs projects that way?"
    >> 2) "just the pictures, not the process"
    >>
    >> I can not see any consistency.

    >
    > Seems fine to me. He is just asking who runs their projects by using
    > UML anyway? In most agile practices you build into the patterns you
    > need and you don't define them before hand.


    No. Has asked for processes. You brought up UML which is not
    a process but a modeling language.

    Arne
     
    =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Arne_Vajh=F8j?=, Oct 18, 2006
    #19
  20. Re: What software process do you use for java development? (Agile,XP, BDUF, Scrum, RUP, Chaos)

    kevin cline wrote:
    > It's hard to find a process that will work when people who don't know
    > how to code are doing a lot of the coding.


    So true, so true.

    > Maybe that's why
    > document-centric approaches work better for some organizations. It
    > gives all the bad coders something to do besides breaking the code.


    :)

    Arne
     
    =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Arne_Vajh=F8j?=, Oct 18, 2006
    #20
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