Whats the right approach for getting a job

S

suraj

Hi All,

I am sorry if am cross posting but just wanted to get the right answer
for this. I have a experiece of 15 years yes i am a old man now. Most
of exp is in electrical field. After 15 years for various reasons i
want to swithc to Softwares.


After consulting many of my freinds who are already in this field i did
the following :-

-- Brought WROX C# book and did some practicals at my house. Built a
small project in ADO.NET . When i went for interview no body asked what
i can do practically rather they asked fundamentals like what is client
activated objects ?. How the damn i can know that. But i can code i can
make your software why the hell you are asking me theory

-- LOL After that i thought i should also be theortically strong so
started preparing from interview point of view. referred
www.questpond.com and http://techinterviews.com/ has around 1000
question with answers read it for one week . It did give some
advantage....But damn yesterday went for a interview the guys asked me
about some CMMI and project management stuff


My question is i can code i can do practicals..... But some one should
give me a break....Is Software industry all about theory will no on
consider what i can do ?.

What approach should i take which the book which will give me this
advantage
Sorry if i have disturbed any one.
 
S

Steven Nagy

Hi Suraj,

2 weeks work is not going to get you in the door in a software
engineering job.
I would suggest reading about patterns and practices.
For example, when you are able to write example code demonstrating
implementations of "Factory", "Singleton" and "MVP" patterns AND you
understand why they are important, then I am sure you will increase
your hireability 10 fold.

Also, here's a quick interesting read:
http://msmvps.com/blogs/jon.skeet/archive/2006/07/31/106368.aspx

Personally, I learnt .NET by writing applications for myself that did
something useful.
For example, I wrote my own book library software, that helps me fill
in the gaps of series, and work out which one's I've read. I've also
done lots of free work over the years while trying to build my skills.
And its worked for me.

Also maybe consider doing a small certificate from TAFE (do you have
TAFE outside of Australia? Its like a 'small' college where you can do
just a few subjects for a certificate).

SN
 
B

Brennan Stehling

Changing industry to do the job of someone who has been doing it for
years is not something you can do after reading a book. It is just the
start. I know for certain I could not become a skilled mechanic or
chef after reading a book and spending a week to learn.

And with the software I would say it is just like becoming a good chef.
You have to get a sense of what your options are and what it takes to
make it work. A skilled chef will also pick up ideas from other chefs
through years of experience which can influence his/her approach. The
exact same thing happens on a team of software developers.

With your experience with electrical work, one niche you may find
worthwhile is BizTalk. The latest release is quite powerful and in
demand. It may also match up with your way of thinking as it is system
to essentially wire up applications. You may be comfortable in that
metaphor.

If you do want to continue learning, I suggest the following websites:

http://channel9.msdn.com/
http://www.learnvisualstudio.net/
http://dnrtv.com/
http://dotnetrocks.com/

Brennan Stehling
http://brennan.offwhite.net/blog/
 
C

Cor Ligthert [MVP]

Suraj,

You are 15 years in this business? My experience is that phrases can change
in this business in about 2 months.

If the guy who is interviewing you does not understand what you know, than
in the way as you decribe yourself you are in my idea on the wrong place.
Learning words from your head will in my idea result that your lifetime at
that company will not take more than 2 weeks if you don't really know what
is behind those words.

A pragmatic person will never survive in a theoretical environment and visa
versa.

Be as well aware that some people can ask you theoretical questions just to
find out if you only know book facts and have no practical expirience. If
you than not say "I don't know it" or "I don't know it anymore" or something
like that, than you are in my idea direct in trouble.

In my idea you should try to tell the things in what you are strong.

Just my thought,

Cor


news:[email protected]...
 
H

Horace Nunley

what the heck are you talking about?



Cor Ligthert said:
Suraj,

You are 15 years in this business? My experience is that phrases can
change in this business in about 2 months.

If the guy who is interviewing you does not understand what you know, than
in the way as you decribe yourself you are in my idea on the wrong place.
Learning words from your head will in my idea result that your lifetime at
that company will not take more than 2 weeks if you don't really know what
is behind those words.

A pragmatic person will never survive in a theoretical environment and
visa versa.

Be as well aware that some people can ask you theoretical questions just
to find out if you only know book facts and have no practical expirience.
If you than not say "I don't know it" or "I don't know it anymore" or
something like that, than you are in my idea direct in trouble.

In my idea you should try to tell the things in what you are strong.

Just my thought,

Cor
 
S

Steven Nagy

I'm really trying to be polite but I often find Cor's answers very
confusing.
Its not because of his technical ability; I am sure he is very good at
what he does. But something is definately getting lost in the
translation.

Cor, what's your first language? Are you writing the English or using a
translator?
 
D

Daniel Crichton

Steven wrote on 25 Sep 2006 22:52:36 -0700:
I'm really trying to be polite but I often find Cor's answers very
confusing.
Its not because of his technical ability; I am sure he is very good at
what he does. But something is definately getting lost in the
translation.

Cor, what's your first language? Are you writing the English or using a
translator?

From his domain I'd say his first language is Dutch. I got the gist of his
email, but it does look like it might be computer translated.

And I agree with him - if someone turned up in my office for a job interview
spouting buzzwords and appearing to have just read a Wrox book, there's no
chance of a job. I'd be loathe to take someone on without at least a few
years commercial experience already. Software theory is all well and good,
but sometimes that theory has to be thrown out to meet deadlines, and no
amount of book reading will cover that sort of practice (I know it's a bad
thing to do, but sometimes there's really no choice, deadlines have to be
met and the code can always be tidied up later).

I once had a programmer turn up who decided that SQL Server was not
efficient enough and started writing his own database engine, and his
project overran by 3 months, the final result being a VB6 class that read
the SQL Server data into arrays (all the entire tables, even when they
weren't being used, and the row searching was done by recursing the arrays
from start to end, not even using a sort method!) and played with them in
memory, resulting in a horribly unscaleable application (he wasn't working
directly for me, so I wasn't involved till after the project "completion") -
suffice to say he was asked to leave the company after I'd reviewed his
code.

Dan
 
J

Jon Skeet [C# MVP]

Daniel Crichton said:
And I agree with him - if someone turned up in my office for a job interview
spouting buzzwords and appearing to have just read a Wrox book, there's no
chance of a job. I'd be loathe to take someone on without at least a few
years commercial experience already. Software theory is all well and good,
but sometimes that theory has to be thrown out to meet deadlines, and no
amount of book reading will cover that sort of practice (I know it's a bad
thing to do, but sometimes there's really no choice, deadlines have to be
met and the code can always be tidied up later).

I sort of agree, and sort of disagree. A few things:

1) Saying "I don't know" to a question in an interview wouldn't be a
deal-breaker, but pretending to know about something you don't would.
With so many technologies around, it's fine not to have worked on one
so long as you're honest about it, in my view.

2) Experience is certainly useful, but I'd generally have someone
bright but inexperienced than someone who's been plodding along for 15
years and still can't code his way out of a paper bag - particularly
for permanent jobs. With short-term contractors I'd try to get someone
with the right experience and not worry too much about a "spark", but
if you can hire a recent graduate who's bright and enthusiastic,
they're likely to make up ground quickly anyway, and be a more valuable
asset to the company when they've done so.
 
R

rowe_newsgroups

Sorry for jumping in and asking my own questions, but I'm sort of in
the same boat as soraj.

Anyways, what are some resources that you all recommend for the theory
and project management side of the industry? Besides OOP, I am having a
difficult time finding out about the other programming theories that
are out there.

Also, from an employer's point of view, how much difference does it
make if a candidate is Microsoft certified or not?

Mainly, how do you make the jump from the "average" programmer that has
difficulties getting interviews to one that is actively recruited by
software firms?

Thanks,

Seth Rowe
 
D

Daniel Crichton

Jon wrote on Tue, 26 Sep 2006 12:11:14 +0100:
I sort of agree, and sort of disagree. A few things:

1) Saying "I don't know" to a question in an interview wouldn't be a
deal-breaker, but pretending to know about something you don't would.
With so many technologies around, it's fine not to have worked on one
so long as you're honest about it, in my view.

Good point, I agree with this. Honesty about not knowing things, and an
interest in learning what you don't know, is much better than some crash
course in subjects related to the job that you'll forget in 2 days.
2) Experience is certainly useful, but I'd generally have someone
bright but inexperienced than someone who's been plodding along for 15
years and still can't code his way out of a paper bag - particularly
for permanent jobs. With short-term contractors I'd try to get someone
with the right experience and not worry too much about a "spark", but
if you can hire a recent graduate who's bright and enthusiastic,
they're likely to make up ground quickly anyway, and be a more valuable
asset to the company when they've done so.

And again, I agree. I guess I should have put some qualification in my reply
that I'd take practical experience over a crash course, but I'd be prepared
to give someone who seems to know what they're doing a chance.

Dan
 
D

Daniel Crichton

rowe_newsgroups wrote on 26 Sep 2006 05:24:05 -0700:
Anyways, what are some resources that you all recommend for the theory
and project management side of the industry? Besides OOP, I am having a
difficult time finding out about the other programming theories that
are out there.

No idea, project management is one of those things I left behind in the
Aerospace industry. I have a bad habit of not planning anything here in
advance, mainly caused by management coming up with changes on one day that
"absolutely must be in place by tomorrow!". Applications here evolve
organically, then get a trimming later when the requirements have been
finalised.
Also, from an employer's point of view, how much difference does it
make if a candidate is Microsoft certified or not?

If you'd asked me that a few years ago, I'd have said I'd certainly consider
the MS certification as a plus. However, I think it's been devalued badly in
the past couple of years to the point that almost anyone can get an MCP just
by clicking the answers that put MS in a good light. MCSD might be harder to
achieve, but I still personally wouldn't consider it over good recent
practical commercial experience.
Mainly, how do you make the jump from the "average" programmer that has
difficulties getting interviews to one that is actively recruited by
software firms?

Can't help you here - I'm not at a software firm, so no idea what the
requirements would be. I work in e-commerce retail, although 50% of the
programming is actually interfacing with third party systems (suppliers
mainly) which ends up being small modifications every month to handle little
changes in their systems. Most of the programming is pretty basic, and
easily managed with simple procedural programming - slapping a load of OOP
in here would increase project times horrendously. That's one reason why I'd
be wary of taking on another Comp Sci graduate - too much theory, not enough
real world application. I myself took Mech Eng which included lot of
practical programming courses.

Dan
 
T

Tracy McKibben

Daniel said:
If you'd asked me that a few years ago, I'd have said I'd certainly consider
the MS certification as a plus. However, I think it's been devalued badly in
the past couple of years to the point that almost anyone can get an MCP just
by clicking the answers that put MS in a good light. MCSD might be harder to
achieve, but I still personally wouldn't consider it over good recent
practical commercial experience.

I agree completely with this point, but there are still many employers
out there that consider an MS cert to be a must-have. I went after the
MCSE back in 1992, when it meant something, but I would never put the
time/expense into it today. I got my MCDBA last August, but only
because it fulfilled a "personal growth" goal for my employer. I don't
feel that I gained a thing by doing it, the exams didn't cover any "real
world" situations, and after 10 years, I still find myself learning new
things about SQL Server.
 
R

rowe_newsgroups

So outside of having x number of years of experience how do candidates
"prove" themselves to employers?

Thanks,

Seth Rowe
 
J

Jon Skeet [C# MVP]

Tracy McKibben said:
I agree completely with this point, but there are still many employers
out there that consider an MS cert to be a must-have. I went after the
MCSE back in 1992, when it meant something, but I would never put the
time/expense into it today. I got my MCDBA last August, but only
because it fulfilled a "personal growth" goal for my employer. I don't
feel that I gained a thing by doing it, the exams didn't cover any "real
world" situations, and after 10 years, I still find myself learning new
things about SQL Server.

I would be concerned that any employer who regarded MS certification as
a must-have would probably be obsessed by process and red tape in the
first place.

I'm not MS certified, and have no plans to change that.
 
T

Tracy McKibben

rowe_newsgroups said:
So outside of having x number of years of experience how do candidates
"prove" themselves to employers?

That depends on what the prospective employer is looking for as "proof".
As Jon said, any employer who relies on certifications will probably
be a frustrating place to work, you'll likely find yourself surrounded
by buzzwords and ridiculous processes that don't accomplish much.

Experience is key, but competency will go a long way. Being able to
articulate your knowledge, understanding the tools that you'll use to do
the job you're applying for, presenting yourself as someone who is
intelligent, willing to learn, and also able to COMMUNICATE will be of
tremendous value. If you're going in to a SQL Server interview, and the
interviewer asks you how you'd add a column to a table, don't respond
with "I'd right-click on the table".
 
K

kgerritsen

Hi Suraj,

For the actual interview, be prepared for two different interview
styles. If your interviewer is a senior developer, be prepared for
code examples and discussing theoretical and technology-specific
details. If you are unfamiliar with a specific technology (for some
jobs this would be a deal-breaker) shift the question to a technology
you know well. I hardly used VB before my current job, but I addressed
my interview questions in C#, which worked out fine.

If your interviewer is a project manager or higher level manager,
consider it an opportunity to shine because this person most likely
controls the budget. As soon in the interview as you get the
opportunity, ask them what defines project success in their shop. Ask
if they've had a failed (or non-ideal) project in the past, and why
they think it failed. Keep in mind that the top-level answer may be
"politically correct"; engage in a discussion (almost case-study style)
to draw out the details. Say the project was on time and on budget but
failed because not enough users use it. Prod for more: does this
reflect incomplete understanding of business requirements;
non-functional requirements issues such as lag times, unfriendly user
interface, etc.; poor rollout and training; an actual misunderstanding
- the application is in fact being used but the benefits are not
obvious (management had unrealistic expectations; baseline end-user
productivity may not have been correctly captured); or
political/organizational resistance within the organization? There's a
specific mindset to application development that could address these
project failure modes; demonstrate the one the manager is looking for.
If you can compare the failure mode to experience in your work history,
great. For the rest of the interview with this individual, frame
yourself, your skills, and your mindset to address the PM's specific
history and concerns. I wouldn't lay it on too thick; and if you can't
figure out a way for yourself to address this need, you wouldn't be
happy working with this shop. If the PM has confidence that you
understand their position, and that you can identify the systemic
issues in their shop, and you can demonstrate familiarity with the
language and technology used, you're probably golden.
 
C

Cor Ligthert [MVP]

Horace,

Can you tell me what you mean with that message.
what the heck are you talking about?

Otherwise look at the replies, with the exception from Steven, who seems to
find it funny to start his own war against me in some threads.

Cor
 
C

Cor Ligthert [MVP]

Daniel,

There is no spellchecker or whatever used; it has been quickly written in
the early morning. For the rest is your reflection from what I wanted to say
excellent.

Cor
 
N

Noah Sham

Suraj and other career changers,

The simple fact is that without experience or a university degree your are
not 'qualified'. Reading a book or memorizing interview questions is not
going to change this fact. Now, this may or may not matter based on the
employment market you are in. If the employment market has large number of
qualified candidates then you will not have much luck. On the other hand,
if there are a large number of jobs and few qualified candidates then a
employer may be willing to hire unqualified candidates.

One way to obtain experience is to reduce your salary requirements vis-a-vis
a qualified candidate. You might consider posting salary requirements on
your CV that are 50-60% of the salary a qualified entry-level candidate
could expect to receive in your employment market.

Good Luck
 
M

Mark Rae

I couldn't agree more! We've had this discussion before, but I have not
changed my opinion that Microsoft Certification is a total and utter waste
of time and money.
I would be concerned that any employer who regarded MS certification as
a must-have would probably be obsessed by process and red tape in the
first place.

Quite - it's just ignorance.
I'm not MS certified, and have no plans to change that.

Likewise.
 

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