Where can I download SWT? (SWT homepage)

Discussion in 'Java' started by Ramon F Herrera, Dec 5, 2007.

  1. (if you are a human being, please ignore this. It is meant for the
    search engine crawlers, as I am sick and tired of trying to find this
    in Eclipse's web page). My reaction was: "Gee, I guess they gave up
    and now Swing is King".

    Historic Tip: The first crawler was developed for Altavista, and its
    name was "Scooter".

    Altavista itself was developed by a Skunk works type of operation,
    against management and company policy (it was also against company
    policy to place Internet e-mail addresses in DEC employees business
    cards as they were against TCP/IP in favor of DECnet). Speaking of
    company policy, Microsoft ignored, and then attacked the Internet for
    close to a decade. The first Windows 95 did come with TCP/IP. They
    thought Netware was the future of worldwide networking.

    I suggest a name for a crawler: Slowpoke.

    Anywho... Here's my keywords, Mr. Scooter:

    SWT

    Standard Widget Toolkit

    SWT Home Page

    Eclipse


    Download

    http://www.eclipse.org/swt/

    -RFH
    Ramon F Herrera, Dec 5, 2007
    #1
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  2. On Dec 5, 1:30 am, Ramon F Herrera <> wrote:

    >
    > Historic Tip: The first crawler was developed for Altavista, and its
    > name was "Scooter".
    >
    > Altavista itself was developed by a Skunk works type of operation,
    > against management and company policy (it was also against company
    > policy to place Internet e-mail addresses in DEC employees business
    > cards as they were against TCP/IP in favor of DECnet).


    I forgot to add that when the time came to sell the company, Altavista
    was worth more than the whole Digital Equipment Corporation, and the
    engineers who created it (in the Unix/Ultrix division in R&D, that's
    how they scaped the wrath of management) could have been fired for
    writing software that ran on TCP/IP.

    SWT homepage

    SWT download, where?

    Looking for Mr. Good SWT.

    SWT, where are thou?

    http://www.eclipse.org/swt

    -RFH
    Ramon F Herrera, Dec 5, 2007
    #2
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  3. Ramon F Herrera

    Joe Attardi Guest

    Ramon F Herrera wrote:
    > (if you are a human being, please ignore this. It is meant for the
    > search engine crawlers, as I am sick and tired of trying to find this
    > in Eclipse's web page).


    If only web browsers had a feature to save locations of pages you want
    to revisit later. They could even call them "Bookmarks"!
    Joe Attardi, Dec 5, 2007
    #3
  4. On Dec 5, 2:01 am, Joe Attardi <> wrote:
    > Ramon F Herrera wrote:
    > > (if you are a human being, please ignore this. It is meant for the
    > > search engine crawlers, as I am sick and tired of trying to find this
    > > in Eclipse's web page).

    >
    > If only web browsers had a feature to save locations of pages you want
    > to revisit later. They could even call them "Bookmarks"!


    Then again, you may want to send a message to the people in charge of
    SWT, and embarrass them for the world to see. Or, you may want to help
    other people to find such unreachable and hidden page.

    They should invent something, and call it... Let's see: Usenet!

    -RFH
    Ramon F Herrera, Dec 5, 2007
    #4
  5. Ramon F Herrera

    Philipp Guest

    Ramon F Herrera wrote:
    > On Dec 5, 2:01 am, Joe Attardi <> wrote:
    >> Ramon F Herrera wrote:
    >>> (if you are a human being, please ignore this. It is meant for the
    >>> search engine crawlers, as I am sick and tired of trying to find this
    >>> in Eclipse's web page).

    >> If only web browsers had a feature to save locations of pages you want
    >> to revisit later. They could even call them "Bookmarks"!

    >
    > Then again, you may want to send a message to the people in charge of
    > SWT, and embarrass them for the world to see. Or, you may want to help
    > other people to find such unreachable and hidden page.
    >
    > They should invent something, and call it... Let's see: Usenet!


    I dont know for you, but the search terms "eclipse swt" bring up exactly
    your page as first hit in Google.

    :-D
    Philipp, Dec 5, 2007
    #5
  6. Ramon F Herrera

    Lew Guest

    Philipp wrote:
    > I dont know for you, but the search terms "eclipse swt" bring up exactly
    > your page as first hit in Google.
    >
    > :-D


    First hit on Yahoo Search, too, were I crazy enough to want to use Eclipse or SWT.

    --
    Lew
    Lew, Dec 5, 2007
    #6
  7. Ramon F Herrera

    Lew Guest

    Lew wrote:
    > Philipp wrote:
    >> I dont know for you, but the search terms "eclipse swt" bring up
    >> exactly your page as first hit in Google.
    >>
    >> :-D

    >
    > First hit on Yahoo Search, too, were I crazy enough to want to use
    > Eclipse or SWT.


    Here's one article on the comparison. (First hit on Yahoo for "swing vs
    swt".) It generally favors SWT and Eclipse, claims that SWT is better for
    productivity, then concludes,

    > take this bit of advice: don't program against the grain in Eclipse.
    > Don't try to dismantle the framework and rebuild it to suit your tastes.
    > So the height of the dialog header is 30 pixels instead of 35 --
    > or the cancel button for background tasks is red instead of mauve the
    > boss wants -- or you want, as "Mr. Ed" did, an Outlook-like "cool-bar"
    > instead of a "toolbar" -- or you want the font on the preferences dialog
    > to be a size larger -- my advice is to forget about it.

    ....
    > Programming against the grain is so counterproductive in Eclipse and SWT
    > that if your end-user requires extensive tweaking of the user interface,
    > then I wholeheartedly recommend using Swing. It will certainly provide you
    > the desired flexibility --
    > only, expect to pay a heavy price in terms of productivity.

    <http://www.ahmadsoft.org/articles/swingswt/swingswt.html>

    I read this as, "If you want the wrong result in half the time, use SWT. If
    you want the right result, take longer and use Swing."

    --
    Lew
    Lew, Dec 5, 2007
    #7
  8. Lew wrote:
    > Philipp wrote:
    >> I dont know for you, but the search terms "eclipse swt" bring up
    >> exactly your page as first hit in Google.
    >>
    >> :-D

    >
    > First hit on Yahoo Search, too, were I crazy enough to want to use
    > Eclipse or SWT.
    >


    This could be interpreted as you saying that you'd have to be crazy to
    use Eclipse. You don't usually post flame-bait so either I've
    misunderstood, or you have found some serious problems in Eclipse.

    If the latter, I'd be interested in a brief summary of your reasons (or
    a link to a prior post or web-page).

    --
    An Eclipse user :)
    RedGrittyBrick, Dec 5, 2007
    #8
  9. On Dec 5, 10:51 am, Lew <> wrote:
    > Lew wrote:
    > > Philipp wrote:
    > >> I dont know for you, but the search terms "eclipse swt" bring up
    > >> exactly your page as first hit in Google.

    >
    > >> :-D

    >
    > > First hit on Yahoo Search, too, were I crazy enough to want to use
    > > Eclipse or SWT.

    >
    > Here's one article on the comparison. (First hit on Yahoo for "swing vs
    > swt".) It generally favors SWT and Eclipse, claims that SWT is better for
    > productivity, then concludes,
    >
    > > take this bit of advice: don't program against the grain in Eclipse.
    > > Don't try to dismantle the framework and rebuild it to suit your tastes.
    > > So the height of the dialog header is 30 pixels instead of 35 --
    > > or the cancel button for background tasks is red instead of mauve the
    > > boss wants -- or you want, as "Mr. Ed" did, an Outlook-like "cool-bar"
    > > instead of a "toolbar" -- or you want the font on the preferences dialog
    > > to be a size larger -- my advice is to forget about it.

    > ...
    > > Programming against the grain is so counterproductive in Eclipse and SWT
    > > that if your end-user requires extensive tweaking of the user interface,
    > > then I wholeheartedly recommend using Swing. It will certainly provide you
    > > the desired flexibility --
    > > only, expect to pay a heavy price in terms of productivity.

    >
    > <http://www.ahmadsoft.org/articles/swingswt/swingswt.html>
    >
    > I read this as, "If you want the wrong result in half the time, use SWT. If
    > you want the right result, take longer and use Swing."
    >
    > --
    > Lew


    What the (Java developer's) world need is a tool that automatically
    converts apps from Swing to SWT, and vice versa. Probably not a
    trivial pursuit, but it would have both toolkits compete on a level
    ground. The following is very wise, taken from SWT wiki:

    "Which one is better: a screwdriver or a hammer...?"

    I am a highly visual person, and frankly, SWT looks beautiful:

    http://www.eclipse.org/swt/

    SWT does not try to place a tinted, distorted glass over the Mona
    Lisa, as Swing does.

    The whole issue (I am talking strictly about the visual aesthetics)
    reminds me of the comments when the Macintosh came out:

    "How come the Mac programs seem to be designed by an arts major
    while Win3.1 look designed by an engineering major?"

    and, my all-time favorite:

    "The Macintosh is to Windows (3.1) as a beautiful woman to a
    transvestite".

    In speed of response terms, the one and only widget in which you can
    see a substantial difference is in the implementation of JFileChooser.
    Swing's is dismal, awful while SWT is perfect, like the real thing
    (see transvestite comment above) because it IS the real thing.

    I tend to disregard the "productivity" arguments, as the learning
    curve is minimal compared with years of daily use. Once you learn one
    of the tools well (however long it takes) you will be productive using
    it.

    Having said that, I have never used SWT, I use Swing because of
    inertia. I learned Java with Swing-only JBuilder and following the
    Swing only Java Tutorial. I didn't even know that there was an
    alternative to Swing at the time.

    Some people say that one fundamental reason for Eclipse's immense
    success is its use of SWT.

    -Ramon

    ps:

    SWT home page - Standard Widget Tookit - SWT download - http://www.eclise.org/swt
    Where is SWT? Where can I find SWT?
    Ramon F Herrera, Dec 5, 2007
    #9
  10. Ramon F Herrera

    Lew Guest

    RedGrittyBrick wrote:
    > Lew wrote:
    >> Philipp wrote:
    >>> I dont know for you, but the search terms "eclipse swt" bring up
    >>> exactly your page as first hit in Google.
    >>>
    >>> :-D

    >>
    >> First hit on Yahoo Search, too, were I crazy enough to want to use
    >> Eclipse or SWT.
    >>

    >
    > This could be interpreted as you saying that you'd have to be crazy to
    > use Eclipse. You don't usually post flame-bait so either I've
    > misunderstood, or you have found some serious problems in Eclipse.
    >
    > If the latter, I'd be interested in a brief summary of your reasons (or
    > a link to a prior post or web-page).


    Flame bait, but meant as humo(u)r, not a serious condemnation of Eclipse.

    Sorry, but Editor Wars
    <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Editor_wars>
    have been around too long for me to take them seriously.

    I've been a vocal critic of many of NetBeans's flaws in the past, but in the
    end I use the tools that are available. Hey, I even use vi if emacs isn't around!

    I only use NetBeans because emacs doesn't have a good Java debugger.

    In all seriousness I really do find NetBeans significantly more
    straightforward to deploy and use. Eclipse and its (grand)children have
    always struck me as kludgy, top-heavy and obscure. NetBeans comes across to
    me as clean, direct and minimally intrusive.

    --
    Lew
    Lew, Dec 5, 2007
    #10
  11. Ramon F Herrera

    Arne Vajhøj Guest

    Ramon F Herrera wrote:
    > On Dec 5, 1:30 am, Ramon F Herrera <> wrote:
    >> Historic Tip: The first crawler was developed for Altavista, and its
    >> name was "Scooter".
    >>
    >> Altavista itself was developed by a Skunk works type of operation,
    >> against management and company policy (it was also against company
    >> policy to place Internet e-mail addresses in DEC employees business
    >> cards as they were against TCP/IP in favor of DECnet).

    >
    > I forgot to add that when the time came to sell the company, Altavista
    > was worth more than the whole Digital Equipment Corporation, and the
    > engineers who created it (in the Unix/Ultrix division in R&D, that's
    > how they scaped the wrath of management) could have been fired for
    > writing software that ran on TCP/IP.


    I think the story has been spiced up a bit.

    AltaVista's crawler was not the first. Several crawler based search
    engines existed before AltaVista (Lycos is probably the most wellknown
    name).

    And TCP/IP was completely mainstream within DEC in 1995.

    Arne
    Arne Vajhøj, Dec 6, 2007
    #11
  12. On Dec 5, 9:35 pm, Arne Vajhøj <> wrote:
    > Ramon F Herrera wrote:
    > > On Dec 5, 1:30 am, Ramon F Herrera <> wrote:
    > >> Historic Tip: The first crawler was developed for Altavista, and its
    > >> name was "Scooter".

    >
    > >> Altavista itself was developed by a Skunk works type of operation,
    > >> against management and company policy (it was also against company
    > >> policy to place Internet e-mail addresses in DEC employees business
    > >> cards as they were against TCP/IP in favor of DECnet).

    >
    > > I forgot to add that when the time came to sell the company, Altavista
    > > was worth more than the whole Digital Equipment Corporation, and the
    > > engineers who created it (in the Unix/Ultrix division in R&D, that's
    > > how they scaped the wrath of management) could have been fired for
    > > writing software that ran on TCP/IP.

    >
    > I think the story has been spiced up a bit.
    >


    Note to self: you have got to stop following Einstein's advice (you
    know: the one about the relative importance of imagination vs.
    knowledge).

    > AltaVista's crawler was not the first. Several crawler based search
    > engines existed before AltaVista (Lycos is probably the most wellknown
    > name).
    >


    Thanks for keeping me honest.

    > And TCP/IP was completely mainstream within DEC in 1995.


    True. My recollection goes back to the 90-93 period.

    By 1995 even the "visionary" from Redmond had the Internet epiphany.

    -Ramon
    Ramon F Herrera, Dec 6, 2007
    #12
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