Where do good C++ teams exist ?

Discussion in 'C++' started by Diwa, Dec 26, 2006.

  1. Diwa

    Diwa Guest

    Hi All,

    This is not a C++ technical question, hence
    this is an off-topic post. But it is C++
    related and posted only to this group.

    Suppose, today a building like Empire State
    building or Petronas Towers is to be built.
    The architect designing and the company/team
    building this would be somebody who is an
    expert in this and has experience with
    construting buildings of comparable sizes.

    Now suppose a huge, reliable, scalable and a
    good performance software system is to be
    built in C++. Here again, the architect
    and the team which implements it would be
    somebody who knows which architecture would
    be best for which software module for the
    given requirement. Obviously, here again,
    the team would have experience in constructing
    similar size software projects earlier.

    Once the team has built this software system,
    they move on to build another such system
    for somebody else.

    My question is how do I get to become a part
    of such C++ teams which implement one
    challenging project after another. (Obviously,
    large systems would not comprise of only C++.)

    Do these kind of C++ team (maybe warriors would
    be right word :)) really exist in the first
    place?

    Trying to know such teams through networking
    may take a long time. And the same goes by
    trying to check on job sites. Even sites like
    topcoder.com seem to consist mostly of one
    man army.

    Thanks
    Diwakar
     
    Diwa, Dec 26, 2006
    #1
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  2. Diwa

    Guest

    Diwa wrote:
    > Hi All,
    >> Do these kind of C++ team (maybe warriors would

    > be right word :)) really exist in the first
    > place?
    > Thanks
    > Diwakar

    Yes such teams do exists. However, they are rarely branded this way,
    since "build me C++ project" is rarely a motivating factor for
    financial backing. More often, these teams are assembled for a project,
    such as "build a High Frequency Trading System" or "build a Web Page
    Content Indexer" or "port my Office Application to a handheld." These
    teams would use C++ as their main tool of choice.

    But the message is that to join the top talent, you need more than C++
    -- you need to know how to apply C++ in that industry.

    What to do? First, find an industry where C++ is widely used -- I work
    in Finance, but I started my C++ coding experience in Embedded Systems.
    As a counter example, e-commerce does not have that much C++ going on.
    Then join a company in that field ( you can get a feel for what
    industries use C++ by scouring want ads).
    Join a Open Source Project related to that area that uses C++, this
    will show your prospective employer you are serious about the business
    as well as just C++ coding. But when you do get an interview, don't
    approach them like they should do you a favor and give you a chance.
    Show them what you are going to bring to the table, that hiring you is
    doing them a favor.

    Good luck!!
     
    , Dec 26, 2006
    #2
    1. Advertising

  3. Diwa

    Earl Purple Guest

    wrote:
    > But the message is that to join the top talent, you need more than C++
    > -- you need to know how to apply C++ in that industry.
    >
    > What to do? First, find an industry where C++ is widely used -- I work
    > in Finance, but I started my C++ coding experience in Embedded Systems.
    > As a counter example, e-commerce does not have that much C++ going on.
    > Then join a company in that field ( you can get a feel for what
    > industries use C++ by scouring want ads).
    > Join a Open Source Project related to that area that uses C++, this
    > will show your prospective employer you are serious about the business
    > as well as just C++ coding. But when you do get an interview, don't
    > approach them like they should do you a favor and give you a chance.
    > Show them what you are going to bring to the table, that hiring you is
    > doing them a favor.


    Yeah, show them that you know how to write proper
    comp.lang.c++-approved C++, that obeys all the rules in the
    Sutter-Alexandrescu book and that everyone else is incompetent because
    they don't follow these rules. That will make you very very popular...

    Actually there are two types - programmers who know a bit of business
    and business-people who know a bit of programming. And it's the latter
    whose programs usually run according to the spec because they know what
    the spec is. Amazing how bad they are at documentation too, at least in
    describing things in a way an ordinary person would understand.

    Strange also how often the development team meetings are discussing
    business issues and not discussing what class libraries they have just
    created.

    Or perhaps I've just been unlucky and worked for all the wrong
    companies.
     
    Earl Purple, Dec 27, 2006
    #3
  4. Diwa

    Diwa Guest

    wrote:

    > Diwa wrote:
    > > Hi All,
    > >> Do these kind of C++ team (maybe warriors would

    > > be right word :)) really exist in the first
    > > place?


    > Yes such teams do exists. However, they are rarely branded this way,
    > since "build me C++ project" is rarely a motivating factor for
    > financial backing. More often, these teams are assembled for a project,
    > such as "build a High Frequency Trading System" or "build a Web Page
    > Content Indexer" or "port my Office Application to a handheld." These
    > teams would use C++ as their main tool of choice.


    You are right here. But what happens to the team once
    the system has been built. Most would probably stay
    around to do maintenance of that. Where are the teams
    which move on to build another C++ system ?

    > Good luck!!


    Thanks.
     
    Diwa, Dec 28, 2006
    #4
  5. Diwa

    Diwa Guest

    Earl Purple wrote:
    > wrote:
    > > as well as just C++ coding. But when you do get an interview, don't
    > > approach them like they should do you a favor and give you a chance.
    > > Show them what you are going to bring to the table, that hiring you is
    > > doing them a favor.

    >
    > Yeah, show them that you know how to write proper
    > comp.lang.c++-approved C++, that obeys all the rules in the
    > Sutter-Alexandrescu book and that everyone else is incompetent because
    > they don't follow these rules. That will make you very very popular...
    >


    Thats a good tip. One can become as good as he wants in C++
    by reading various books, news groups, magazines and staying
    in touch with other C++ developers. But there is a limit to what
    one can achieve as an individual. But a team of C++ developers
    can develop much more by leveraging each other's experiences.
    The C++ developers that I know are mostly in maintenance of
    existing software. Probably, because there is less non-product
    green-field projects in C++ compared to lets say in C# or Java.
    What I was trying to know was are there C++ teams which stay
    together one contract project after another contract project ?
     
    Diwa, Dec 28, 2006
    #5
  6. Diwa

    smnoff Guest

    Trying to find even a single C++ developer is difficult as programming is
    not 100% science or 100% like architecting a building. There are set
    standards, city ordinances for a building and that area of knowledge is well
    known for thousands of years. And likewise, there are very few buildings
    that fall down.

    However, most programming and IT project fail, at least 70% fail according
    to Forrester research and others. I say at least 90% fail.
    Programming is very new and it's very creative. Hence, it's like trying to
    find an great artist or musician that's also a good engineer.

    Most of the those that hang out in user groups aren't all that great. Those
    that write books aren't all that great either as they spend all their time
    writing books as oppose to code in the real world. Sort of like an author
    that writes book on how to be a great actor, of which, means zip in the real
    world. Just because you goto a schools of acting doesn't mean you are going
    to make it big.

    Those that are any good are actually doing the work to get the job done and
    just don't have the time to "hang out" anywhere. Do you see anyone else in
    other professions having all the time to just hang out doing the same exact
    thing at work? I don't. But, I do see lots of talented people doing
    something completely different than their day job just to get away or do
    something different.

    The more effective way, IMO, to find a good programmer to actually see the
    work they have personally written. Not some resume, or some meaningless
    certification as test and that stuff are hardly useful in a creative world.




    "Diwa" <> wrote in message
    news:...
    > Hi All,
    >
    > This is not a C++ technical question, hence
    > this is an off-topic post. But it is C++
    > related and posted only to this group.
    >
    > Suppose, today a building like Empire State
    > building or Petronas Towers is to be built.
    > The architect designing and the company/team
    > building this would be somebody who is an
    > expert in this and has experience with
    > construting buildings of comparable sizes.
    >
    > Now suppose a huge, reliable, scalable and a
    > good performance software system is to be
    > built in C++. Here again, the architect
    > and the team which implements it would be
    > somebody who knows which architecture would
    > be best for which software module for the
    > given requirement. Obviously, here again,
    > the team would have experience in constructing
    > similar size software projects earlier.
    >
    > Once the team has built this software system,
    > they move on to build another such system
    > for somebody else.
    >
    > My question is how do I get to become a part
    > of such C++ teams which implement one
    > challenging project after another. (Obviously,
    > large systems would not comprise of only C++.)
    >
    > Do these kind of C++ team (maybe warriors would
    > be right word :)) really exist in the first
    > place?
    >
    > Trying to know such teams through networking
    > may take a long time. And the same goes by
    > trying to check on job sites. Even sites like
    > topcoder.com seem to consist mostly of one
    > man army.
    >
    > Thanks
    > Diwakar
    >
     
    smnoff, Dec 28, 2006
    #6
  7. Diwa

    JoeC Guest

    wrote:
    > Diwa wrote:
    > > Hi All,
    > >> Do these kind of C++ team (maybe warriors would

    > > be right word :)) really exist in the first
    > > place?
    > > Thanks
    > > Diwakar

    > Yes such teams do exists. However, they are rarely branded this way,
    > since "build me C++ project" is rarely a motivating factor for
    > financial backing. More often, these teams are assembled for a project,
    > such as "build a High Frequency Trading System" or "build a Web Page
    > Content Indexer" or "port my Office Application to a handheld." These
    > teams would use C++ as their main tool of choice.
    >
    > But the message is that to join the top talent, you need more than C++
    > -- you need to know how to apply C++ in that industry.
    >
    > What to do? First, find an industry where C++ is widely used -- I work
    > in Finance, but I started my C++ coding experience in Embedded Systems.
    > As a counter example, e-commerce does not have that much C++ going on.
    > Then join a company in that field ( you can get a feel for what
    > industries use C++ by scouring want ads).
    > Join a Open Source Project related to that area that uses C++, this
    > will show your prospective employer you are serious about the business
    > as well as just C++ coding. But when you do get an interview, don't
    > approach them like they should do you a favor and give you a chance.
    > Show them what you are going to bring to the table, that hiring you is
    > doing them a favor.
    >
    > Good luck!!


    That is excellent advice. I am trying to get to that level where I
    have enough skill to contribute to a project. For me it is confidence.
    I am self taught and I keep on trying to improve my skills. The
    problem with being self taught is that it is dificult to guage my skill
    and accomplishments. I just finished my second version of a board game
    written in win32/C++. It works well but the major flaw is how I store
    my units creating memory leaks.
     
    JoeC, Dec 29, 2006
    #7
  8. Diwa

    JoeC Guest

    Earl Purple wrote:
    > wrote:
    > > But the message is that to join the top talent, you need more than C++
    > > -- you need to know how to apply C++ in that industry.
    > >
    > > What to do? First, find an industry where C++ is widely used -- I work
    > > in Finance, but I started my C++ coding experience in Embedded Systems.
    > > As a counter example, e-commerce does not have that much C++ going on.
    > > Then join a company in that field ( you can get a feel for what
    > > industries use C++ by scouring want ads).
    > > Join a Open Source Project related to that area that uses C++, this
    > > will show your prospective employer you are serious about the business
    > > as well as just C++ coding. But when you do get an interview, don't
    > > approach them like they should do you a favor and give you a chance.
    > > Show them what you are going to bring to the table, that hiring you is
    > > doing them a favor.

    >
    > Yeah, show them that you know how to write proper
    > comp.lang.c++-approved C++, that obeys all the rules in the
    > Sutter-Alexandrescu book and that everyone else is incompetent because
    > they don't follow these rules. That will make you very very popular...


    Is that sarcasm or good advice? I am not in the industry and one day
    would like to be.
    >
    > Actually there are two types - programmers who know a bit of business
    > and business-people who know a bit of programming. And it's the latter
    > whose programs usually run according to the spec because they know what
    > the spec is. Amazing how bad they are at documentation too, at least in
    > describing things in a way an ordinary person would understand.


    I have other skills and I know how to program. I focus on creating war
    games because that is what I know. I am just getting the basics of
    creating a game and finally got a version to work pretty well although
    it has its flaws. I can write programs dealing with other things but I
    choose things that keeps me interested.
    >
    > Strange also how often the development team meetings are discussing
    > business issues and not discussing what class libraries they have just
    > created.
    >
    > Or perhaps I've just been unlucky and worked for all the wrong
    > companies.


    Programming is not an end in itself but a tool to reach a goal. I
    often get boored programming things with no purpose but find it more
    exciting and intersting when I am solving problems because you need and
    idea and concept before I can write anything.
     
    JoeC, Dec 29, 2006
    #8
  9. Diwa

    Earl Purple Guest

    JoeC wrote:
    > >
    > > Yeah, show them that you know how to write proper
    > > comp.lang.c++-approved C++, that obeys all the rules in the
    > > Sutter-Alexandrescu book and that everyone else is incompetent because
    > > they don't follow these rules. That will make you very very popular...

    >
    > Is that sarcasm or good advice? I am not in the industry and one day
    > would like to be.


    I am in the industry and have been for 10 years or so. Before that I
    was working with C++ for 3 years but in a research environment at a
    university.

    It depends on whether they rate themselves as great C++ programmers. If
    they do then they don't want you pointing out their inadequacies and
    showing up yourself as a supposed "expert" over them. If they already
    know their C++ skills are limited and that their main skills lie
    elsewhere whilst accepting that you are the C++ expert, they are more
    likely to accept your advice, although obviously you still have to be
    tactful.

    The likelihood is that they have a system that already works and they
    want someone to maintain and enhance it, not to completely rewrite it,
    although so often that is the best approach because it is totally
    unstructured.

    > > Actually there are two types - programmers who know a bit of business
    > > and business-people who know a bit of programming. And it's the latter
    > > whose programs usually run according to the spec because they know what
    > > the spec is. Amazing how bad they are at documentation too, at least in
    > > describing things in a way an ordinary person would understand.

    >
    > I have other skills and I know how to program. I focus on creating war
    > games because that is what I know. I am just getting the basics of
    > creating a game and finally got a version to work pretty well although
    > it has its flaws. I can write programs dealing with other things but I
    > choose things that keeps me interested.


    If you ever decide to start your own business and employ another
    programmer who is perhaps a more expert programmer than yourself then
    be sure to communicate the specification very well to them.

    Also, let the expert start the project. The project infrastructure is
    best left to the expert, but so often they are brought in to pick up
    the pieces later on.

    > > Strange also how often the development team meetings are discussing
    > > business issues and not discussing what class libraries they have just
    > > created.
    > >
    > > Or perhaps I've just been unlucky and worked for all the wrong
    > > companies.

    >
    > Programming is not an end in itself but a tool to reach a goal. I
    > often get boored programming things with no purpose but find it more
    > exciting and intersting when I am solving problems because you need and
    > idea and concept before I can write anything.


    I know that. I was expressing the point that someone who knows
    everything about programming but nothing about anything else will
    possibly find their options limited.
     
    Earl Purple, Dec 29, 2006
    #9
  10. Diwa

    Earl Purple Guest

    Diwa wrote:

    > The C++ developers that I know are mostly in maintenance of
    > existing software. Probably, because there is less non-product
    > green-field projects in C++ compared to lets say in C# or Java.
    > What I was trying to know was are there C++ teams which stay
    > together one contract project after another contract project ?


    Unfortunately that is the case and it is not what I want to spend my
    lifetime
    doing. I want to work on new "green field" projects, and so I may well
    have
    to move out of C++ to do so even though C++ is my favourite programming
    language.

    The alternative is to leave employment as an employee and work on my
    own projects. Even in this case C++ might not be the only language I
    use because there are aspects for which other languages are better
    suited. C++ isn't always the answer to everything.
     
    Earl Purple, Dec 29, 2006
    #10
  11. Diwa

    Earl Purple Guest

    smnoff wrote:
    > Trying to find even a single C++ developer is difficult as programming is
    > not 100% science or 100% like architecting a building. There are set
    > standards, city ordinances for a building and that area of knowledge is well
    > known for thousands of years. And likewise, there are very few buildings
    > that fall down.
    >
    > However, most programming and IT project fail, at least 70% fail according
    > to Forrester research and others. I say at least 90% fail.
    > Programming is very new and it's very creative. Hence, it's like trying to
    > find an great artist or musician that's also a good engineer.
    >
    > Most of the those that hang out in user groups aren't all that great. Those
    > that write books aren't all that great either as they spend all their time
    > writing books as oppose to code in the real world. Sort of like an author
    > that writes book on how to be a great actor, of which, means zip in the real
    > world. Just because you goto a schools of acting doesn't mean you are going
    > to make it big.
    >
    > Those that are any good are actually doing the work to get the job done and
    > just don't have the time to "hang out" anywhere. Do you see anyone else in
    > other professions having all the time to just hang out doing the same exact
    > thing at work? I don't. But, I do see lots of talented people doing
    > something completely different than their day job just to get away or do
    > something different.
    >
    > The more effective way, IMO, to find a good programmer to actually see the
    > work they have personally written. Not some resume, or some meaningless
    > certification as test and that stuff are hardly useful in a creative world.


    Projects fail usually because of bad market research, not because of
    bad programmers.
    Many programs work reasonably well even though they are very badly
    written (which unfortunately then makes it harder to get permission to
    fix them).
     
    Earl Purple, Dec 29, 2006
    #11
  12. Diwa

    Tinku Guest

    The real warriors are making games out there!


    Earl Purple wrote:
    > smnoff wrote:
    > > Trying to find even a single C++ developer is difficult as programming is
    > > not 100% science or 100% like architecting a building. There are set
    > > standards, city ordinances for a building and that area of knowledge is well
    > > known for thousands of years. And likewise, there are very few buildings
    > > that fall down.
    > >
    > > However, most programming and IT project fail, at least 70% fail according
    > > to Forrester research and others. I say at least 90% fail.
    > > Programming is very new and it's very creative. Hence, it's like trying to
    > > find an great artist or musician that's also a good engineer.
    > >
    > > Most of the those that hang out in user groups aren't all that great. Those
    > > that write books aren't all that great either as they spend all their time
    > > writing books as oppose to code in the real world. Sort of like an author
    > > that writes book on how to be a great actor, of which, means zip in the real
    > > world. Just because you goto a schools of acting doesn't mean you are going
    > > to make it big.
    > >
    > > Those that are any good are actually doing the work to get the job done and
    > > just don't have the time to "hang out" anywhere. Do you see anyone else in
    > > other professions having all the time to just hang out doing the same exact
    > > thing at work? I don't. But, I do see lots of talented people doing
    > > something completely different than their day job just to get away or do
    > > something different.
    > >
    > > The more effective way, IMO, to find a good programmer to actually see the
    > > work they have personally written. Not some resume, or some meaningless
    > > certification as test and that stuff are hardly useful in a creative world.

    >
    > Projects fail usually because of bad market research, not because of
    > bad programmers.
    > Many programs work reasonably well even though they are very badly
    > written (which unfortunately then makes it harder to get permission to
    > fix them).
     
    Tinku, Dec 29, 2006
    #12
  13. Diwa

    smnoff Guest

    I would "venture" and say that the programmer should also have a
    responsibility in knowing if the market research makes sense and blindly
    listening to what it/they say. If the program fails for whatever reason,
    "too hard to use, slow, incompatible, etc.", the programmer will have to
    take some of the blame, period.

    Just saying, "I was just following orders or the specifications" is another
    lame excuse. That's like a contractor following the architect's plans on a
    two legged stool. The programmer/developer is supposed to design and build
    the thing so it make sense that the programmer/developer should be the
    ultimate authority. Blaming it on someone else or the specs is just another
    way to avoid accountability.


    "Earl Purple" <> wrote in message
    news:...
    >
    > smnoff wrote:
    >> Trying to find even a single C++ developer is difficult as programming is
    >> not 100% science or 100% like architecting a building. There are set
    >> standards, city ordinances for a building and that area of knowledge is
    >> well
    >> known for thousands of years. And likewise, there are very few buildings
    >> that fall down.
    >>
    >> However, most programming and IT project fail, at least 70% fail
    >> according
    >> to Forrester research and others. I say at least 90% fail.
    >> Programming is very new and it's very creative. Hence, it's like trying
    >> to
    >> find an great artist or musician that's also a good engineer.
    >>
    >> Most of the those that hang out in user groups aren't all that great.
    >> Those
    >> that write books aren't all that great either as they spend all their
    >> time
    >> writing books as oppose to code in the real world. Sort of like an author
    >> that writes book on how to be a great actor, of which, means zip in the
    >> real
    >> world. Just because you goto a schools of acting doesn't mean you are
    >> going
    >> to make it big.
    >>
    >> Those that are any good are actually doing the work to get the job done
    >> and
    >> just don't have the time to "hang out" anywhere. Do you see anyone else
    >> in
    >> other professions having all the time to just hang out doing the same
    >> exact
    >> thing at work? I don't. But, I do see lots of talented people doing
    >> something completely different than their day job just to get away or do
    >> something different.
    >>
    >> The more effective way, IMO, to find a good programmer to actually see
    >> the
    >> work they have personally written. Not some resume, or some meaningless
    >> certification as test and that stuff are hardly useful in a creative
    >> world.

    >
    > Projects fail usually because of bad market research, not because of
    > bad programmers.
    > Many programs work reasonably well even though they are very badly
    > written (which unfortunately then makes it harder to get permission to
    > fix them).
    >
     
    smnoff, Dec 29, 2006
    #13
  14. Diwa

    JoeC Guest

    Earl Purple wrote:
    > Diwa wrote:
    >
    > > The C++ developers that I know are mostly in maintenance of
    > > existing software. Probably, because there is less non-product
    > > green-field projects in C++ compared to lets say in C# or Java.
    > > What I was trying to know was are there C++ teams which stay
    > > together one contract project after another contract project ?

    >
    > Unfortunately that is the case and it is not what I want to spend my
    > lifetime
    > doing. I want to work on new "green field" projects, and so I may well
    > have
    > to move out of C++ to do so even though C++ is my favourite programming
    > language.
    >
    > The alternative is to leave employment as an employee and work on my
    > own projects. Even in this case C++ might not be the only language I
    > use because there are aspects for which other languages are better
    > suited. C++ isn't always the answer to everything.


    That is true, I have worked with Perl, Basic, Pascal and started
    getting into Java. Java is pritty confusing to the beginner although
    getting past the basic setup of a program it seems very similiar to
    C++. What other langes are good to learn?
     
    JoeC, Dec 29, 2006
    #14
  15. Diwa

    JoeC Guest

    Earl Purple wrote:
    > JoeC wrote:
    > > >
    > > > Yeah, show them that you know how to write proper
    > > > comp.lang.c++-approved C++, that obeys all the rules in the
    > > > Sutter-Alexandrescu book and that everyone else is incompetent because
    > > > they don't follow these rules. That will make you very very popular...

    > >
    > > Is that sarcasm or good advice? I am not in the industry and one day
    > > would like to be.

    >
    > I am in the industry and have been for 10 years or so. Before that I
    > was working with C++ for 3 years but in a research environment at a
    > university.
    >
    > It depends on whether they rate themselves as great C++ programmers. If
    > they do then they don't want you pointing out their inadequacies and
    > showing up yourself as a supposed "expert" over them. If they already
    > know their C++ skills are limited and that their main skills lie
    > elsewhere whilst accepting that you are the C++ expert, they are more
    > likely to accept your advice, although obviously you still have to be
    > tactful.
    >
    > The likelihood is that they have a system that already works and they
    > want someone to maintain and enhance it, not to completely rewrite it,
    > although so often that is the best approach because it is totally
    > unstructured.


    I find from my games and projects, it is far more work to fix and
    expand than it is to totally rewrite using some objects from old one
    that fit in. Still my projects are learning tools first but still they
    have the purpose I give them. I am the customer and the devloper at
    the same time. I choose a project that is slightly above my level
    figure out the most challenging parts but still challenges creep up in
    unexpected places. In my game I added a bunch of graphic displays, it
    was pretty easy but small details in game play required pretty
    significant re-programming. Somthing like a computer opponent is far
    outside of what I can create and I am still pondering the basic concept
    of that addtion.

    Because my game evloved more thant it was planned I had way too much
    stuff in the winproc loop and in my re-wite put much of that in
    functions and objects. Still with the re-write and upgrade, I still
    have much room for imporvment.
    >
    > > > Actually there are two types - programmers who know a bit of business
    > > > and business-people who know a bit of programming. And it's the latter
    > > > whose programs usually run according to the spec because they know what
    > > > the spec is. Amazing how bad they are at documentation too, at least in
    > > > describing things in a way an ordinary person would understand.

    > >
    > > I have other skills and I know how to program. I focus on creating war
    > > games because that is what I know. I am just getting the basics of
    > > creating a game and finally got a version to work pretty well although
    > > it has its flaws. I can write programs dealing with other things but I
    > > choose things that keeps me interested.

    >
    > If you ever decide to start your own business and employ another
    > programmer who is perhaps a more expert programmer than yourself then
    > be sure to communicate the specification very well to them.
    >
    > Also, let the expert start the project. The project infrastructure is
    > best left to the expert, but so often they are brought in to pick up
    > the pieces later on.


    I hope my creation and devlopment of my own projects will better enable
    me to work with programmers who are better than I. Still I am eager to
    learn. Most of what I see is questions on syntax getting some small
    block of code to work. Much also seems like it is for abstract
    assignments. I am more interested on how to design a fairly complex
    system and how larger programs are created.
    >
    > > > Strange also how often the development team meetings are discussing
    > > > business issues and not discussing what class libraries they have just
    > > > created.
    > > >
    > > > Or perhaps I've just been unlucky and worked for all the wrong
    > > > companies.

    > >
    > > Programming is not an end in itself but a tool to reach a goal. I
    > > often get boored programming things with no purpose but find it more
    > > exciting and intersting when I am solving problems because you need and
    > > idea and concept before I can write anything.

    >
    > I know that. I was expressing the point that someone who knows
    > everything about programming but nothing about anything else will
    > possibly find their options limited.


    I find these kind of discussions very informative. In reading this
    tread I get hints of office space but I get that in my current job but
    at least at Innotech all of their bosses has the same message and
    direction.

    I when I am looking for another job I will have had 20 years in the
    Army with a college degree. I speak several languages and have
    knowlege of security issues and I am a programmer.
     
    JoeC, Dec 29, 2006
    #15
  16. Diwa

    Kaz Kylheku Guest

    Diwa wrote:
    > Now suppose a huge, reliable, scalable and a
    > good performance software system is to be
    > built in C++.


    Not gonna happen. End of story.

    What we can do is assign a numeric weight to each of those
    requirements:

    huge - 2
    reliable - 2
    scalable - 1
    performance -1

    Now, the total weight is 6.

    You must remove enough requirements to bring the weight to 4.

    Then you can do it in C++.
     
    Kaz Kylheku, Dec 29, 2006
    #16
  17. Diwa

    BobR Guest

    JoeC wrote in message...
    >
    >That is true, I have worked with Perl, Basic, Pascal and started
    >getting into Java. Java is pritty confusing to the beginner although
    >getting past the basic setup of a program it seems very similiar to
    >C++. What other langes are good to learn?


    Well, you have the popular high level languages covered. How about Assembler?
    You just never know when you might be required to program a 1k EEPROM! <G>
    (Gads, I wonder if you could even find a chip that small these days?!? (like
    lookin' for a 20gig HD!)).

    --
    Bob R
    POVrookie
     
    BobR, Dec 30, 2006
    #17
  18. Hi Diwa!
    Diwa wrote:
    > You are right here. But what happens to the team once
    > the system has been built. Most would probably stay
    > around to do maintenance of that. Where are the teams
    > which move on to build another C++ system ?


    In most places I have worked, there was always a mix between
    maintenance and new software creation. ... and, personally, I
    am and always have been involved mostly with new creation
    (mostly being called upon for maintenance only for the tricky bits).
    However, once a system is build, some people move on to the
    next one while others stay behind and do maintenance. Of
    course, for software which doesn't need much oiling maintenance
    actually means extending or changing the system. Except that it
    is work within some existing code base, it is not that much
    different to initial system creation anyway. Sure, there are
    occasional bug fixes but these tend to be relatively rare
    compared to adapting systems to new requirements.

    Good luck, Denise!
     
    Denise Kleingeist, Dec 30, 2006
    #18
  19. Diwa

    JoeC Guest

    BobR wrote:
    > JoeC wrote in message...
    > >
    > >That is true, I have worked with Perl, Basic, Pascal and started
    > >getting into Java. Java is pritty confusing to the beginner although
    > >getting past the basic setup of a program it seems very similiar to
    > >C++. What other langes are good to learn?

    >
    > Well, you have the popular high level languages covered. How about Assembler?
    > You just never know when you might be required to program a 1k EEPROM! <G>
    > (Gads, I wonder if you could even find a chip that small these days?!? (like
    > lookin' for a 20gig HD!)).
    >
    > --
    > Bob R
    > POVrookie


    I have looked into assembler and have some information on it. I do
    have some compliers that allow for inline assebmly. From my reading I
    have a question. Are intel and AMD chips the same or Assembly
    programming? I really need a dummies book to start give me the
    assembler show me how to use it and may be I will be able to learn some
    assembly.

    I would like to learn some assembly but I would have to start fromt he
    basics and a hello world program is a major undertaking.
     
    JoeC, Dec 30, 2006
    #19
  20. Diwa wrote:

    > Once the team has built this software system,
    > they move on to build another such system
    > for somebody else.


    Consultants maybe?
     
    Mathias Gaunard, Dec 30, 2006
    #20
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